Darch said:Absolutely... even though one Dojo refused to share their teachings with another based on their origin (racism) somehow that knowledge still spread around the world... proving that information is shared between races even if a single sensei is racist. Using that logic, how can one explain Archai, Skar, Dark Myr and Humans all knowing the same obscure fighting style (because they won't be different based on race), but Archai can't be clerics or rangers or a few other classes? Is it perhaps an art that originated in Skargol and was stolen by the humans... and now there are human sensei's in all of these different cities; and if that is the case, why are there no human rangers to teach other races?
Darch said:
otherwise I feel the restrictions based on what some people refer to as "lore" are actually more akin to "racism". There is no actual "lore" (read: history) that would exclude a race from learning a skill set from another race; physical restritctions - sure (maybe gnomes can't wear warrior gear or Ogres aren't small enough to blend into a crowd to pick pockets to be recruited by a rogue guild)... otherwise just call it racism, not history (lore). And to our point... even boundaries of racism are crossed when it comes to one's ability to learn something from someone from another culture.
Assigning VR classes to both, without any overlap...
Vulcan: Monk, Enchanter, Wizard, Summoner
Klingon: Warrior, Dire Lord, Paladin, Shaman
I am in favor of class restrictions.
It makes the player learn the class in the manner of that class. In other words, If you select a gnome you learn to fight in the gnomish way. Imagine: starting out in your city and you have other casters, maybe a rogue, no healers or tanks. You learn to rely -and succeed- on heavy DPS. Your strategies are unique and "gnomish" in nature but you are not aware of that, that is just...that is life, that is how things are and they are not, otherwise and you have done mighty things and so, you (ad)venture forth.
You learn one way to play, and then meeting others with those classes, you learn another way to play. The game is the same game, but a new game because you have to adapt your strategies to mesh with the new capabilities you did not have.
You meet gangly, taller beings, with speckles around their bio-vents they call "teeth". They seem pleased that we do not exhibit a facial stretch they call a "smile". We are puzzled but they like our majik and summoned food. They instantly took to the rogue that never learned the habit of speech but instead expresses by the sudden changing of masks. We cowered in fear when more than one monster came into the battle, our new friends threw their bodies at them, uncaring. They roared at us to burn-burn-burn! and so we did but we had to rest. They looked at us in fear although we did not know why and then laughed raucously at the litter of bodies. They called themselves -Skar. We had to learn how to fight with them, different than how we were used to, they bring more than one...but those ones are weaker and many.
Been a while....... :)
Flossie said: Can we just lock this thread? This guy is arguing in circles and clearly the large majority of players are in favor of lore-based class restrictions.
Agreed - It's borderline trolling at this point since the restrictions have been greatly revamped and are actually more akin to actually being lore-based now.
Hm... can't delete posts guess I should have edited instead of rewrite..... :)
Darch said:Flossie said: Can we just lock this thread? This guy is arguing in circles and clearly the large majority of players are in favor of lore-based class restrictions.Agreed - It's borderline trolling at this point since the restrictions have been greatly revamped and are actually more akin to actually being lore-based now.
My comment had nothing to do with liking your opinion or not... In fact, I thought you had a very valid point (which I defended for many months because I debated the same thing for literally years within the community). The devs have addressed it repeatedly, as have many of the people in these forums. They changed the race/class matrix a few months back to better reflect a meaningful (the opposite of pointless) matrix.
The part I consider "borderline trolling" is repeatedly asking people to answer the same question, and has been not only addressed extensively in this forums, (as I said, some of us have made this arguement for years) but addressed AND changed by the devs. Your question was heard, answered, and had an actual change implemented. There's really no reason to keep asking because they've given very definitive answers at this point.
Darch said:My comment had nothing to do with liking your opinion or not... In fact, I thought you had a very valid point (which I defended for many months because I debated the same thing for literally years within the community). The devs have addressed it repeatedly, as have many of the people in these forums. They changed the race/class matrix a few months back to better reflect a meaningful (the opposite of pointless) matrix.
The part I consider "borderline trolling" is repeatedly asking people to answer the same question, and has been not only addressed extensively in this forums, (as I said, some of us have made this arguement for years) but addressed AND changed by the devs. Your question was heard, answered, and had an actual change implemented. There's really no reason to keep asking because they've given very definitive answers at this point.
@Revener,
I don't think that the restrictions are based on people wanting stereotypes from old games, but instead want restrictions based on game lore. The devs explained quite well why they took Warrior from halflings and instead gave them Dire Lord, and why gnomes have no healer or tank available... if anything, stereotypes from other games is the opposite of why these race/class restrictions are the way they are, because other games in fact do allow things like gnome and halfling warriors and clerics. I understand that an argument can be made for any race to be any class, but the lore (and the devs) are arguing otherwise based on either physical, cultural, spiritual or mental limitations of how the races come to be on Pantheon.
Add: I'm sorry I didn't direct you to other sites that better explain the dev's explanations for their race/class decisions, but I am not good at searching for those things like some others in the community are, and it is highly probable that it is not contained within these forums (but I am 100% certain that I have seen them at one point or another). I hope that some of the other people in the community are able to point out the streams where devs had done things like explain how their vision of the Warrior is the emobdiment of a living battering ram sheathed in steel, while the halfling (and gnome) are creatures of the lithe and nimble forms or lifestyles, but the halflings having strong connections to the chaos of The Dire (and the gnomes having no actual physical forms at all (making for quite an ineffective battering ram lol)).
Darch said:@Revener,
I don't think that the restrictions are based on people wanting stereotypes from old games, but instead want restrictions based on game lore. The devs explained quite well why they took Warrior from halflings and instead gave them Dire Lord, and why gnomes have no healer or tank available... if anything, stereotypes from other games is the opposite of why these race/class restrictions are the way they are, because other games in fact do allow things like gnome and halfling warriors and clerics. I understand that an argument can be made for any race to be any class, but the lore (and the devs) are arguing otherwise based on either physical, cultural, spiritual or mental limitations of how the races come to be on Pantheon.
Btw the way they described Gnomes would make them awsome tank since they can basically be the armour. Also if Gnomes are different and can't have healers they should also not be able to be healed by healers, for it to make sense. That would not work out that well. :) ;)
Either way, in the end it is a game for alot of people, letting them play whatever race they want with the class they want is hurting no one. Instead of annoying players with dumb restriction.
I always play short races and my main charactes are usually tank and healer, I am also an altoholic and given time play all classes to the level cap. Being forced to play races I don't care about is irritating.
Also every single time other people here have explained why they want restrictions or why they make sense, they basically just say lore or state arguments that contradict themselves and use arguments that actually support no restriction. It may be a game but the characters we play are living being in a fantasy world, they have free will. If the "wrong" race want to pick up a club and "bonk" monsters that is their choice. Not allowing that makes the game world both less immersive and dynamic, just stale and flat.
Just because someone that decide the lore got in their head that it have to be a certain way, is not an argument. In the end players have to play the game and stay playing the game and they should want all the players they can get, to stay alivea long time.
It is also frustrating when people just say no you are wrong and the ony arguments are Lore or I want it this way. Well me wanting it another way is an equally valid opinion, just because somepeople opinions are the same as the devs does not make it more valid.
We should be able to discuss this until the game is released and after that without getting accused of trolling or pissed on.
Sadly I don't spend much time on forums anymore, time flies fast enough as it is. :)
Also not reading what I just wrote before posting. Whats the fun in that just ramble on. :)
Since the intention is that any class that performs a role will be equally proficient at the role AND players will scream if different races with the same class don't perform equally, having race/class combos disallowed is the only viable justification to have different races in the game...
Revener said:Btw the way they described Gnomes would make them awsome tank since they can basically be the armour.
Leevolen said:Revener said:Btw the way they described Gnomes would make them awsome tank since they can basically be the armour.
Cool way of thinking about it. Essentially gnome warriors would be the rough equivalent of sentient suits (EQ). And, judging by the art, their masks could be enhanced through smithing to have higher AC which would offset any inability to wear helmets, assuming more open face options couldn't be made to work. Considering the race itself was imprisoned, they might have an aversion to being confined in heavy armor but then they might also be right at home too, so to speak. Their warrior banners could even be made to resemble the robes seen in the race's art, so that they wouldn't be so far removed from their culture in terms of style.
That is a "cool" concept, but I believe that all of the classes available to gnomes rely on, or are heavily influenced by, arcane magic (which neither the Warrior or Paladin or any healers rely on) and the Dire Lord relies heavily upon manipulating their body's essence (which I would assume gnomes don't have). I could "personally" see gnomes being Dire Lords, but it isn't up to me, and I'm "ok" with gnomes being the arcane race.
Again, an argument can be made for or against any choice, but there needs to be lines drawn somewhere.
Darch said:That is a "cool" concept, but I believe that all of the classes available to gnomes rely on, or are heavily influenced by, arcane magic (which neither the Warrior or Paladin or any healers rely on) and the Dire Lord relies heavily upon manipulating their body's essence (which I would assume gnomes don't have). I could "personally" see gnomes being Dire Lords, but it isn't up to me, and I'm "ok" with gnomes being the arcane race.
Again, an argument can be made for or against any choice, but there needs to be lines drawn somewhere.
I get the passion of wanting to play a race and class combo. I'll share my opinion only because Savanja said it's wanted.
The resevoire cloth shouldn't count as any form of iron or metal armor so I'm not one for re-writing the lore to say that there is also resevoir steel (as cool as that sounds). I really like the idea that a characters race matters, in the context of this game. Also, as far as gnome rogues having "crossed the line," perhaps they have only defined it. That may be the limit of how much of a melee character they can manage to be.
I feel if we had an ALL/ALL then the Racial PASSIVES would need to not be there. Otherwise you end up with things like in WoW where EVERYONE is HUMAN because DPS. It would turn into something simular. Humans being the only exception, Races generally (IMO) have a focus in socitiy. Look at us today, we use to be hunter/gathers, but not really the case anymore MOST of us dont wonder around anymore. Now, if at some point due to an interaction, thru story, moving, taking in refugees, then that Racial culture could change and possibly introduce new 'WAYS". But in general, we stick to what we know where we start. What i think you would be looking for that could work (maybe not in this case) but Starting as a Race with BASIC combat and magic ability, run through your 'Life" before choosing to leave. When you reach the next place you find other NPC's that are vising the town where you could learn the ways they follow (aka choosing a CLASS during gameplay that could not be changed). This could involve learning 2-3 abilites (TEMP) to play with on a target. Get to far from the NPC, you lose them, to keep people from trying to cheese abilties for XP. Anyways sorry, my 2 cents. Def in favor of class to race ratio, though EVERY race would need to have acces to 1 style tank and healer at min. Warrior is hard to argue due to it being generally a BASIC type of combat, and all races need to protect themselves. IMO =P
Nahhh... Don't need some wimpy classes on the roster.
The boys and I ready to run up on all the magic elves and halflings with them OGRES an SKAR squad!
Racial restrictions significantly add to immersion. Having a bunch or Ogre and Skar Paladins running around, cheapens the entire setting and makes me feel like im playing a video game, instead of entering another world. If certain races lack crucial roles, then place their starter areas closer to races that can fill those roles.
If you want lore immersion from character race selection, make the game race/faction-based PvP - otherwise that (lore immersion) is an absolutely trivial reason for the restrictions. I can appreciate the current race/class matrix, but not because of lore immersion. It doesn't make sense to have a Skar Cleric, or Ogre Wizard, similar to how it use to not make sense NOT having elven clerics or Paladins... but I think they made some sensible and neccessary adjustments from the original matrix (when this post was originally created).
My "personal" changes to the current matrix would include adding:
Ogre: Ranger, Necromancer
Archai: Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue
Dark Myr: Druid, Ranger
Elf: Monk
Gnome: Bard
Halfling: Shaman
Skar: Druid (Ogres can be Druids and Skar can be Rangers, but neither race can be both?!?)
Dwarf: Monk, Shaman
But like I said... I'm good with their current matrix (adding more races to Paladin, Cleric and Ranger was a huge). It would just be nice if every race had more than 30-50% accessibility to jobs when one race has 100% access though.