Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Horizonal leveling? what about Sideways expansions??

    • 2138 posts
    January 19, 2021 10:28 AM PST

    What I mean is: there have been oodles of good ideas regarding what people would like to see in game as far as development in addition to enhanced game play. Some of these also reference existing game mechanics, and some with actual "if-then" programming type statements which, I imagine, would make it very easy for devs to implement considering the groundwork already suggested in the descriptions by the  community.

    Additionally, the commuinty has astutely deemed some of the ideas put forth as unfeasible or impractical given the constraints in an MMO design.

    So, outside of higher levels and new lands and higher level monsters to conquer, what could you see as an expansion that significantly enhances or builds upon the existing world and gameplay?

    Iirc deep sea fishing was one. Could be an expansion to fishing that is challenging. The deep sea fishing skill would allow the player to catch sharks or whales without having to swim down to fight them but has to be done on a boat(travel boats?). However, initiating the deep sea fishing skill has a medium to high random chance(D20, 15 or higher) of spawning a giant squid which might have cool loot in it.

    If uncaught, the squid will stay in the ocean and wander like a MoB with depth restrictions coded to it. The zone restriction will have a buffer that is, say, no more than 4 squids. So at any time a person with deep sea fishing skill could have a chance at four squids(three being left from previous fishers), or none, they don't know. Likewise random divers might see the giant squid that was spawned by a previous deep sea fisher and didnt catch it, and muster groups- if they can get acclimated for the depths(pressure acclimation). Squid AI to be determined if it can go outside its depth zone. Tracking or animal sensing does not work in water- except as racial ability (echo-location) for Dark Myr which is sketchy at best. They can sense solid objects, moving objects appear as wispy lines- wait that "solid" cliff just moved... 

    The drawback I see is that it would add monsters; but I think the rules would make it fun for existing players and not be too intrusive to new players.

    If Terminus was no to expand, how could it be expanded upon?    

    • 220 posts
    January 21, 2021 9:37 AM PST

    I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE HORIZONTAL PROGRESSION LEVELING

     

    That being said as history shown us that horizontal give VERY LONG LIFE to the game and it also eliminate the boredem time. You might say what about the small % group that rush through the game and complete all the content? Well they are not 90% of the player base so they will need to level up skills or go dig dirt in the back yard. (j/k) 

    With horizonal leveling it will give Devs plenty of time to create new and exciting content that will last long! Plus old gear will have longer life when new content be made available.

    Please dont use FF14 gear progression, with every expansion the old gear is useless. FF14 uses Vertical Progression gross..but man can they chrun up "repeating" contents in different skins

    • 3 posts
    January 21, 2021 10:08 AM PST

    I think you need both horizontal and vertical progression. You need vertical because in rpgs one of the main tenents is that you progress your character to get more powerful. However, without any horizontal component, you end up essentially fighting the locust swarm that is your playerbase and overall that is not sustainable.

    An easy way you could incorporate both is for instance through for instance adding content that rewards item pieces that fill a gap in the item economy. For instance in early WoW, having a knife that gave you increased proficiency in skinning was very important as it was used for crafting an item involved in raid progression. However, paladins could not wield knives, meaning they could not be good skinners. Blizzard later added a skinning sword because of this in another content update. This update also added other item pieces that made certain specialisations (feral druids) and classes (warlocks/mages) have an easier time gearing since prior to this update there were only a few pieces of game with key stats that they needed. At the same time, this cointent you got the gear from was not at the cutting edge and was tuned for smaller group sizes.

    So to cut a long story short. VR could simply add content patches that reward items for instance that are lacking in game, but make the content not be cutting edge. This way players are still vertically progressing their character power (thorugh getting better gear), but the content itself is not made harder so the level of difficulty added to the game is progressed vertically.

    • 810 posts
    January 29, 2021 9:15 PM PST
    Vertical progression is what I like to jokingly call the "number go up" mentality. The simplification of the mechanic highlights the unappealing nature. The common +1 longsword becomes a +7 longsword overall nothing really changes except the previously harder to get +2-6 longswords are now just skins no one needs. It is the most common and is what I expect, but possibly not to the degree we see in other MMOs.

    I would push for horizontal leveling. Every class has new abilities to go learn across the levels, reasons to "mentor" down to see some new content. The new continent can be mostly max level to expand where a lvl 50 would want to go. With the cool pantheon world a shard of a continent can be jammed in initially causing a bloody war or run on resources before things settle down and we learn some of their techniques. New race, factions competing for who they should side with, betrayals, intrigue, false flag attacks to be resolved or carried out against the other races. Slow year long process to play through not just a content dump with future raid unlocks.

    I truly prefer the slow gear method of most table top games to the gear sets of throwaway magic items but I am in the minority. Good chance the player base will focus on raiding and not adventuring, number go up is a necessity for raid centric MMOs.
    • 3852 posts
    January 30, 2021 6:59 AM PST

    This was a hot topic years ago - one thing suggested then was that new areas could introduce things that would not affect the old areas in any way. 

    Thus - increasing maximum level or going from +3 weapons and armor to +4 would make old content trivial unless one somehow prevented the new levels and gear from applying in older zones - which would be a bit of a mess. On the other hand one could introduce a new ability or attribute that only applied in the new zones. To blatantly borrow from LOTRO's Mordor expansion - introduce a new ability called Light of the Pantheon. The more LoP you have the less damage you take from enemies in a new zone. The more damage you do to such enemies. No effect in old zones. Voila - you have given us two years of grinding to improve our gear with better and better LoP without in any slightest way making us more effective in the older lands.

    Or, given the game's emphasis on climate, introduce a very hot zone with fire elementals and similar enemies not found elsewhere. The two years of grinding will now be to improve our resistance to hot weather and fire damage and to improve our ability to do damage to fire-based creatures.

    I greatly prefer this type of horizontal development to the traditional vertical approach. Note that EQ2 players have been complaining for many years that the numbers have gotten insanely high and the game should drastically reduce them for both characters and enemies. At least this was true as of a year or two ago. WoW has actually implemented such a "squish" but they have far more resources to do things like that. Better for Pantheon to never go down that road.

    • 115 posts
    January 30, 2021 8:53 AM PST

    This is one that I think EQ got very right  even in luclin we where going back to  old world content  for gear you did not replace every slot with every expation. there was not progressive raiding we didnt chase a gear score or Crit mit number. you logged in  looking for an adventure make some AA it could be in a number of zones or expations some days it could be the camp you wanted. other days it was for  another in the guild or just a pick up. we dont need to replace  all the +3 we get with +4  to have fun and enjoy a game. Also older  content can get easier over time that is part of inproving. This ladder of you need to do the solo to gear to do the group to get the gear to do the raid content is crap I liked having raid drops group loot even older loot that you can solo all being part of the Best in slot build. Progressive raiding and instance farming LDON/ Gates was the fall of the EQ I loved. I will admit I kinda liked gates even have said I think it could have added to the end game of the Pop lock server. I found luclin Loy Kunark to be the best expations they added alot of content a cross the board. but I never really cared if i was gaining xp i liked helping others we didnt need quest hubs or even trinkets for the time. we helped pugs with epic bosses because it was something to do. 

    Players today will help an npc for nothing  but want to sell loot rights and carries to other players so sad. I say Hail young mage do you need hand, I would be happy to help. 

    Maybe this was just The Rathe I know it was a diffrent experience than another server I started on before rerolling on The Rathe. 

     


    This post was edited by Vixx at January 30, 2021 8:59 AM PST
    • 332 posts
    January 30, 2021 7:44 PM PST

    I like Rifts or FF skill web over AA this forced choices for more complex builds.

    The issue with EQ1 aa is after a certain point , you are playing a spread sheet and it turns into just a number's game of I have xxx aa.

    This is not to mention the looking for a raiding guild! Sure we have a opening in are guild , required 700 AA.

    • 115 posts
    February 2, 2021 1:27 PM PST

    Xxar said:

    I like Rifts or FF skill web over AA this forced choices for more complex builds.

    The issue with EQ1 aa is after a certain point , you are playing a spread sheet and it turns into just a number's game of I have xxx aa.

    This is not to mention the looking for a raiding guild! Sure we have a opening in are guild , required 700 AA.

    I want a cleric to be a cleric and monk to be a monk  at the end of the day  limmited AA/talent choices is something I never Liked in EQ2 or WoW at least in wow it changed what you did with the class even your roll. 

    EQ2 it was always giving up something that was needed at times. 

    I like the SP system for spells hope we can keep making them at max level so like in eq2 we can master all are spells.


    This post was edited by Vixx at February 2, 2021 1:42 PM PST
    • 332 posts
    February 4, 2021 8:31 PM PST

    What does the skill web of FF or Rift have to do with a cleric being a cleric or a monk being monk? The specific AA or branch on the web tree is entirely based on a developers vision of the class.

     

    As for EQ2

    EQ2 was not that way at all , I played EQ2 at ww top 10 when it was competitive, the days of Second Dawn < Confirmed , Validus , NPU , Strike etc

    The EQ2 AA system forced you into generic preset roles or required AA builds to complete top end content , end of story. IE Illy , you had time compression or you did not raid... period.

     

    The spell point system I belive you are talking about Apprentice , Journeyman , Adept, Expert , Master , Grandmaster was a gimick that later turned into a pay to win situation.

    This coupled with the ability to flat out buy them, if you inserted credit card number was rather sad, and just a reality.

     

    If you want to speak about before , crafting or training when it was specific drop only ... The average entry level raid guild required Expert + making the lower tier's pointless, top end guilds where master plus.

    The disparity of one raid guild that was on average using expert , with a mix of master spells compared to a guild with a avg of master was mind blowing and broken. We are talking over 25 % dps / parse comparisons in identical raid builds.

    This turned into a balancing nightmare for content at the avatar + level of play. 

    Not to mention later on in the games life a hinderence for guilds trying to recruit players , due to the requirements to even compete in top end content , but also for apps due to having to either pay real life money to even be considered and this still did not ensure a raid slot... Overall IMO just a piss poor design.


    This post was edited by Xxar at February 4, 2021 8:44 PM PST
    • 115 posts
    February 4, 2021 8:51 PM PST

    Yes EQ2 aa build had meta builds and things you needed to raid some classes had more than one. Like we need one dirge with x build for the tank group and one dirge with y build for the dps group I think we should with time have both and what we put on that hot bar changes with the task. not some limit to make it ez for people that want to play 10 hours a week or play 5 alts to still cap out we have that in every game out now. 

    I also under stand that to raid you needed it master in all or in a list of spells it was fun for me any way farming the tradeskill drops for all eperts and tracking down full master set Long term goals are good. It should take time your class should grow. Nothing should come fast its the Adventure not the raid at the end BTW we wont have zones full of instant spawn raid mobs to raid 5+ days a week.

    I was long gone and done raiding before the Pay 2 Win cash shop was added. Heck when it was just fancy mounts and looks we busted chops about Pay2win. 

     

    I liked that in EQ If we picked up a cleric if they didnt have an aa they should it was just a bit a farming every cleric could get every skill it was just about putting in the work. 

     

    If rift has not changed from the one time i tried it  like every class had a dps/ tank and healing roll they could spec for so you couldnt be cool a cleric we have a healer.

     

    PS 

    Getting a master drop of a trash spell to fill my book out made a very crappy week just go away it was the last master I needed dropped off a mob that we where only killing to get some ones alt an epic/mythic update.

     I dont think we need 1000 aa I even think that catch up systems where older aa points get granted as the game ages can be good for the game. Same with newbie armor quest they added really helped get players in to the game. The Luclin ones

    Just one last add Can you Believe its been at least 10 years that we have nothing but trash to play for MMOs. 


    This post was edited by Vixx at February 4, 2021 9:36 PM PST
    • 115 posts
    February 4, 2021 9:57 PM PST

    The problem was not Raiding guilds Req you to have 200 aa or full masters. It was Players Did not want to put in the work  to join up with a guild that had already progressed if your a fresh player you should find a guild thats progessing at your level. Not look I am 50 let me join the guild that was max level and farming for the last 6 months. Even than if your a good player and really putting in the work if a guild needs your class they will catch you up. 

    • 902 posts
    February 5, 2021 9:13 AM PST

    This boils down to how you view "progression". I would say that the common expectation is that progression always means higher player level and it doesnt have to. To me, adventure progression is just as rewarding an experience as gaining a new level. There are several things that players like from an expansion; new player level cap, new and better skills, new and better loot and new zones to play in.

    Personally, I think that an expansion it doesnt have to have to provide a new level cap and better equipment to be a fun and rewarding purchase. As discussed, a number of times both here and in other threads, the ever-upward increase in level cap makes previous equipment useless and even zones to be less appealing to players. So instead of trying to find fixes to the upward progression problems, why not stop that direction in the first place?

    So how do you create a max level zones without increasing the level cap?

    Harder mobs are a general employ but there are more ways than one to make a mob "harder". Instead of increasing their level, why not make the mob more intelligent with new behaviours and skills. Keep their levels at the same as other max zones, but make the players have to approach fights in new and interesting ways. Instead of an arrow pull then hide behind an object and wait for the dumb mob to come to you, make the mob recognise this as a potential trap and pauses, or even calls some mates to the party? Have mobs lay their own traps and ambushes. Have mobs employ different tactical attacks and attack formations, get them to employ tactics used by players by protecting their healers and employing their own good CC tactics. Give them real line of sight and hearing reactions. If one mob moves away from their normal position, have the other mobs within line of site, walk over to investigate. Have chain and plate and other equipment make a noise that can attract mobs (unless the noise is deadened in some way). Make mobs approach noise, or light or smell for that matter. Make mobs harder by allowing them to behave more like players. 

    How about loot and equipment with ever increasing stats; is this always best? Well instead of increasing the base stats, you could give them unique abilities or have the items provide new skills to the wielder; you could have a bow that gave a new line of CC with its use, or a bag that provided a shadow effect around the wearer. A hammer that could hit the ground and cause a sonic boom. A grapple hook and rope that caused the user to be harder to knock off or quicker to climb. The equipment stats remain the same for the items, but their effects could be added to so that the zone still provided good rewards and would allow users to try new strategies with the changes in equipment effects. 

    Other things to consider when creating a new max level zone is to have the new zone employ unique mechanics. Maybe there is a zone with two or three opposing factions that are continually fighting. Players can influence which factions get the upper hand and this can set off chain reactions depending on who that is. Maybe one faction (as a last resort), opens a gateway to another realm and floods the zone with new creatures, or a different faction employs a dragon or some mercenaries that happen to be giants to aid them. This could in turn make the zone safer or more dangerous depending on the player's factions. it could also open or close player opportunities depending on who has the upper hand. 

    This is on top of the usual stuff such as new skill webs, unique zone items, titles, privileges, collections, recipes, art, opportunities and story lines. Cool new looks and effects. Allow crafters to break down the new stuff and apply those components to current armour and weapons so that a cloak could receive the shadow effect.

    XP could be syphoned off to a status value that could be used in part payment for prestige items and the like.

    My point is that new releases dont have to result in higher player class levels and equipment providing larger stats. A more creative approach could end up having a zone which is very deep and interesting and fun can still be a challenge without resorting to increasing stats. I honestly believe that if a new max level zone has a deep enough story and give players enough new challenges while reducing the feeling of "done this before", then that would prove to be just as popular as a any release that did increase the cap. The advantage is that is doesnt immediately make current BIS insignificant or other zones hollow.