Forums » Pantheon Classes

Get rid of the pointless Class per Race restrictions

    • 1860 posts
    February 12, 2021 1:06 PM PST

    Darch said:

      Now, if it were an actual "job" where you "got paid" and not a video "game" that you "pay for" I could better appreciate the philosophy of "earning" a reward - but when people are literally "paying to play a game", further forcing them to "earn" a basic function is broken.  This is why it has a lot to do with money - a subscriber has to pay more (monthly subscription fees) before they get the same "reward" of being able to play a race/class combo when that should be included in their subscription.

    Things you achieve (or 'earn' as you say) in a game are levels, "achievements", items, skill/talent points, and bonds with friends.  You shouldn't have to "earn" access to game features available to a level 1 character (race/class is a character creation feature) strictly regulated by how much you can play instead of how good you are."

    Add:  This is obviously just my opinion, but I believe I am not alone in this perspective.

    Again, none of this has anything to do with standard features.  It is not a "basic function".  It is an optional system.  Nothing you are saying elludes to it being optional but that is how it is presented by VR.  Both in the way the perks work and the way it is balanced will be minimal so as to be an optional system.

    There is a disconnect in your thought process.  I know these are silly but it's a point:

    A player gets to allot stats at level 1, that doesn't mean he can't earn more stats later.

    A player starts with a newbie sword, that doesn't mean he can't earn other swords later.

    A player starts as a certain race/class, that doesn't mean he can't earn other race/class options later.  

     

    It is a system that is used in other games with success.  Most people have at least a little experience with some type of "prestige class" system that allows you to unlock other class/race options through play I would think?  It might be an uncommon system but, not that rare...  It has been proven that it doesn't turn people off like you are claiming.

    In the end it likely won't unlock new race/class combos anyway.  It was only mentioned in passing by joppa.

    I'm curious about how you feel about progeny other than the possibility of the new race/class options as a perk?  But I guess that is way off topic...

     

     

     


    This post was edited by philo at February 12, 2021 1:18 PM PST
    • 945 posts
    February 12, 2021 3:40 PM PST

    philo said:

    Again, none of this has anything to do with standard features.  It is not a "basic function".  It is an optional system.  Nothing you are saying elludes to it being optional but that is how it is presented by VR.  Both in the way the perks work and the way it is balanced will be minimal so as to be an optional system.

    Selecting a race and class is NOT optional (it is mandatory, which makes it a basic function of the game); unless you opt not to play.  Otherwise, you must select one if you want to play.

    I agree that there are other systems that have "legacy" or "bloodline" mechanics that "unlock" the use of other races, but those all include micro transactions and pay to win options at the core of the game (for MMOs).  It may work flawlessly in single player games but they will lose subs in droves in an MMO that doesn't allow basic race/class combos.  The only way to prevent that is to NEVER allow anyone to have other race/class combos that aren't available with the purchase of the game and initial character creatoin - or allow race/class changes (not creating a whole new character) in the future (which is an awful ultimatum).  The progeny system unlocking race restrictions (if that ends up being a feature) is counterintuitive in a game where "your choices should matter" - having to choose to play something that you don't want to play just so you can eventually unlock the ability to play that (while most other people get to play exactly what they want to play).


    This post was edited by Darch at February 12, 2021 3:55 PM PST
    • 1860 posts
    February 13, 2021 7:19 PM PST

    Darch said:

    philo said:

    Again, none of this has anything to do with standard features.  It is not a "basic function".  It is an optional system.  Nothing you are saying elludes to it being optional but that is how it is presented by VR.  Both in the way the perks work and the way it is balanced will be minimal so as to be an optional system.



    I agree that there are other systems that have "legacy" or "bloodline" mechanics that "unlock" the use of other races, but those all include micro transactions and pay to win options at the core of the game (for MMOs).  It may work flawlessly in single player games but they will lose subs in droves in an MMO that doesn't allow basic race/class combos. 

    Microtransactions don't have anything to do with it.  To think that prestige classes have to be intertwined with a cash shop makes me question your experience? They work just fine in mmos. I don't know why you would think it is single player only lol? I played a remort system in LotR/GDragon on bulletin boards prior to the internet, it is not a new system.

    I've had a lot of conversations about progeny over the years.  Whenever there is confusion like this it has always been because the person in the discussion has limited experience with these type of systems and doesn't understand how they play out.

    This is very obviously the case here because there is absolutely no reason to think that a remort type of system that unlocks new race/class combos has anything to do with a cash shop unless that is the only experience you have.

    I'm not going to continue this.  I just ask you to wait and see how it plays out before giving your opinion on it because im 100% sure it will be different than you think.


    This post was edited by philo at February 13, 2021 7:22 PM PST
    • 30 posts
    April 9, 2021 1:11 PM PDT

    Crowsinger said:

    Iksar said:

    I prefer to play in a game world with rich and meaningful lore complete with notably different races/cultures. Allowing players to break from that makes most lore around the races meaningless. 

    I agree with this. The richness of meaningful lore is part of what is missing from so many games right now.

     


    In what way do arbitrary race/class restriction make the lore more meaningful? it make the game less dynamic.

    Either way each race don't have to get all classes but they should at least get one of each type.




    This post was edited by Revener at November 9, 2022 12:08 PM PST
    • 30 posts
    May 14, 2021 9:24 AM PDT

    Ezrael said:

    No thanks, I prefer a game where lore creates restrictions and different options. It's more immersive and enjoyable.

    If you want all race / all class then there are other games you can go and play, stop trying to dive into a game that wants to be different and try to make it the same as all the others.


    You mean less immersive, since there are certain restriction that do not make sense like class/race. Guess the races are just stereotypse of them selves with no free will and no one of a certain race in 10000 years would want to try something else.


    This post was edited by Revener at July 29, 2021 7:05 AM PDT
    • 150 posts
    May 14, 2021 11:03 AM PDT

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    • 945 posts
    February 18, 2022 12:15 PM PST

    Why even have race/class options at all?  Just make all Warriors Ogres, all Clerics Human and all Druids Halflings... like those other lame games that have 0 imagination.  If we're going to have racial discrimination, lets not half-ass it. 

    What's that word for "the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities?"

    • 17 posts
    February 21, 2022 10:27 AM PST

    I rather like the class and race restrictions myself as the lore is important to me AND I like knowing my class of choice is a little special in that it can't be selected. Maybe they could have more options than what they are now, but it is my hope it stays rather confined in some instances. No ogre monks please. It would invalidate the story for me I feel.

     

    Regarding some folks thinking lore isn't a good reason, i'd have to respectfully disagree - lore ties into immersion. Using the ogre example from a prior post, even if that ogre wanted to be more than just average, there is a history of violence in that culture, a druid or a ranger from another race will likely not want to help an ogre because of prior conflicts or growing up in a society that thinks very poorly of ogres or other stereotypically "evil" races, let alone help them achieve mastery over nature. Changing that isn't just changing the lore, its erasing human/elf/ogre/etc... nature and borders on creating a Star Trek utopia where there is no conflict and everyone shares. I guess i'd find that quite boring.

    Some racial bonuses might be too exceptional with certain classes as well, I don't know if that type of balancing plays a role in the restrictions, but might make a big difference (there are already many conversations about "best" class based on racial bonuses)

    @ Darch 

    "a system like that 'indirectly' punishes the casual player by catering to the hardcore player."

    I'd point out that there are a LOT of people in between those 2 catagories, and we are all paying the same subscription fee for this game. If my wife has more time to play because she works from home or I choose to not play as much that week, it is not cheating, she isn't power gaming or hardcore, nor am I being punished, that's just life.

     

    I also don't see how not having access to an Elf Paladin or Gnome Warrior is a big insult? (You should congratulate that person for their achievement)

    How much story or content could possibly be tied to that occupation past the initial zones? And even if there was content I get that you don't, why should you be given the same rewards for little to none of the work I put into it? That's directly punishing me for how i've chosen to use what free time I do have outside of real life, and we're both paying the same monthly fee for Pantheon.

    Chin up, I feel you are worried too much about something that will likely not make you level a character "reluctantly".  :)

     

     

     

    • 945 posts
    February 21, 2022 2:01 PM PST

    Squirlypete said:

    @ Darch 

    "a system like that 'indirectly' punishes the casual player by catering to the hardcore player."

    I'd point out that there are a LOT of people in between those 2 catagories, and we are all paying the same subscription fee for this game. If my wife has more time to play because she works from home or I choose to not play as much that week, it is not cheating, she isn't power gaming or hardcore, nor am I being punished, that's just life.

    I also don't see how not having access to an Elf Paladin or Gnome Warrior is a big insult? (You should congratulate that person for their achievement)

    How much story or content could possibly be tied to that occupation past the initial zones? And even if there was content I get that you don't, why should you be given the same rewards for little to none of the work I put into it? That's directly punishing me for how i've chosen to use what free time I do have outside of real life, and we're both paying the same monthly fee for Pantheon.

    Chin up, I feel you are worried too much about something that will likely not make you level a character "reluctantly".  :)

    I respectfully disagree that there is a wide spectrum of players between casual and not casual.  If you're not hard core, then you are casual.  I'd argue that if you play less than 30hrs a week, you are casual (I believe the study was somewhere around 22hrs) and if you play more than that you are considered not casual.  The fact that we are paying the same subscription should warrant access to the same standard features (character creation is a standard MMO feature).  I didn't say content/feature blocking was an "insult", I said it was an "indirect punishment".  Allowing access to standard features (race selection) should not be a "reward" UNLESS it allows you to change your current race (which would be stupid) as to not force a player to create a brand new character.  FORCING a player to delete/shelve or otherwise start a new character is a punishment for some.  In some games, starting over is the risk/punishment for dying.  Basic game content that we pay the same fee to access should not be a "reward" that I get access to and you can't (without starting over).  "Rewards" should be something that you and I both can get if we put in the "effort" to take down an NPC or complete game content - creating a basic character should not be a "reward" granted only to players who can put in X hours... UNLESS the subscription was based on hourly rates.  Then by all means - reward those who pay more.  Forcing players to delete their characters just to play the race/class that they want is an indirect punishment.  I'm not sure if you were aware of the fact that you will also have to pay for additional character slots - and the race/class restrictions are basically a way to persuade players to create more characters.  But again, not everyone wants to play multiple characters.  And to use your example, if anyone is not "reluctant" to play a Dwarven Paladin and Elven Fighter just so they can level a new Elven Paladin, I would say that person is neither casual nor your average player.


    This post was edited by Darch at February 21, 2022 2:31 PM PST
    • 1860 posts
    February 21, 2022 3:33 PM PST

    Darch said:

    Squirlypete said:

    @ Darch 

    "a system like that 'indirectly' punishes the casual player by catering to the hardcore player."

    I'd point out that there are a LOT of people in between those 2 catagories, and we are all paying the same subscription fee for this game. If my wife has more time to play because she works from home or I choose to not play as much that week, it is not cheating, she isn't power gaming or hardcore, nor am I being punished, that's just life.

    I also don't see how not having access to an Elf Paladin or Gnome Warrior is a big insult? (You should congratulate that person for their achievement)

    How much story or content could possibly be tied to that occupation past the initial zones? And even if there was content I get that you don't, why should you be given the same rewards for little to none of the work I put into it? That's directly punishing me for how i've chosen to use what free time I do have outside of real life, and we're both paying the same monthly fee for Pantheon.

    Chin up, I feel you are worried too much about something that will likely not make you level a character "reluctantly".  :)

    I respectfully disagree that there is a wide spectrum of players between casual and not casual.  If you're not hard core, then you are casual.  I'd argue that if you play less than 30hrs a week, you are casual (I believe the study was somewhere around 22hrs) and if you play more than that you are considered not casual.  The fact that we are paying the same subscription should warrant access to the same standard features (character creation is a standard MMO feature).  I didn't say content/feature blocking was an "insult", I said it was an "indirect punishment".  Allowing access to standard features (race selection) should not be a "reward" UNLESS it allows you to change your current race (which would be stupid) as to not force a player to create a brand new character.  FORCING a player to delete/shelve or otherwise start a new character is a punishment for some.  In some games, starting over is the risk/punishment for dying.  Basic game content that we pay the same fee to access should not be a "reward" that I get access to and you can't (without starting over).  "Rewards" should be something that you and I both can get if we put in the "effort" to take down an NPC or complete game content - creating a basic character should not be a "reward" granted only to players who can put in X hours... UNLESS the subscription was based on hourly rates.  Then by all means - reward those who pay more.  Forcing players to delete their characters just to play the race/class that they want is an indirect punishment.  I'm not sure if you were aware of the fact that you will also have to pay for additional character slots - and the race/class restrictions are basically a way to persuade players to create more characters.  But again, not everyone wants to play multiple characters.  And to use your example, if anyone is not "reluctant" to play a Dwarven Paladin and Elven Fighter just so they can level a new Elven Paladin, I would say that person is neither casual nor your average player.


    We likely wont see progeny on release anyway...and even then, the chances that new race/class options will be unlocked as a perk is also unlikely.

    We get that you disagree with there being a difference between a standard race/class option and a prestige class/race type of option that has to be earned. We disagree about enjoying this type of system.


    This post was edited by philo at February 21, 2022 3:45 PM PST
    • 945 posts
    February 22, 2022 4:29 AM PST

    philo said:

     

    We likely wont see progeny on release anyway...and even then, the chances that new race/class options will be unlocked as a perk is also unlikely.

    We get that you disagree with there being a difference between a standard race/class option and a prestige class/race type of option that has to be earned. We disagree about enjoying this type of system.

    Absolutely bud.  We can all have our own opinions.  But when you say "we disagree" you speak for yourself and a minority of others... because I'm on the side of the O.P. and many others with delusions of grandeur (granted, not all have delusions of leveling up multiple characters and in fact like that feature).  But we can all have our own opinions and the devs will do whatever they see fit regardless of our differing opinion based on what they want the game to be; and I'm ok with that.  I just don't like to be lead by a carrot on a stick only to wind up not being able to eat the carrot because I don't have time when I finally have it in my hands.  (i.e. I'm likely not leveling multiple characters with the intent of having multiple "mains").  I agree that we likely won't see progeny on release (if I even live long enough to see release), but I believe the primary goal of the progeny system will be unlocking features for future created characters as descendants (a.k.a. progeny) of that original character to promote multiple character generation and replayability of content.  I'm pretty sure this was mentioned by one of the devs. 

    I'd also point out that the O.P. stated getting rid of the "pointless" restrictions.  I think people get that Ogres may not be Wizards or Rogues, or Skar may not be Paladins or Enchanters, but Elves can't be clerics and Myr can't be Rangers?  Pointless.

     

    • 945 posts
    February 22, 2022 5:40 AM PST

    Squirlypete said:

    Regarding some folks thinking lore isn't a good reason, i'd have to respectfully disagree - lore ties into immersion. Using the ogre example from a prior post, even if that ogre wanted to be more than just average, there is a history of violence in that culture, a druid or a ranger from another race will likely not want to help an ogre because of prior conflicts or growing up in a society that thinks very poorly of ogres or other stereotypically "evil" races, let alone help them achieve mastery over nature. Changing that isn't just changing the lore, its erasing human/elf/ogre/etc... nature and borders on creating a Star Trek utopia where there is no conflict and everyone shares. I guess i'd find that quite boring.

    FYI - Ogres can be Druids.  Lore is absolutely irrelevant for "most" cases.  Maybe for "classes" who's existences/origins are steeped in lore, like perhaps the Paladin - BUT not this game where the Paladin's origin equates to "I use to be a Cleric but it was too hard, so I now I take the easier route and kill stuff out of vengeance".  The "races" have actual lore - but "racial" history has very little to do with one's physical or mental capabilities... one's attributes/skills should determine that.  If an Ogre's INT is too low to be a Necromancer, then so be it - but don't tell me that they just don't want to weild powerful magic to destroy their enemies... because they can be SHM too.  Unless you are saying that Ogres are spiritual and have enough affinity with nature to be a Druid, and militant enough to be a warrior... but for some reason they can't figure out how to be a Ranger simply because of their lore(?)  If using your own example of racism and the view of "other races are racist and won't teach outside of their race", then are all of the different races going to have completely different skills (i.e. Dark Myr, Human, Skar and Archai Monks know the same martial arts?) or would they only teach each other how to be Monks, but tell the Archai to piss off when they want to learn to be an Enchanter?  Or are the Archai not smart enough to be Enchanters but can be Wizards... while the Dwarves are only charismatic enough to be Enchanters, but not smart enough to be Wizards?  I'd agree with the whole racist route if each race had their own complete skill set, but we all know that isn't the case.  In a world where the same piece of armor that fits a Halfling Druid will fit an Ogre Druid... and then maybe a Dark Myr Druid, the same Halfling can't figure out how to be a Shaman and nobody wants to teach them because everyone knows Halflings are only good for stealing... and being Druids, and Rangers and Warriors... but when it comes to Shaman, they're just too small or something... that's just silly.

    Current lore is an erroneous reason for race/class combinations simply because the same lore can be used either for or against any arguement of most race/class choices.  Not to mention that the current race/class matrix was created back in 2016... before a lot of the current lore was even developed.  And hopefully also why Joppa has said that they will be "revisiting" the race/class matrix.

    Edit: I would be down for the whole racist classes thing if the game were designed as PvP based on races/factions (similar to WoW).  Then I would believe that lore would prevent a race from learning a skill from another race... but in a game where Gnomes, Skar, Elves and Ogres will be collaboratively killing human bandits or pretty faeries and then getting healed by human clerics and selling elven body parts to merchants, I very much doubt racism would prevent races from intermingling.  In a game where a core mechanic of the game world will be to group with other races and increase your standing with other cities and factions, racism prevents education and friendships between races?  Come on.


    This post was edited by Darch at February 22, 2022 7:23 AM PST
    • 1860 posts
    February 22, 2022 12:35 PM PST

    Darch said:

    Absolutely bud.  We can all have our own opinions.  But when you say "we disagree" you speak for yourself and a minority of others... because I'm on the side of the O.P. and many others with delusions of grandeur (granted, not all have delusions of leveling up multiple characters and in fact like that feature).  But we can all have our own opinions and the devs will do whatever they see fit regardless of our differing opinion based on what they want the game to be; and I'm ok with that.  I just don't like to be lead by a carrot on a stick only to wind up not being able to eat the carrot because I don't have time when I finally have it in my hands.  (i.e. I'm likely not leveling multiple characters with the intent of having multiple "mains").  I agree that we likely won't see progeny on release (if I even live long enough to see release), but I believe the primary goal of the progeny system will be unlocking features for future created characters as descendants (a.k.a. progeny) of that original character to promote multiple character generation and replayability of content.  I'm pretty sure this was mentioned by one of the devs. 

    I'd also point out that the O.P. stated getting rid of the "pointless" restrictions.  I think people get that Ogres may not be Wizards or Rogues, or Skar may not be Paladins or Enchanters, but Elves can't be clerics and Myr can't be Rangers?  Pointless.

     


    When I said we disagree I meant you and I.  I wasn't referring to the OP or anyone else.

    Replayability is one of many benefits of progeny, yes.  Other benefits include reducing the high end bottleneck, reducing the issue of contested raids/monopolization.  Spreading the playerbase out to a wider range of levels and populating lower level zones that often become vacant, which improves the new player experience.
    More than that, the main reason why these type of remort systems were added to games originally is because players get to a point where they have nothing left to achieve so they stop playing. 
    In early versions of remort systems players "beat" the game and it gave them a reason to keep playing.  At this point in MMO's we say they run out of content.  The result is the same regardless of how you define it.  Players stop playing otherwise.

    That's why Joppa has been so careful about stating progeny is an optional system the few times it's been brought up (similar to crafting or raiding in that regard).  It is targeting a specific demographic within the game.  If progeny is implemented in a way that everyone can, or wants to, participate it has failed.  It is targeting a couple different kind of players. 

    The first (and most important player type from a game dev perspective) are the players who would unsubscribe if it wasn't for a system like progeny because they don't have anything else to achieve.  The game would lose money.  The second type of player that these type of systems usually appeal to are the "main for life" type of player who want to focus on one character.  Systems like progeny allow players to earn additional perks for their primary character even if they have already attained every other thing in the game.  These players might be playing alts or just logging in to socialize with their guild otherwise (which isn't their preference).  Again,  both player types have dedicated a lot of time and gotten to the point where their current advancement has stalled if not for systems like progeny.

    I get why you aren't in favor of a system like progeny when you say you don't have the time.  Remort systems aren't targeted at players with restrictive time constraints.  They require a lot of time for very little added benefit.  

    I encourage you to look past what you want personally and understand why systems like progeny are important and how they benefit the game and playerbase as a whole. 
    I know many people on these forums struggle with this ^.

    but, like we said, progeny probably won't end up in anyway so this is all for nothing....but it does provide a ton of benefits to the long term health of a game.


    This post was edited by philo at February 22, 2022 1:24 PM PST
    • 945 posts
    February 22, 2022 3:39 PM PST

    @Philo, crafting and raiding doesn't require one to start a new character.  I'm ok with that option (for those who want it), but if that option allows access to content otherwise unavailable to everyone else, I'm not ok with that (unless they pay more money than I do).  Because I'm not ok with creating a brand new character just to access more content (in a game where your avatar is a virtual identity in a supposed immersive world).  

    That's not solely a matter of time constraints (like crafting or raiding) when it requires you to play a different character in an RPG. 

    • 1860 posts
    February 24, 2022 11:20 AM PST

    Darch said:

    @Philo, crafting and raiding doesn't require one to start a new character.  I'm ok with that option (for those who want it), but if that option allows access to content otherwise unavailable to everyone else, I'm not ok with that (unless they pay more money than I do).  Because I'm not ok with creating a brand new character just to access more content (in a game where your avatar is a virtual identity in a supposed immersive world).  

    That's not solely a matter of time constraints (like crafting or raiding) when it requires you to play a different character in an RPG. 


    I guess you don't understand how remort systems usually work if you think it is starting a new character.
    You didn't get the part where I explained that these systems are usually favored by "main for life" type of players?  Sometimes you just have to experience something I guess.  I'm clearly not explaining it well enough.

    Edit:  It's probably my fault for using the term "prestige class" which usually plays out more like you are referring to where you start over from scratch than how remort systems play out.  I was thinking that might be a term you could relate to but it may have just caused more confusion.



    This post was edited by philo at February 24, 2022 11:52 AM PST
    • 67 posts
    March 1, 2022 3:20 AM PST

    I like the concept of class/race restrictions for multiple reasons:

    - It gives the races and classes some identity. A culture technological culture like the gnomes would not accept a druid guild hall. 

    - It provides value to the journey. You will remember your first group with a cleric when you play a ogre warrior, because you had to travel to a location where that class is more common, or a cleric had to travel to your location. This makes the first contact special. 

    - It matches the lore. Interesting lore contains potention for conflicts, and the handling of these conflicts. VR had a great video about the giants, where you found signs of giants (fallen trees, moved rocks, etc) way before you met a giant at all. The same is for playable races and classes. A world will look different when another race/culture and their specific classes are involved and have influence of the zones. 

    - It makes balance easier. As a developer, you have to take care of less class/race combinations. 

    For some reason I am not good at writing today, so I hope you guys understand what I am trying to say :D  

    • 96 posts
    March 1, 2022 12:59 PM PST

    Putting Lore aside, and thinking about this system mechanically:

     

    The pros to creating ALL/ALL avaliability allows player to create their own custimizations and lore to their own tastes.

    The con would diminish player experiences as that race, because VR would have to take steps to Either >

    (A) Build every single starting city exactly the same with all the class trainer, vendor NPCs and cater every single quest line to be the same so that they are available to the players that spawn there; Just look at Amazons New World's settelments, they are copy pasted and boring.

    (B) Build a single starting area for all players with all the class trainer, Vendor NPCs, and quests for each class, Making every possible character you make, have the exact same intro as every other player that spawns there. This is similar to other railroad story mmo experiences and make player choices meaningless. with a possibility that the other race's cities are not actual player hubs, but story content.

    (C) A+B. Have players spawn in a starting area, and then port them to a starting city causing double the work for the same cons.

    (D) B+A. Have players start in the tutorial area, move them into the open world branching off to find thier own way to their own racial cities. With no map or guide venturing to areas that out pace their characters before they begin to progress thier class.

     

    Having race/class restrictions would have the con of limiting player choices to the lore deemed by VR, but the pros of allowing VR to take steps to >

    (E) Build every single starting city differently with a limited number of starting NPCs specific to that race/class each with it's own unique identity and lore without having any outliers. Create unique quest lines available only to that race or those willing to build relations. This would split players up into 8 or so different root expeirences and may split up friends wishing to play with another day 1. or force played to create more characters to expeience the other parts of the world.

     

    I am always for more choices for a consumer, but I believe in restricting the class choices will have better benefits mechanically by allowing more unique ways to play the same game(even though there will be many who chose not to try every one of them) instead of a single expereince for all/all while having to create individual leaps in logic to validate a lore choice like a member of an evil warring race deciding they actually just want to hug trees and make pots. 

    • 150 posts
    March 1, 2022 2:19 PM PST

    All/all would remove so much of the intrigue from rare illusion items, assuming there will be any. Seeing the odd class/race combination back in classic EQ stopped players in their tracks, made them gather round and ask questions. The same interactions wouldn't have taken place if all/all had been allowed, if dark elf monks or troll druids were commonplace. And, as Silky points out, each of the cities in Norrath would have needed to accommodate those additional classes, making the cities bigger or the guild halls smaller. The differences between beginner experiences would have been less noticeable as a result. A city that doesn't include shamans or druids (dwarven) would almost certainly hold their clerics in higher esteem than a city housing all three of the healing classes (human); being singular, the place of worship for dwarves might then be greater in size by comparison even though they themselves are smaller in stature, given its importance to them. For gnomes, the same might hold true but in the form of a library or research facility. And for the skar, an arena or temple where sacrifices are made. The absence of other melee classes among a specific race (gnomish) would make that class (rogue) all the more valuable to them or maybe not. Maybe their rogues are considered outliers, still stubbornly attached to the physical and wasting their true underlying potential. 


    This post was edited by Leevolen at March 1, 2022 2:48 PM PST
    • 945 posts
    March 9, 2022 12:18 PM PST

    Leevolen said:

    All/all would remove so much of the intrigue from rare illusion items, assuming there will be any. Seeing the odd class/race combination back in classic EQ stopped players in their tracks, made them gather round and ask questions. The same interactions wouldn't have taken place if all/all had been allowed, if dark elf monks or troll druids were commonplace. And, as Silky points out, each of the cities in Norrath would have needed to accommodate those additional classes, making the cities bigger or the guild halls smaller. The differences between beginner experiences would have been less noticeable as a result. A city that doesn't include shamans or druids (dwarven) would almost certainly hold their clerics in higher esteem than a city housing all three of the healing classes (human); being singular, the place of worship for dwarves might then be greater in size by comparison even though they themselves are smaller in stature, given its importance to them. For gnomes, the same might hold true but in the form of a library or research facility. And for the skar, an arena or temple where sacrifices are made. The absence of other melee classes among a specific race (gnomish) would make that class (rogue) all the more valuable to them or maybe not. Maybe their rogues are considered outliers, still stubbornly attached to the physical and wasting their true underlying potential. 



    I feel like a broken record having to repeat this very important point, but people aren't advocating for "all/all".  The OP clearly states "Pointless" class/race restrictions... not "All" class/race restrictions.  Examples of pointless restrictions could be no Elf or Archai Paladin - no Dark Myr or Ogre Ranger (but they can be Druids and Warriors...) - no Archai Enchanter or Cleric - etc.  Those are pointless.  We get maybe a gnome can't be a warrior, or Skar and Ogres can't be Paladins... those make sense, but only 3 races can be Cleric while 4 races can be Monks?!  That is pointless.  To Silywhip's point below... do all of the Monks (Skar, Dark Myr, Human, Archai) all start in the same training area, or do they just magically know the same martial art but aren't allowed in same cities?  Silly (pointless).

    SilkyWhip said:

    The pros to creating ALL/ALL avaliability allows player to create their own custimizations and lore to their own tastes.

    The con would diminish player experiences as that race, because VR would have to take steps to Either >

    (A) Build every single starting city exactly the same with all the class trainer, vendor NPCs and cater every single quest line to be the same so that they are available to the players that spawn there; Just look at Amazons New World's settelments, they are copy pasted and boring.

    (B) Build a single starting area for all players with all the class trainer, Vendor NPCs, and quests for each class, Making every possible character you make, have the exact same intro as every other player that spawns there. This is similar to other railroad story mmo experiences and make player choices meaningless. with a possibility that the other race's cities are not actual player hubs, but story content.

    (C) A+B. Have players spawn in a starting area, and then port them to a starting city causing double the work for the same cons.

    (D) B+A. Have players start in the tutorial area, move them into the open world branching off to find thier own way to their own racial cities. With no map or guide venturing to areas that out pace their characters before they begin to progress thier class.

    The Devs would not have to make every city exactly the same... every race (except gnomes) can be warrior... that doesn't mean every warrior trainer in every city is exactly the same... nor does it mean that all warriors start in the same area or a tutorial area.  And if the arguement is the "lore" of the warrior could explain it... then I'll repeat my point above - Archai, Dark Myr, Skar and Human Monks obviously start in different cities, with completely different lore and trainers, yet they somehow know the same exact martial art (making the "Secret of the Six Gates" not that well kept of a secret).  The same could be said for any class shared by another race... Do Elves and Ogres have the same Druid trainer?  Or how about Archai and Skar shaman?  Pointless


    This post was edited by Darch at March 9, 2022 3:02 PM PST
    • 2001 posts
    March 9, 2022 3:22 PM PST

    Darch said:

     people aren't advocating for "all/all". The OP clearly states "Pointless" class/race restrictions... not "All" class/race restrictions. 

    I totally acknowledge that you and other commenters aren't necessarily arguing for the total removal of all the restrictions. But I'm sorry man, nothing in the Original Post suggests that the Poster was only objecting to SOME of those restrictions.

    If we had just the title, then it would be at least debatable that the OP only wanted "pointless" restrictions removed. But the very first sentence of the post settles that question. Revener says: " It is pointless in a game and makes litttle to no sense." "It" is a singular pronoun that refers to only one object, event or concept. In this sentence, "it" refers to race/class restrictions as a whole, not just some of them.

    Believe me, I don't like grammar nazis and hate sounding like one. But your claim just doesn't pass muster.

     

     

    I'm still looking forward to grouping with you ingame though :)

     

     

    • 945 posts
    March 9, 2022 3:39 PM PST

    Jothany said:

    Darch said:

     people aren't advocating for "all/all". The OP clearly states "Pointless" class/race restrictions... not "All" class/race restrictions. 

    I totally acknowledge that you and other commenters aren't necessarily arguing for the total removal of all the restrictions. But I'm sorry man, nothing in the Original Post suggests that the Poster was only objecting to SOME of those restrictions.

    If we had just the title, then it would be at least debatable that the OP only wanted "pointless" restrictions removed. But the very first sentence of the post settles that question. Revener says: " It is pointless in a game and makes litttle to no sense." "It" is a singular pronoun that refers to only one object, event or concept. In this sentence, "it" refers to race/class restrictions as a whole, not just some of them.

    Believe me, I don't like grammar nazis and hate sounding like one. But your claim just doesn't pass muster.

     

    I'm still looking forward to grouping with you ingame though :)

    You can't leave out the adjective of a noun when referencing the pronoun that later refers to that noun.  "It" refers to "Pointlass Class Per Race Restrictions" not "All class per race restrictions"

    • 150 posts
    March 11, 2022 7:46 AM PST

    Darch said:I feel like a broken record having to repeat this very important point, but people aren't advocating for "all/all".  The OP clearly states "Pointless" class/race restrictions... not "All" class/race restrictions.


    Here is where the OP implied that they want all of the restrictions to be done away with, not just the one(s) they personally dislike:

    Revener said:

    No wonder it is a common discussion, since  people prefer to play the class theyprefer with the race they prefer.



    Darch said:Examples of pointless restrictions could be no Elf or Archai Paladin - no Dark Myr or Ogre Ranger (but they can be Druids and Warriors...) - no Archai Enchanter or Cleric - etc.  Those are pointless.  We get maybe a gnome can't be a warrior, or Skar and Ogres can't be Paladins... those make sense, but only 3 races can be Cleric while 4 races can be Monks?!  That is pointless.


    The restrictions listed might appear to be unreasonable, but judging by the amount of lore that's been made available so far, there is likely a very good reason we aren't yet aware of, in addition to some of the reasons already provided. Admittedly, Elf and Archai Paladin do make sense, along with Dark Myr and Ogre Rangers, and those other combinations do as well. Personally, I think the restrictions leave room for VR to make these and other sensible combinations available through rare events in Terminus. It would be cool if a reward for winning a Best of the Best was being granted access to another otherwise restricted race for that class, the class that player proved themselves with...but as a one-time only reward for a new character, not a character slot, so the player couldn't delete it and remake another. This would incentivize the playerbase to join these events, more so than just loot and/or titles. It would also lead to the winner starting all over on their favorite class, as that race, while still being able to keep their original character. Then anyone they grouped with on their new character would ask, how did they get to choose that race for that class?!

    It's very rare, but on project1999 there have been halfling/paladin sightings. The combination was available briefly when the project first began and then restricted (along with several other combinations). AFAIK a few were even tracked down and changed into more trilogy-appropriate races, but some still exist to this day. And they're hindered because some of the class-specific gear cannot be equiped/clicked due to their race not being listed. Despite that, and even after all of these years, raiders with best in slot gear still gather around when one of these players makes an appearance, more envious of them than the other way around. Even though it isn't classic, it doesn't ruin immersion/lore because it isn't widespread. And the flavor/realism it adds to that old, era-specific fantasy setting keeps everything from feeling stale. 

    So underneath the argument I initially made, I do agree with you and others to a certain point. Forgetting about any progeny system for a moment, why not include rare opportunities for players to gain access to otherwise restricted race/class combinations? Make the winner of the BotB contest or GM/perception event have to deal with the ramifications of that choice, needing to relocate their newly created race/class combo to another part of Terminus because no trainers exist in their starting city, not to mention solve whatever faction issues might be waiting for them there.

    Darch said:To Silywhip's point below... do all of the Monks (Skar, Dark Myr, Human, Archai) all start in the same training area, or do they just magically know the same martial art but aren't allowed in same cities?  Silly (pointless).


    Wikipedia: 
    (Bruce) Lee's friend William Cheung[18] introduced him to Ip Man but he was rejected from learning Wing Chun Kung Fu under him because of the long-standing rule in the Chinese Martial Arts world not to teach foreigners.[20] His one quarter German background from his mother's side would be an initial obstacle towards his Wing Chun training; however, Cheung would speak on his behalf and Lee was accepted into the school.[21] 

    IIRC a documentary about him also mentioned another workaround which came about as the younger generations ran into similar problems and, not having the right connections, instead began to freely teach one another all that they knew, exchanging different techniques and what not. 


    This post was edited by Leevolen at March 11, 2022 9:31 AM PST
    • 363 posts
    March 22, 2022 10:38 AM PDT

    Class/Race restrictions are essential to lore, you can't just dismiss it like that. It will also exponentially lengthen the development time if they have to make starting areas and quests for every class in each race's city. The class/race restrictions are fine.

    • 945 posts
    March 23, 2022 6:43 AM PDT

    Flossie said:

    Class/Race restrictions are essential to lore, you can't just dismiss it like that. It will also exponentially lengthen the development time if they have to make starting areas and quests for every class in each race's city. The class/race restrictions are fine.

    You're missing the key phrase "the pointless" restrictions.  Obviously an Ogre wouldn't be a Paladin, but why not a Ranger when they can be Druids?
    And there would be VERY little extra development time needed to transfer dialogue from a human NPC over to an Archai or Elf.  There would be no need to make new starting areas because starting areas are not determined by class, but instead by race.  Adding an additional NPC wouldn't be that big of a deal, and I think could offer a TON of fun lore... similar to how the Necro and SHD guilds in Freeport were essentially NPCs hiding their true identities from the guards and would only speak to you if you were a SHD or Necro and would then whisper to you as to not be "overheard" by bypassers.  

    One could argue that removing some of the "pointless" class/race restrictions would enrich the lore dramatically (instead of trying to claim that the lore steeped in racism.. yet every race will put their lives in the hands of the other and go on grand adventures together... but refues to teach Archai the ways of a Ranger, or anyone else to read the tomes of Clerics... which apparently only Humans, Dwarves and Dark Myr can read... (POINTLESS)).

    • 945 posts
    March 23, 2022 7:12 AM PDT

    Leevolen said:

     


    Darch said:To Silywhip's point below... do all of the Monks (Skar, Dark Myr, Human, Archai) all start in the same training area, or do they just magically know the same martial art but aren't allowed in same cities?  Silly (pointless).


    Wikipedia: 
    (Bruce) Lee's friend William Cheung[18] introduced him to Ip Man but he was rejected from learning Wing Chun Kung Fu under him because of the long-standing rule in the Chinese Martial Arts world not to teach foreigners.[20] His one quarter German background from his mother's side would be an initial obstacle towards his Wing Chun training; however, Cheung would speak on his behalf and Lee was accepted into the school.[21] 

    IIRC a documentary about him also mentioned another workaround which came about as the younger generations ran into similar problems and, not having the right connections, instead began to freely teach one another all that they knew, exchanging different techniques and what not. 

    Absolutely... even though one Dojo refused to share their teachings with another based on their origin (racism) somehow that knowledge still spread around the world... proving that information is shared between races even if a single sensei is racist.  Using that logic, how can one explain Archai, Skar, Dark Myr and Humans all knowing the same obscure fighting style (because they won't be different based on race), but Archai can't be clerics or rangers or a few other classes?  Is it perhaps an art that originated in Skargol and was stolen by the humans... and now there are human sensei's in all of these different cities; and if that is the case, why are there no human rangers to teach other races? 

    The classes that I could get on board with having race restrictions due to bias in sharing knowledge could be Paladin, Monk, Druid, or maybe even Wizard, and then classes with physical requirements of the race could be Bard, Warrior, Paladin, or Rogue and maybe INT based restrictions on casters; otherwise I feel the restrictions based on what some people refer to as "lore" are actually more akin to "racism".  There is no actual "lore" (read: history) that would exclude a race from learning a skill set from another race; physical restritctions - sure (maybe gnomes can't wear warrior gear or Ogres aren't small enough to blend into a crowd to pick pockets to be recruited by a rogue guild)... otherwise just call it racism, not history (lore).  And to our point... even boundaries of racism are crossed when it comes to one's ability to learn something from someone from another culture.


    This post was edited by Darch at March 23, 2022 10:46 AM PDT