Forums » Pantheon Classes

Get rid of the pointless Class per Race restrictions

    • 150 posts
    March 25, 2022 1:35 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    Absolutely... even though one Dojo refused to share their teachings with another based on their origin (racism) somehow that knowledge still spread around the world... proving that information is shared between races even if a single sensei is racist.  Using that logic, how can one explain Archai, Skar, Dark Myr and Humans all knowing the same obscure fighting style (because they won't be different based on race), but Archai can't be clerics or rangers or a few other classes?  Is it perhaps an art that originated in Skargol and was stolen by the humans... and now there are human sensei's in all of these different cities; and if that is the case, why are there no human rangers to teach other races?



    Certain races could simply view a class/vocation as being beneath them. In the world of Norrath erudites were erudite, barbarians were barbaric, and humans were, well, inhumane. Both of the fantasy races were akin to humans, but their differences were immediately recognizable, shown in what they could become and equip, but also in what they could or would not choose. Even in the rare event that barbarians could equip a robe, it wouldn't show as anything more than a colored tunic. Even when dressed in a full suit of plate armor, erudite paladins and shadow knights still appeared to be wearing robes. One race/culture was more physical and rustic, the other more intellectual and refined. 

    Exceptions work in a fantasy setting like this, but if everyone can gain access to them, over time they will no longer be seen as exceptional. Most everyone will have their very own versions, treating them as collectibles, lore be damned.

    Darch said:

    otherwise I feel the restrictions based on what some people refer to as "lore" are actually more akin to "racism".  There is no actual "lore" (read: history) that would exclude a race from learning a skill set from another race; physical restritctions - sure (maybe gnomes can't wear warrior gear or Ogres aren't small enough to blend into a crowd to pick pockets to be recruited by a rogue guild)... otherwise just call it racism, not history (lore).  And to our point... even boundaries of racism are crossed when it comes to one's ability to learn something from someone from another culture.



    Examples from Star Trek (wikipedia):

    Vulcans are depicted as similar in appearance to humans, as budget constraints in The Original Series did not allow for elaborate make-up.[3] All Vulcans have arched and upswept eyebrows and pointy ears. Vulcans are typically depicted as stronger, faster, and longer-lived than humans. There are instances of them living over 220 years. Having evolved on a desert world, Vulcans can survive without water for longer periods than humans. Vulcans can also go without sleep for as long as two weeks. Vulcans are known as logical beings who have removed emotions from their daily lives. Vulcans are telepaths. Beginning in the original series, the character Spock was able to "mind meld" (see below) by touching another being and share thoughts.[21] Vulcans have also displayed telepathy at great distance and through walls.[22]

    Klingons are swarthy humanoids characterized by prideful ruthlessness and brutality. Klingons practice feudalism and authoritarianism, with a warrior caste relying on slave labor. The Klingons adhere to a strict code of honor, similar to feudal Mongolian or Japanese customs, although some, such as Gowron, appear to struggle to live up to their ideals. Their society is based on war and combat; ritual suicide is often preferred over living life as a crippled warrior, and may allow a warrior to die with honor. To be captured rather than killed in battle brings dishonor to not only the captive but his descendants. Death is depicted as a time for celebration, not grief.[33] Klingons are depicted as a spiritual people. According to their legends, Klingons slew their own gods.[15] 

    Assigning VR classes to both, without any overlap...

    Vulcan: Monk, Enchanter, Wizard, Summoner
    Klingon: Warrior, Dire Lord, Paladin, Shaman


    This post was edited by Leevolen at March 25, 2022 1:52 PM PDT
    • 2138 posts
    April 5, 2022 8:09 AM PDT

    I am in favor of class restrictions.

    It makes the player learn the class in the manner of that class. In other words, If you select a gnome you learn to fight in the gnomish way. Imagine: starting out in your city and you have other  casters, maybe a rogue, no healers or tanks. You learn to rely -and succeed- on heavy DPS. Your strategies are unique and "gnomish" in nature but you are not aware of that, that is just...that is life, that is how things are and they are not, otherwise and you have done mighty things and so, you (ad)venture forth.

    You learn one way to play, and then meeting others with those classes, you learn another way to play. The game is the same game, but a new game because you have to adapt your strategies to mesh with the new capabilities you did not have. 

    You meet gangly, taller beings, with speckles around their bio-vents they call "teeth". They seem pleased that we do not exhibit a facial stretch they call a "smile". We are puzzled but they like our majik and summoned food. They instantly took to the rogue that never learned the habit of speech but instead expresses by the sudden changing of masks. We cowered in fear when more than one monster came into the battle, our new friends threw their bodies at them, uncaring. They roared at us to burn-burn-burn! and so we did but we had to rest. They looked at us in fear although we did not know why and then laughed raucously at the litter of bodies. They called themselves -Skar. We had to learn how to fight with them, different than how we were used to, they bring more than one...but those ones are weaker and many.

     

     

    • 30 posts
    November 9, 2022 12:18 PM PST

    Been a while....... :)

    Citing the lore is not a reason that is a "because we say so" bad excuse.

    Gnomes get Rogue, that is a melee class.

    Either way they basically use their mask and clothes to form themselves. Why not use armor to form yourself.
    I also doubt that the damage/heal system in the game will work differently for them compared to the other races. So if they in the game mechanics take damage the same way as others and get healed the same way. There is no reason to not give them access to a healing class.
    Also a living being have free will and can pursue whatever they fancy.

    Races should get access to at least one of the basic class archetype tank/heal/mage/scout/etc.
    • 363 posts
    November 9, 2022 12:37 PM PST
    Can we just lock this thread? This guy is arguing in circles and clearly the large majority of players are in favor of lore-based class restrictions.
    • 949 posts
    November 10, 2022 8:20 AM PST

    Flossie said: Can we just lock this thread? This guy is arguing in circles and clearly the large majority of players are in favor of lore-based class restrictions.

    Agreed - It's borderline trolling at this point since the restrictions have been greatly revamped and are actually more akin to actually being lore-based now.

    • 30 posts
    November 15, 2022 3:00 PM PST

    Hm... can't delete posts guess I should have edited instead of rewrite.....     :)


    This post was edited by Revener at November 15, 2022 3:02 PM PST
    • 30 posts
    November 15, 2022 3:01 PM PST

    Darch said:

    Flossie said: Can we just lock this thread? This guy is arguing in circles and clearly the large majority of players are in favor of lore-based class restrictions.

    Agreed - It's borderline trolling at this point since the restrictions have been greatly revamped and are actually more akin to actually being lore-based now.



    So it is trolling just because I prefer one way and you another? Oh no someone have another opinion than me lets lock the thread, what is next a ban? seriously. :)

    /sigh

    If I spammed or something I could understand, but I have not posted in ages since I don't do forums much nowadays. :/

    No matter if you like it or not, it is a valid opinion and it actually make sense. Since living being are not copies of eachother and also it is not more work for the devs.

     

     

    • 949 posts
    November 16, 2022 8:46 AM PST

    My comment had nothing to do with liking your opinion or not... In fact, I thought you had a very valid point (which I defended for many months because I debated the same thing for literally years within the community).  The devs have addressed it repeatedly, as have many of the people in these forums.  They changed the race/class matrix a few months back to better reflect a meaningful (the opposite of pointless) matrix.

    The part I consider "borderline trolling" is repeatedly asking people to answer the same question, and has been not only addressed extensively in this forums, (as I said, some of us have made this arguement for years) but addressed AND changed by the devs.  Your question was heard, answered, and had an actual change implemented.  There's really no reason to keep asking because they've given very definitive answers at this point.

    • 30 posts
    December 10, 2022 5:51 AM PST

    Darch said:

    My comment had nothing to do with liking your opinion or not... In fact, I thought you had a very valid point (which I defended for many months because I debated the same thing for literally years within the community).  The devs have addressed it repeatedly, as have many of the people in these forums.  They changed the race/class matrix a few months back to better reflect a meaningful (the opposite of pointless) matrix.

    The part I consider "borderline trolling" is repeatedly asking people to answer the same question, and has been not only addressed extensively in this forums, (as I said, some of us have made this arguement for years) but addressed AND changed by the devs.  Your question was heard, answered, and had an actual change implemented.  There's really no reason to keep asking because they've given very definitive answers at this point.



    Ok well, TBH I do not read that much because it takes time. But most of the answers in here have not been answers only opinions that think that a race is a stereotype and can ony be a certain thing.
    Nowhere have I seen an argument that make a good reason as to why class restrictions are a good thing. Usually it is because the devs say so, or I want it hat way because it have been like that in XXX game that I like so they are used to it.

    Either way , one is allowed to voice ones opinion until the game is released, especially since I have not been anywhere close spamming. :) 

    And "repeatedly asking people to asnswer the same question" ? Have I even asked a question ?

    And class matrix changes implented, well.... Halfling lost warrior, that is worse, Gnome still don't have a fighter or healer and a similar argument can be made for other races.
    There is seriously no real reason to not let people play a race they prefer no matter the class.
    Are people really that used to stereotype restrictions set by old games, that they really want to make the game worse others. That is rather petty.  :)

    • 949 posts
    December 12, 2022 1:29 PM PST

    @Revener,

    I don't think that the restrictions are based on people wanting stereotypes from old games, but instead want restrictions based on game lore.  The devs explained quite well why they took Warrior from halflings and instead gave them Dire Lord, and why gnomes have no healer or tank available... if anything, stereotypes from other games is the opposite of why these race/class restrictions are the way they are, because other games in fact do allow things like gnome and halfling warriors and clerics.  I understand that an argument can be made for any race to be any class, but the lore (and the devs) are arguing otherwise based on either physical, cultural, spiritual or mental limitations of how the races come to be on Pantheon.

    Add:  I'm sorry I didn't direct you to other sites that better explain the dev's explanations for their race/class decisions, but I am not good at searching for those things like some others in the community are, and it is highly probable that it is not contained within these forums (but I am 100% certain that I have seen them at one point or another).  I hope that some of the other people in the community are able to point out the streams where devs had done things like explain how their vision of the Warrior is the emobdiment of a living battering ram sheathed in steel, while the halfling (and gnome) are creatures of the lithe and nimble forms or lifestyles, but the halflings having strong connections to the chaos of The Dire (and the gnomes having no actual physical forms at all (making for quite an ineffective battering ram lol)).


    This post was edited by Darch at December 12, 2022 6:05 PM PST
    • 30 posts
    December 12, 2022 6:09 PM PST

    Darch said:

    @Revener,

    I don't think that the restrictions are based on people wanting stereotypes from old games, but instead want restrictions based on game lore.  The devs explained quite well why they took Warrior from halflings and instead gave them Dire Lord, and why gnomes have no healer or tank available... if anything, stereotypes from other games is the opposite of why these race/class restrictions are the way they are, because other games in fact do allow things like gnome and halfling warriors and clerics.  I understand that an argument can be made for any race to be any class, but the lore (and the devs) are arguing otherwise based on either physical, cultural, spiritual or mental limitations of how the races come to be on Pantheon.


    The devs write the Lore, so they can write whatever they fancy. Putting pointless restrictions in the lore is just limiting the game.


    Btw the way they described Gnomes would make them awsome tank since they can basically be the armour. Also if Gnomes are different and can't have healers they should also not be able to be healed by healers, for it to make sense. That would not work out that well. :) ;)

    Either way, in the end it is a game for alot of people, letting them play whatever race they want with the class they want is hurting no one. Instead of annoying players with dumb restriction.
    I always play short races and my main charactes are usually tank and healer, I am also an altoholic and given time play all classes to the level cap. Being forced to play races I don't care about is irritating.

    Also every single time other people here have explained why they want restrictions or why they make sense, they basically just say lore or state arguments that contradict themselves and use arguments that actually support no restriction. It may be a game but the characters we play are living being in a fantasy world, they have free will. If the "wrong" race want to pick up a club and "bonk" monsters that is their choice. Not allowing that makes the game world both less immersive and dynamic, just stale and flat.

    Just because someone that decide the lore got in their head that it have to be a certain way,  is not an argument. In the end players have to play the game and stay playing the game and they should want all the players they can get, to stay alivea long time.

    It is also frustrating when people just say no you are wrong and the ony arguments are Lore or I want it this way.  Well me wanting it another way is an equally valid opinion, just because somepeople opinions are the same as the devs does not make it more valid.
    We should be able to discuss this until the game is released and after that without getting accused of trolling or pissed on.

    Sadly I don't spend much time on forums anymore, time flies fast enough as it is. :)

    Also not reading what I just wrote before posting. Whats the fun in that just ramble on. :)


    • VR Staff
    • 543 posts
    December 14, 2022 8:11 AM PST

    Your opinion is completely valid.  There are definitely different schools of thought on the race/class combo and there is no real "right" answer.  As long as everyone is respectful, we want to hear these opinions.

    Thanks guys for keeping it civil.

    • 89 posts
    February 24, 2023 4:55 PM PST

    Since the intention is that any class that performs a role will be equally proficient at the role AND players will scream if different races with the same class don't perform equally, having race/class combos disallowed is the only viable justification to have different races in the game...

    • 150 posts
    February 25, 2023 3:30 AM PST

    Revener said:

    Btw the way they described Gnomes would make them awsome tank since they can basically be the armour.



    Cool way of thinking about it. Essentially gnome warriors would be the rough equivalent of sentient suits (EQ). And, judging by the art, their masks could be enhanced through smithing to have higher AC which would offset any inability to wear helmets, assuming more open face options couldn't be made to work. Considering the race itself was imprisoned, they might have an aversion to being confined in heavy armor but then they might also be right at home too, so to speak. Their warrior banners could even be made to resemble the robes seen in the race's art, so that they wouldn't be so far removed from their culture in terms of style.


    This post was edited by Leevolen at February 25, 2023 4:11 AM PST
    • 949 posts
    February 27, 2023 7:35 PM PST

    Leevolen said:

    Revener said:

    Btw the way they described Gnomes would make them awsome tank since they can basically be the armour.



    Cool way of thinking about it. Essentially gnome warriors would be the rough equivalent of sentient suits (EQ). And, judging by the art, their masks could be enhanced through smithing to have higher AC which would offset any inability to wear helmets, assuming more open face options couldn't be made to work. Considering the race itself was imprisoned, they might have an aversion to being confined in heavy armor but then they might also be right at home too, so to speak. Their warrior banners could even be made to resemble the robes seen in the race's art, so that they wouldn't be so far removed from their culture in terms of style.

    That is a "cool" concept, but I believe that all of the classes available to gnomes rely on, or are heavily influenced by, arcane magic (which neither the Warrior or Paladin or any healers rely on) and the Dire Lord relies heavily upon manipulating their body's essence (which I would assume gnomes don't have).  I could "personally" see gnomes being Dire Lords, but it isn't up to me, and I'm "ok" with gnomes being the arcane race.

    Again, an argument can be made for or against any choice, but there needs to be lines drawn somewhere.

    • 150 posts
    February 28, 2023 6:39 AM PST

    Darch said:

    That is a "cool" concept, but I believe that all of the classes available to gnomes rely on, or are heavily influenced by, arcane magic (which neither the Warrior or Paladin or any healers rely on) and the Dire Lord relies heavily upon manipulating their body's essence (which I would assume gnomes don't have).  I could "personally" see gnomes being Dire Lords, but it isn't up to me, and I'm "ok" with gnomes being the arcane race.

    Again, an argument can be made for or against any choice, but there needs to be lines drawn somewhere.



    For sure, just something to consider since gnome rogues have already crossed the line and some of the race/class combinations have been shuffled around. 

    • 373 posts
    March 7, 2023 6:27 AM PST

    I get the passion of wanting to play a race and class combo. I'll share my opinion only because Savanja said it's wanted.

    The resevoire cloth shouldn't count as any form of iron or metal armor so I'm not one for re-writing the lore to say that there is also resevoir steel (as cool as that sounds). I really like the idea that a characters race matters, in the context of this game. Also, as far as gnome rogues having "crossed the line," perhaps they have only defined it. That may be the limit of how much of a melee character they can manage to be.


    This post was edited by Tigersin at March 7, 2023 3:07 PM PST
    • 2 posts
    July 2, 2023 7:09 AM PDT
    No thank you. Keep the class and race combos limited :)
    • 19 posts
    July 15, 2023 4:43 PM PDT

    I feel if we had an ALL/ALL then the Racial PASSIVES would need to not be there. Otherwise you end up with things like in WoW where EVERYONE is HUMAN because DPS. It would turn into something simular. Humans being the only exception, Races generally (IMO) have a focus in socitiy. Look at us today, we use to be hunter/gathers, but not really the case anymore MOST of us dont wonder around anymore. Now, if at some point due to an interaction, thru story, moving, taking in refugees, then that Racial culture could change and possibly introduce new 'WAYS".  But in general, we stick to what we know where we start.  What i think you would be looking for that could work (maybe not in this case) but Starting as a Race with BASIC combat and magic ability, run through your 'Life" before choosing to leave. When you reach the next place you find other NPC's that are vising the town where you could learn the ways they follow (aka choosing a CLASS during gameplay that could not be changed).  This could involve learning 2-3 abilites (TEMP) to play with on a target. Get to far from the NPC, you lose them, to keep people from trying to cheese abilties for XP. Anyways sorry, my 2 cents. Def in favor of class to race ratio, though EVERY race would need to have acces to 1 style tank and healer at min. Warrior is hard to argue due to it being generally a BASIC type of combat, and all races need to protect themselves. IMO =P

    • 8 posts
    July 17, 2023 4:15 PM PDT

    Nahhh... Don't need some wimpy classes on the roster.
    The boys and I ready to run up on all the magic elves and halflings with them OGRES an SKAR squad!

     

    Dragon Age: Origins - Darkspawn Chronicles | Dragon age games, Dragon age  series, Dragon age

    •  As long as they got PVP in the game. And if they want them boys in there then they will find a way.
    • Keep the  OGRES and SKAR pure!


    This post was edited by SkarloRD at July 17, 2023 4:16 PM PDT
    • 72 posts
    August 1, 2023 10:54 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    I prefer to play in a game world with rich and meaningful lore complete with notably different races/cultures. Allowing players to break from that makes most lore around the races meaningless. 

     

    I give this a thumbs up.

    • 86 posts
    August 20, 2023 5:59 AM PDT

    I prefer they keep the race/class retrictions in place. Seeing things like a Skar Cleric just seems silly to me.

    • 80 posts
    September 14, 2023 12:24 PM PDT

    Racial restrictions significantly add to immersion. Having a bunch or Ogre and Skar Paladins running around, cheapens the entire setting and makes me feel like im playing a video game, instead of entering another world. If certain races lack crucial roles, then place their starter areas closer to races that can fill those roles.

    • 949 posts
    October 2, 2023 10:32 AM PDT

    If you want lore immersion from character race selection, make the game race/faction-based PvP - otherwise that (lore immersion) is an absolutely trivial reason for the restrictions.  I can appreciate the current race/class matrix, but not because of lore immersion.  It doesn't make sense to have a Skar Cleric, or Ogre Wizard, similar to how it use to not make sense NOT having elven clerics or Paladins... but I think they made some sensible and neccessary adjustments from the original matrix (when this post was originally created).  

    My "personal" changes to the current matrix would include adding:

    Ogre: Ranger, Necromancer
    Archai: Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue
    Dark Myr: Druid, Ranger
    Elf: Monk
    Gnome: Bard
    Halfling: Shaman
    Skar: Druid (Ogres can be Druids and Skar can be Rangers, but neither race can be both?!?)
    Dwarf: Monk, Shaman

    But like I said... I'm good with their current matrix (adding more races to Paladin, Cleric and Ranger was a huge).  It would just be nice if every race had more than 30-50% accessibility to jobs when one race has 100% access though.

    • 33 posts
    October 2, 2023 11:09 AM PDT

    RedGang said:

    Racial restrictions significantly add to immersion.

    This.