Balanz said:For example, if my character wants to make a spear or an axe, that one character ought to be able to make both the haft and the head. Perhaps a Blacksmith would be better at making an Axe head, but make a decent haft. A wood worker might be able to make a very good haft, but only a decent spear head, and might not able to make an axe head at all. Someone who makes a leather tunic might be able to make simple buckles, or maybe not. A suit of mail or plate requires a gambeson underneath, that might be beyond their ability.
So I would hope that if I were a blacksmith, I might have access to an array of related skills at a lesser ability, but to make the very best gear, I would need components made by the master of another craft.
This very point has been elaborated on by our Crafting Dev Nephele. In the last section of this comment on the "Crafting Fundamentals" thread:
His description was very similar to what you are proposing here:
"2) Think of a mold like a recipe template - so a mold will tell you that you need 2 metal bars, a hilt component, and that you can add one optional item to use with it. (Note: This is a simple example, we can easily make things require multiple components or allow for multiple optional items if we want). That hilt component is where interdependency between professions might come into play. As a blacksmith, you might be able to make a basic sword hilt yourself - but that sword hilt will be slightly inferior to one you might get from an outfitter (who made it from good materials using their pattern for sword hilts). The goal is to have interdependency but not block new players completely on it. There's a benefit to socializing and working with other crafters.
He said:
"As a blacksmith, you will have schematics for:
- Small weapon blade
- Basic weapon hilt
Outfitters might have a schematic for 'Wrapped weapon hilt' and Jewelcrafters might have a schematic for 'Jeweled weapon hilt',
both of which would be slightly superior to the basic weapon hilt that a blacksmith makes."
It was also talked about in a Devstream. I'm fairly sure it was the official Crafting Reveal Devstream with Nephele:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhVdFHZ1D_M&list=PLpt-i68hITSupvZLpWS30VrWTFyP-fCiv&index=13
I'm planning a Blacksmith that focuses on weapons, a Leatherworker that focuses on armor, and a Woodworker that makes Bows & Arrows (he'll be my Ranger, of course)
Nephele said:...Crafting:
Each character can pursue one base crafting profession. As they advance, they will be able to specialize in different aspects of that profession, but not all of them.
...Again, this is something that may change as things develop and based on feedback during alpha/beta. Progression is one of the last things we'll lock in for crafting and gathering, and we have a lot of other aspects to implement and test still before we're at that point.
Please feel free to discuss pros/cons as you all see them. All feedback is good feedback and like I said, this isn't set in stone yet.
I find crafting more useful and enjoyable if I could at least dabble in the basics of multiple crafts. I should be allowed to play around a bit before settling down to master a single craft. I'd also like to be able to make some crude off-craft components needed for basic assembly of journey man items. For example:
Obviously, better items would require better parts than I could make, and these I could reasonably be expected to buy or trade from another crafter, thereby making play more social, but....
I would rather be able to dabble up to Journeyman in a few crafts and make some basic items pretty much on my own before I have to specialize and depend on other specialists to follow my craft.
EDIT:
Sorry to appear obtuse. Somehow I missed the response immediately above this post. I recently found the Developers Livestream regarding Crafting, which cleared up quite a bit. My apologies.
Nephele said:Something that I am considering, but have not yet decided on, is treating consumable crafting professions like cooking and alchemy separately from finished item crafting. If I were to do that, you would be able to have one profession of each type at the same time.
Again, this is something that may change as things develop and based on feedback during alpha/beta. Progression is one of the last things we'll lock in for crafting and gathering, and we have a lot of other aspects to implement and test still before we're at that point.
Please feel free to discuss pros/cons as you all see them. All feedback is good feedback and like I said, this isn't set in stone yet.
Just wanted to say that I think this is a really interesting idea and I hope it's being explored as an option still. Historically, one of the big issues in crafting communities is the growing disparity between consumable crafting professions and "finished-item" crafting professions in regards to viability and profitability as the game economy matures. There may be some different routes to take to address this, but even if other routes are taken I think the approach you suggested above is a great idea to implement along with those other routes.
To dabble in all styles of crafting could translate into being able to construct the basics of fuels for each tradeskill class.
This would allow people to interact with the different types of crafting stations and get a feel of the atmosphere each of those creates. Being able to do these basics does not make your master of all. You might not require recipes, molds, techniques, abilities or expertise for those things. It does what it should: it doesn't push players out if they do not want to dive deep into crafting, but it provides some agency into making some elements they might need along the way.
Recently the game has shown to go great lenghts that they aim to keep that player indentity while in combat/adventure. Using techniques as a design can create similar pathways for crafters.
Where using techniques during a craft will more likely result in an item with a certain stat or property or you might require certain tools or abilities in order to use those techniques. This doesn't have to be the finished product just yet, it can be one secondary or tertiairy component in the entire crafting of the final item. These techniques can be as rare/commonly obtainable as is similar to their design for combat techniques. (especially if you consider crafting tools themselves, it can add a lot of flavour and diversity to player experiences and to how players display their crafter towards the ingameworld.)
So you might have the basics, to dabble here and there and get a feel of crafting. This usefullness can be maintained if those skills/abilities can continue to be used at later stages in the game. So even if you're high end adventurer but not a crafter at all, you can still attempt the basics of crafting at that higher level.
Second would be the techniques found/chosen. You could put restrictions to the amount obtainable or those found can be in line with what you're primarily chosing to create. This could be organically or more set up in a design-storyline, where you advance your character and get in depth with the style and techniques you've come to enjoy the most. It might even require you to drop other techniques to advance in others. (getting sidetracked here).
Thirdly, you have those molds and templates that facilitate you into making secondary or other components and final products. Again linked to your decisions made throughout your carrier.
If you put it all on one pile for one to use all crafts/expertises, then you step away from that character identity. The one thing, they do seem to try and uphold and keep secure while developing this game with further character growth in mind.
"@nephele Something that I am considering, but have not yet decided on, is treating consumable crafting professions like cooking and alchemy separately from finished item crafting. If I were to do that, you would be able to have one profession of each type at the same time."
I believe we've spoken about this in other threads before. So I hope not to repeat myself here.
You can call it cooking and alchemy. Or you can categorize it into primary crafts and secondary crafts. Or keep it just to Processing and Finalizing (I'm sure there are better suited terms in english for it) What I seem to hear from you atm is that you're considering to have the processing bit being allowed for all characters. Which brings me to my point from above, you can do that for the very basic of processing. But it would be a shame to stick to that design when you look at advanced processing. And here it quickly turns towards; what's considered to be basic/commonly used fuel or components. And which components could/would require advancement from the character (be that in skill/abilities/techniques/recipes). Current state of crafting seems to showcase such differentiations already.
From what I've understood so far, you've already designed crafting thusfar that you have similar setup. So I'd keep the term cooking and alchemy for when you're talking about finalized products or recipes. To prevent confusion. (not meant to sound harsh, my english only goes so far, apologies in advance)
The basics could be: melting, extracting, mixing, processing/altering/transforming/condensing/distilling. All fine for all characters and can be used as a red line throughout the levels, independent of their craftinglevel/ or other crafting related skills that are not directly used for "melting, extracting, mixing,...". If you go beyond that point and want to create anything more sophisticated you'll walk the path of abilities/tools/skills, etc. And here 's where the true character identity and interplayer dependency comes into play. From that point you start to stimulate towards being a crafter in a world, not a game.
Reiver said: If they don't limit what you can do on one account, they can't sell you 20 accounts.
Figuring out what most of your customers will be happy with, and giving them this at a price that makes a profit, will do more for the long term longevity and prosperity of the game than trying to find the 'bare minimum' that people will buy so you can then leverage a few more dollars from some percentage of them for extras.
Jothany said:Reiver said: If they don't limit what you can do on one account, they can't sell you 20 accounts.Figuring out what most of your customers will be happy with, and giving them this at a price that makes a profit, will do more for the long term longevity and prosperity of the game than trying to find the 'bare minimum' that people will buy so you can then leverage a few more dollars from some percentage of them for extras.
By also selling you more accounts comes the other half of it, selling your account online. I find the negitivity in everything you know :)
The only difference I see between being able to master all crafts and being only able to master a fixed number (1-2-N) is that in the first case the masteries will be expensive and difficult and in the second case the tradeskill oriented players will have to create many alts.
EQ choose the first solution and it was all but impossible to have all tradeskills maxxed in a reasonable time. Just take 3 - Jewelcrafting, Tinkering and Spellcrafting. Jewelcrafting was VERY expensive (400 pp a pop and 5% probability to get 1 point took in average 8k PP for a point). Tinkering was not only restricted to Gnomes but needed rare drops for progress. Spellcrafting was not only expensive but needed also rare drops.
Lotro choose the second solution and people simply created alts.
So finally I don't think that it really matters and the choice should be more oriented on the tradeskills themselves (their content and fun) than on the question how many of them can be mastered by a single character.