Will we be given EXACTLY what each stat does? Not just, “Strength allows you to carry more and adds to your overall melee damage” That’s not enough detail. I want the math and details.
For example, as a tank there might be a cap on block, which makes sense. I shouldn’t be able to get to 100% block chance, so perhaps it’s capped at 40%. This should be written in game somewhere. Perhaps when you hover the stats in the UI.
I’ve watched videos of people taking the combat log and through painstaking trial and error, they reverse engineer the math to figure out what each stat does and what the modifiers and caps are and so on. Why not just tell us? Also, I hope it’s not over complicated to the point of needing the Risch integration algorithm I learned in my advanced college calculus class to figure it all out. Because, I wasn’t really paying attention to the professor on that day
I'm editing to include me below comment because I think I explained it better here:
Sweety said:I see both of your points, and in general I agree with your sentiment. I just don’t agree that hiding stats will accomplish what we all want. I feel, it’s a little naïve to think that someone will not figure out the formulas. It’s probably going to happen, unless we truly have zero visibility into everything, which I doubt. So being that it’s inevitable, formulas will be posted online, and 99% of us will go and read about it and the result will be the same. The only difference is, we have to leave the game to get the info.
I am in no way a min/max type of player. I don’t use damage meters, and I don’t like people that brag about squeezing every bit of damage out of their character. This is not my hope or desire. I do however, want to have control of my character. I do want to know if I am wasting time getting more than 40% block, for example. To me, this doesn’t make it easy, it makes it fun. I hate trying to figure out the math and formulas while playing the game. To me, that is not fun at all. So don't make me get out my calculator to figure out if I am wasting stats on block % (or visit a website).
Think about what an RPG is, did you ever play table top RPG’s? D&D perhaps? I did, and they always, 100% of the time give you all stats, math and formulas. That’s a critical part of the game. And from there you had a chance (dice roll) that your stats would help you. But you always knew the odds. That was the whole point of getting better stats. I hate when stats arbitrarily effect my character because I feel like I had no say in the matter, no control of what is happening. The dice roll is a chance that my KNOWN stats will help or hurt. But they need to be known. It seems people are asking to be blind to how to help their character and that’s odd to me.
Sweety said:Will we be given EXACTLY what each stat does? .. Why not just tell us?
I certainly hope not. Because one of the basic reasons many are following this game is because we hope it will be hard. Telling us all the formulas will make it considerably easier to maximize every aspect of a character. That's getting too close to 'easy street' for me.
I hope not.
From other posts you've made I gather that you're a hardcore raider. I am, too, always have been. But I'm among those hoping VR hides as much of the math from us as possible, even hiding how much damage we're doing in combat (apart from watching an enemy healthbar decrease over time). As a min-maxing theorycrafter, I'd rather this was not part of the game at all.
For maximum immersion and enjoyment of the world, there should be no "best in slot", no damage meters, no threat meters, and nothing else to make a player focus more on perfect rotation and "omg moar deeps!" than they do on playing their best to help the group/raid succeed. As much as I enjoy perfecting the output of my characters, those things only detract from the real game.
Also, there have been at least 2 other threads on this same topic recently.
I see both of your points, and in general I agree with your sentiment. I just don’t agree that hiding stats will accomplish what we all want. I feel, it’s a little naïve to think that someone will not figure out the formulas. It’s probably going to happen, unless we truly have zero visibility into everything, which I doubt. So being that it’s inevitable, formulas will be posted online, and 99% of us will go and read about it and the result will be the same. The only difference is, we have to leave the game to get the info.
I am in no way a min/max type of player. I don’t use damage meters, and I don’t like people that brag about squeezing every bit of damage out of their character. This is not my hope or desire. I do however, want to have control of my character. I do want to know if I am wasting time getting more than 40% block, for example. To me, this doesn’t make it easy, it makes it fun. I hate trying to figure out the math and formulas while playing the game. To me, that is not fun at all. So don't make me get out my calculator to figure out if I am wasting stats on block % (or visit a website).
Think about what an RPG is, did you ever play table top RPG’s? D&D perhaps? I did, and they always, 100% of the time give you all stats, math and formulas. That’s a critical part of the game. And from there you had a chance (dice roll) that your stats would help you. But you always knew the odds. That was the whole point of getting better stats. I hate when stats arbitrarily effect my character because I feel like I had no say in the matter, no control of what is happening. The dice roll is a chance that my KNOWN stats will help or hurt. But they need to be known. It seems people are asking to be blind to how to help their character and that’s odd to me.
I see pros and cons but I lean towards hiding as much as possible. I agree Sweety that in time people will have this information on the web but I do not agree 99% of us will be looking for it. You did bring up one thing though that I do hope they tell us and that is if things have a hard cap or even when we reach a soft cap. If they do not tell us when putting more stats in will stop helping than maybe 99% of people will go online and look it up.
I find it demoralizing when I realize I have been putting points into str only to find out it stopped helping long ago because I ran into a cap.
starblight said:I see pros and cons but I lean towards hiding as much as possible. I agree Sweety that in time people will have this information on the web but I do not agree 99% of us will be looking for it. You did bring up one thing though that I do hope they tell us and that is if things have a hard cap or even when we reach a soft cap. If they do not tell us when putting more stats in will stop helping than maybe 99% of people will go online and look it up.
I find it demoralizing when I realize I have been putting points into str only to find out it stopped helping long ago because I ran into a cap.
You have summed up how I feel, perfectly. I guess I don't care about the formulas so much. I care about wasting stats/time/resources and the like. Maybe I should have just asked to know about hard caps. lol
Sweety said: You have summed up how I feel, perfectly. I guess I don't care about the formulas so much. I care about wasting stats/time/resources and the like. Maybe I should have just asked to know about hard caps. lol
Now that is an entirely different issue. Leaving us the ability to directly raise a stat that would no longer make the slightest bit of difference is a troubling situation that I hope they will avoid. Perhaps just making an upper limit for how far we can raise the base stat will be enough. But I can agree with this.
In AC, from the start until 2nd (or maybe 3rd) expansion, there were 2 bonus modifiers on bows. A damage mod and a defensive mod. In the expansion where they added crafting (tinkering), Turbine finally admitted that the defensive mod had NO affect on anything. It had been a mistake that they didn't discover until after release and they just decided to not mention it. It was an unhappy period for archers like me.
Jothany said:Sweety said: You have summed up how I feel, perfectly. I guess I don't care about the formulas so much. I care about wasting stats/time/resources and the like. Maybe I should have just asked to know about hard caps. lolNow that is an entirely different issue. Leaving us the ability to directly raise a stat that would no longer make the slightest bit of difference is a troubling situation that I hope they will avoid. Perhaps just making an upper limit for how far we can raise the base stat will be enough. But I can agree with this.
In AC, from the start until 2nd (or maybe 3rd) expansion, there were 2 bonus modifiers on bows. A damage mod and a defensive mod. In the expansion where they added crafting (tinkering), Turbine finally admitted that the defensive mod had NO affect on anything. It had been a mistake that they didn't discover until after release and they just decided to not mention it. It was an unhappy period for archers like me.
Sounds frustrating and exactly what I am trying to avoid. I think we are all on the same page now. It took me a while to realize I want really wanted. haha
I am one that wants to know as much as possible about my stats and what they do. In one of the recent streams, there was a bean dropped that WIS helps INT casters in either crit chance or crit damage (can't remember exactly). I want to know exactly what my crit chance is at all times. That way I can swap between gear to see which would be a better fit for me. You don't necessarily have to give me the exact formula as to how I get there, but let me know the different attributes that effect any given stat.
Vanilla EQ didn't even tell you how much your mana pool was. That is insane to me.
As an extreme consideration, do you think you should know the exact number of HP you have at any given time, or is that immersion breaking?
**** when I played EQ at launch I had zero idea how to play but figured it out as time went by. I never knew my mana pool numbers, I was a cleric and I watched approxiamately how much health I was healing and on what character (Rogue, Tank, Wiz,etc) I was happy to work with approximates on how much mana it took when I casted, just as I didnt memorize exactly how long it took to cast a heal etc. I always worked with approximates and it was very immersive. WHen you get a FEEL for your character and how they work it all becomes second nature.
The one thing I do think is important is announcing what exactly stats do and are worded correctly, as well as what soft and hard caps are so people dont waste time, effort or coin to up stats that have zero meaning. I remember playing a rogue and being confused about the difference of dexterity and agility because of how it was worded or how maybe I misinterpretted.
I don't need to see all the math, but I do want to be reasonably informed as to what kind of improvement I could get from enhancing various stats. I hate games that only give a vague description since I am basically either forced to reasearch out of game (which can take me hours and is something I really dislike) or I am forced to make a completely uninformed decision on something I can't undo (at least not without a lot of work). I don't min/max and I don't like to spend tons of time researching a build--I just want to have a reasonable idea of what the ramifications of my choice is.
I'd love to see a game that allowed you to respec your level-up choices any time you're still the same level that you earned them. So once you reach level 10, for example, you have until you hit level 11 to respec what you earned by hitting level 10. That would give use time to try different things (which would cut down on the need to follow cookie-cutter builds) and it would allow us to be free to try different things before we settled in on what we liked. Think of it like a trial period--you try new things and focus on new abilities, and at the end of it, you decide what works best for you. Even if we could only switch twice (once at the halfway mark, and a second time when we locked in our final choice before we leveled up again, this would still really help us actually see what our choices are.
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Would love to have the ui show hard cap /soft caps and what stats do. The formulas or calculated numbers can stay behind the DM shield. If they dont add crit or what ever as a gear stat than just nowing that WIS gives crit and wis caps at 255 is all I need to know
I am strongly on the side of "I don't want to know the numbers" in most situations. If I'm fencing or using a bow in real life, I don't see any numbers, but I have a *really* good idea if I'm doing well or not, or if I'm improving. (In archery the answer was pretty much "No, I am not improving")
I understand that people are going to look for the numbers and do MATH, and I have no problem with that. But I wonder if, instead of always looking back to the past for solutions, there was an alternative way to know:
* when you've reached a cap
* when you need to work to improve how you do something
But when it comes to "should I spend this precious epic point on improving this or that"—a decision which could be irrevocable—I would like to get a really good idea of what my options are before I buy. The real world analog might be "should I go to this trainer or that trainer to improve myself", this or that martial arts school, and I'm pretty sure everyone would want to do some research first, talk to some people who have done the training at that school, find out exactly what you will be working on.
So lots of information in tool tips about stats or mastery stuff wouldn't offend my sense of immersion at all. I would just think of it as a game representation of doing research or asking around about this exercise or that, and whether certain forms of training would help me improve.
Vixx said:Would love to have the ui show hard cap /soft caps and what stats do. The formulas or calculated numbers can stay behind the DM shield. If they dont add crit or what ever as a gear stat than just nowing that WIS gives crit and wis caps at 255 is all I need to know
This is pretty much how I feel about the situation. Just let me know what each stat affects and when it caps out. I don't particularly care to look at formulas, but I would like to know when I'm wasting time and points by funneling them into a stat that no longer makes any difference in my character's progression.
I do, however, understand that some folks like to know specifics. Whether placing that 1 point in wisdom will raise my chance to crit heal by 1% or if, instead, I place it in dex, it will raise my dodge rate by 3%. (Just pulling numbers out if thin air here.) It allows for more informed decisions.
I think there can be way too much emphasis put on stats. Stats lead to cookie-cut roles and they depress me. I do get why some would want to see exact numbers but to me, they are not needed.
I think the argument for having exact stats because tabletop RPGs had them is lacking. The old tabletop games had to have the stats and equations and modifiers, etc., etc., because you could not play the game without them. With the tech today, you could have just as enjoyable time having an electronic DM aid that hid all that from you.
I think it is important to know what a skill does, or a spell or equipment, but I am not convinced you need to know exactly how good something is. In RL for example, when you select a knife; you get a good idea about its worth by looking at the craftsmanship that has gone into it, or the examining the reputation of the crafter, or you can judge how old it is, feel the weight of it, the balance, but you never know exactly how effective that knife is until you use it. You can test the edge with your thumb, it might feel sharp. You can make a test incision and the knife might cut easily and precisely. So, you conclude; it is a good knife. It is a judgement call and you certainly do not have the assurance of finite numbers. But how can you be sure? You can’t, but you will use it anyway.
It should be like that in game too. Give enough information that allows you to judge the item, but no more than is needed. I will trial and error spells, equipment and skills and I will learn the character; what works and what doesnt. I do not need exact numbers to do that.
It also makes sense to me that when something is being undertaken, luck can easily come into play. Put a bit of randomness into the world. Our world is so far from formulaic that even super computers can only make a calculated guess at the weather over the next 3 days. That uncertainty should be reflected in Pantheon too. You should never be sure that you will win every fight by using the same combat sequence and you should never be sure of all the elements that come into play when adventuring.
In my view, stats make for a repetitive and boring game.
Vixx said:Would love to have the ui show hard cap /soft caps and what stats do. The formulas or calculated numbers can stay behind the DM shield. If they dont add crit or what ever as a gear stat than just nowing that WIS gives crit and wis caps at 255 is all I need to know
My position as well. Too much detail is a negative imo.
Absolutely hope we cannot see that much detail. If you know exactly what the best possible thing is, with the ease of just looking at your stat pages ruins not only the immersion but actually makes the game worse because every single person in the game will go for only one set up. PLEASE dont have that much info. please Tunare help us
Personally I don't care to have the full formula in maths presented. And I hope it changes with the season.
I would find it fine if my arrow shots as a ranger have a damage output that changes with the season or what have you.
Imagine: That last season there was a drought and the branches I make my arrors from as not as stiff. A flexible arrow misses more or whatever. Variation and change . Chaos and the unexpected.
Not to say I would't be disappointed at times, but I can adapt. Other times I might be pleased and also have to adapt.
If the rules get set as static and nothing about skills change then the world will become boring.
Even in this true reality there are only a few hard and fast rules.
Gravity, electromagnetism and the strong and weak nuclear force. All the rest is degrees of chaos.
Note: don't mention quantum theory to me here, even Einstein called it spooky, and we are not prepared for a physics debate.
Let the makers create without hard and fast rules for skills and attributes. Keep us on our toes. Nerf and buff everything. Speed, power, resistance, look and feel. Artists never feel as if they are done with a piece, they just learn to let it go. The artist we are collectively supporting should never have to feel as if they are finished, but instead, they are always welcome to try new things within this world they are creating.
Numbers are what I live for in MMO's.
To be fair, I will be a min/maxer so if they give us nothing and everything is hidden...I will be the guy that sits at the target dummy for hours and maps this all out.
With that being said, it benefits me to have all the numbers hidden because I will know the numbers and most others won't. However, I want some information out there.
1) The biggest thing is accuracy. Nothing irritates me more than a misleading tooltip. If it says str increases physical damage, then accurately it needs to also increase bow and arrow damage too.
2) We need to know certain things that are not disclosed. Ex: Eq2 All fighters could ONLY dodge if the attack came from the front, BUT monks could dodge in a 360 if the attack came from behind.
3) We don't need the formula's, but we do need our stats. If you don't tell us what our Crit chance, or dodge chance, etc is...then we MUST rely on parsers to determine this. Most likely we will have parses so why not just tell us that information to begin with. It's part of seeing your character grow so why hide it?
4) Be more open about when special items stack or dont stack. I hated getting a rare item in a raid that had a special attribute to it (chance on hit to increase your haste for example), but I wasn't sure if it would stack with a similar special affect I had on my gloves for example. I hated wasting my DKP learn they dont stack.
5) I'm sure theres more, but there should be a balance of letting us figure it out, and some things are so trivial that we will learn in notime anyways, so why waste our time? Don't make us work with pennies.
I hope we don't get the full mathimatical details. I would prefer this game to be challenging and not a simple exercise of number crunching. I liken this to when Blizzard released Gear Scores. That was as great a detriment to the community as killing Guilds with the introduction on the LFG Tool. Not to mention it will promote min/maxing.
Stats should simply be a baseline that we look at. Just tell us that Agility increases Dodge and melee crit chance, then let us figure it out from there. Besides, those running parsers will eventually figure it out and start publshing their builds so other can copy and create cookie cutter glass cannons and raid bots. I just find those things counter to community relationships. Sure they are a subsect of the community as a whole, but most players want to have fun and grow a character, not do the math and build a character.
For those who say you can just determine the equations involved, that's not necessarily true (though it almost always has been). The reason we can reverse engineer their equations in other games is because of their simplistic approach to introducing random number generation. With rng on a per-hit basis only, if you use backstab on a target dummy 30x, you'll have a darn good notion of how much damage backstab does and what its variability is. Having more sources of variation and sources that aren't just based on "recalculate the rng value on each hit" can make the equations much more opaque.
I love spreadsheets, data analysis, etc., so it would logically follow that my preference would be for VR to provide more numbers. However, I take issue with any design approach that leads the players to come to clear and provable choices. If we can back out equations and prove with mathematical certainty that sword X is better than sword Y, then that's bad. As things get fuzzy, players have much more room for disagreement. Fewer players would go around asserting that sword X is BiS and you can't join the raid if you have sword Y. Not only that, players would spend more time testing the world of Terminus and trying to figure out what works and why. Part of what made EQ great is that players didn't know what was possible, what was right, or even what they wanted to do. I can only hope that VR agrees with me and tries to obscure as much as possible, because I think uncertainty generally encourages decisionmaking, exploration, and experimentation, and I think that's a big part of the fun.
It seems to me that when you openly supply too much data the players start to focus on the numbers rather than on the game. The introduction of gear score is a perfect example, as Tekzan points out. Instead of just playing the game, and learning who is good at it and who isn't, swaths of players were instantly excluded from participating in portions of the game because their gear score wasnt sufficient. The same is true of a lot of stats. Not at least 10k HP, nah, we'll find a different tank. Not at least 10k Mana? No way man, we'll get a real healer. Not at least 90 dex/str? Screw that, we'll take this other rogue for better crits.
Will there be guilds that parse things and work out measurements that set their standards? Sure. But if you make it too easy then it'll be the defacto practice for guilds, and some of the intent to just live in a world gets squashed.
I'd only like to know what each stat does, I don't need the deeper math/equations. If it's a simple thing like each point of Stamina increases HP by 10 then I am fine just having that on the tooltip. If strength increases carry weight and melee damage, at least show how much each point increases carry weight but no need to say how much damage as I would imagine that ties into a more involved calculation.
I'd also like to know what stats are involved for each ability in their tooltips as well, preferably what aspect(s) they affect too. If charisma extends duration while dexterity and strength increase damage, I want to know. I don't need to know exactly to what extent of each, but to make informed decisions when gearing it would be helpful.
Iksar said:
I'd only like to know what each stat does, I don't need the deeper math/equations. If it's a simple thing like each point of Stamina increases HP by 10 then I am fine just having that on the tooltip. If strength increases carry weight and melee damage, at least show how much each point increases carry weight but no need to say how much damage as I would imagine that ties into a more involved calculation.
I'd also like to know what stats are involved for each ability in their tooltips as well, preferably what they aspect(s) affect too. If charisma extends duration while dexterity and strength increase damage, I want to know. I don't need to know exactly to what extent of each, but to make informed decisions when gearing it would be helpful.
100% this. Though I said I wanted more details in my opening statement that started this thread, I've realized that I don't care about the math. But we need some level of insight as to what the stats do. You are spot on with this statement.