Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

(Crafting) How would you define mastering a profession?

    • 3852 posts
    January 19, 2021 8:19 PM PST

    To be able to make things at the highest tier - which is not at all the same as making the best things - practice, practice, practice. Anyone should be able to do it if they spend the time and resources.

    To make special items you would need the recipes and the materials. Possibly just a function of the broker or the beloved God RNG.

    But your question implies the possibility of more. Perhaps doing an "epic" level quest series to become the best of the best. As in EQ2 for example.

    • 1921 posts
    January 19, 2021 10:50 PM PST

    Nephele said:Hi everyone,

    I have another question I'd like to put out there for you all to discuss. 

    If it were up to you, what would it take to master a gathering or crafting profession?  What kinds of steps should there be in achieving it?  How would you define the concept of being a "Master"?  Should it be something that everyone can achieve just through normal progression or should there be more to it above and beyond just getting your skills or level up? ... 

    Everyone must be able to achieve it through normal progression.
    To me, mastering a crafting profession means consuming all the current content for that profession, up to the current level cap.  Whatever that entails.
    As far as steps go?  If pure crafters are permitted, then it can be done entirely by a level 1 adventurer inside a city, without ever leaving that city.  But that presumes every input object (mats/raws/recipes/schematics) are tradeable, 100% of them, without exception.
    So far, I don't think that's a confirmed design goal, so no point in exploring that line of logic at the moment.

    Personally, my opinion is: If a player takes the same time and effort to consume all the current content for that profession, there's no reason to limit them (the player, not the character) to one crafting profession.  They're not limited by account or player, only by character, so it's a trivial distinction at best, as many others have pointed out on these forums over the past 7 years. 
    I've never seen of nor heard of a game that forced interdependency at the account level.  I mean, adventuring players aren't limited in this way, they can have as many alts as they want, so.. seems reasonable the crafters will also have the same freedom.

    What would I like to see for crafting content on the way to Mastery/Max Level?  Solo, group, and quests.  For each tier.  Just like adventuring content.

    As gathering is going down the logically proven flawed design of guarded nodes (or at least, no positive or negative confirmation either way,yet) there's no point in commenting on that for the time being.

    • 724 posts
    January 20, 2021 12:26 AM PST

    I'd say that mastery should be attainable through normal progression. To become a master, the only requirement should be dedication to your craft. Obviously this can include hard-to-get skill-ups when you near the max skill, and there can be quests that give you a "badge of honor" to show your commitment, etc.

    But reaching mastery should of course not mean that everything becomes trivial to you. High level and especially max level recipies should still be challenging for you to complete.

    • 612 posts
    January 20, 2021 3:14 AM PST

    Luniss said: "Some people find joy in crafting and only crafting ... It's really kind of a deal breaker for me in the MMO genre.  If I can't craft without having to go out and grind kills for days on end, then I'm usually not giving that game any thought."

    Now I realize this is just your opinion on this matter and I am in no way judging you for feeling this way, but I personally do not understand this point of view at all. There are lots of 'Crafting' centric MMO games out there where crafting and building things are the main focus of the game. So why choose games like Pantheon that are obviously focused on adventuring and exploring and combat and then avoiding all that to spend your time only crafting.

    While it seems that Pantheon does want to have a feature rich Crafting system, this is not the main focus of the game and it's likely that it won't compete with the true 'Crafting' games out there for complexity. Crafting in Pantheon is meant to be an 'Optional' feature that might appeal to some people who also like to do some crafting when they are playing their 'Adventure' game. I totally understand players who want to get all excited to Craft in Pantheon; But this attitude of full on avoidance of the Adventuring part sort of leaves me scratching my head. Why choose the Adventure game to just avoid adventuring so you can just do the 'Optional' crafting as your sole activity.

    It's like if you just chose to play Star Wars: The Old Republic to sit in the casino and play the slots and ignored quests and leveling and all that. If your interest was in gambling games, there are plenty of other casino games/apps for that kind of thing, with a lot more complexity of casino based games. Why choose to play an Adventuring MMO that just happens to have a casino with slots and then only play in the casino and avoid all the main features of the game.

    It's also similar to how I don't understand the 'I only want to PvP' crowd in a game like Pantheon. Yes Pantheon will allow PvP on designated servers, but the game is still mainly a co-op PvE adventure/explore game. PvP will always be a 'side' feature to add some flavour to the game. But if your sole purpose in gaming is to PvP, choosing Pantheon and then avoiding the PvE stuff and only trying to PvP all day long.... well like I said before, lots of head scratching on my part. Seems like if your primary focus is PvP, why choose the game where PvP is an 'optional' side thing?

    Now I am not trying to convince you to avoid playing Pantheon, or tell you to go find a different game. I am just saying that I have always been confused why people choose a game with a specific focus, and then just play the very small part of the game that's an optional extra feature and complain when the game tries to 'push you' into doing the main specific focus of the game. "What do you mean I have to go out and Adventure in this Adventure game... I want to just sit in this one area in town and play this little mini game called 'Craft Potions' or 'Forge Weapons' and then sell them to the people actually playing the Adventure part of the game."

    Lol... Makes me think of the old game Duke Nukem which is a First Person Shooter game where you play as a guy named Duke Nukem. In the game you can find in various places an Arcade console game of Duke Nukem and when you try to click on it to play it the Duke says "I don't have time to play with myself!" because you really should get back to shooting the bad guys.

    Now I do realize that this is not a small group of people who think as you do... There seem to be a lot of you who want to just want to sit around only doing crafting. I just don't understand this Attitude: Covfefe 'Crafting Only, Variety For Everyone ForEver' ???.


    This post was edited by GoofyWarriorGuy at January 20, 2021 3:24 AM PST
    • 523 posts
    January 20, 2021 4:17 AM PST

    I like how WoW did it.  Mastery needs to be special to some degree and unique to some degree.  A weaponsmith choosing to master axesmithing and forego mastering the other weapons is the sweet spot for me.  A tailor choosing to master elemental stitching as opposed to something like Holy or Demonic.  A woodworker mastering staves instead of bows.  An Enchanter mastering defensive enchants as opposed to Offensive enchants, etc....  If you can have 2-3 options to choose between per profession to master in at max levels, that would be ideal.

    In terms of harvesting, it could be a similar concept where you specialize in finding "X".  So, for mining, maybe you specialize in finding gems as your mastery, which gives your character a 5% chance to pop a gem, where maybe someone else specialized in rare metal, so they get a 5% chance to pop that rare metal.  

    Also agree with having to do an "Epic" quest to declare your mastery choice.

    A lot of these posts/replies were philosophically driven, not sure if Nephele wanted that or game design concepts.  I went with the latter.

    • 1315 posts
    January 20, 2021 5:26 AM PST

    @GoofyWarriorGuy and @Luniss

    I see and favor both concepts and don’t see them as mutually exclusive.

    A full crafting gameplay loop can be very enjoyable and matches with certain play styles and personality types.  SWG had this and it was a very enjoyable way to interact with a living world without needing to worry about being a combatant.

    A full crafting gameplay loop would require both supply and demand to both exist within safe zones.  Note that I said exist and not the “most time or material efficient” method.  For example I could trade with other players for some exotic material or I could spend say 4 hours doing crafting writs for the faction that will let you buy it from them.  In the same time an adventurer could go out and just get that exotic material in less than an hour of game play.  Common materials I think can be assumed to be easily acquired in safe zones by either method.

    The demand aspect is trickier but in simple terms can just be crafting writs that are cash neutral (material spent is roughly equal to the reward).  You spend time as a crafter to both increase your crafting progression and your social progression.  Social progression being all forms of faction and or access rights.  This is all in very generic terms and can be made to look and feel very immersive but ultimately its just crafting writs with controlled rewards.

    Where things get interesting is where the Adventuring sphere and crafting sphere can interact.  Special crafting stations out in the wild are good examples.  Getting to the crafting station can be a challenging adventure but there is no reason that a low adventuring level but master crafter could not be escorted to said location by high level adventurers.  Pantheon is after all a grouping and social game.  Escorting weak crafters to world locations could just be a form of symbiotic emergent game play.  The adventurer would likely be the source of demand for the items made at the dangerous crafting station so there is incentive to help the crafter.

    That leads to the other reason why crafting inside of an adventuring game can be more rewarding than crafting in a purely crafting game.  In a crafting game all the gameplay is focused around crafting.  It is progression for progressions sake.  In an adventuring game crafting serves an actual purpose which is way more enjoyable than just putting more pretty objects on a shelf to admire.  Again this is something SWG captured very well as the best items were player made but in order to make them you had to give up on being an adventurer yourself.

     

     

    • 690 posts
    January 20, 2021 5:37 AM PST

    In real life I'd consider a master of a profession as someone who takes all the things everyone else does and makes it their own. This results in unique combinations and discoveries within the profession.

     

    As I have no idea how you could simply/safely allow people to create their own things within a profession to master it in a game setting....

    Simply getting max skill level and making the best stuff should do.

    You could retain the feeling of mastery by throwing in tradeskill quests where your character, at least, learns to make a "unique" item of his own design. Even though it's the same one everyone else quests to make.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at January 20, 2021 6:06 AM PST
    • 220 posts
    January 20, 2021 7:06 AM PST

     

    Non-trivial crafting Mini-games that are an actual test of real life abilities = fun.

    Trivial crafting Mini-game = test of a players real life stamina = mind numbingly boring.

    One or two abilities that crafting Mini-games can test = boring.

    A variety of abilities that crafting Mini-games can test = fun.

    Non-trivial crafting Mini-games built around abilities such as: hand-eye coordination, pattern recognition, distraction tolerance, ability to calculate, memory retention, foresight, multitasking, etc. = fun

    Trivial crafting Mini-games built around those same abilities = test of player stamina = mind numbingly boring.

    Crafting guilds within which to rise through the ranks of apprentice, journeyman, craftsman, master craftsman, grandmaster craftsman, etc. = fun.

    Ability to rise through the crafting guild ranks by successfully completing crafting Mini-games = fun.

    A reverse in one’s progress towards the next rank within the guild by failing a crafting Mini-game = edge of your seat fun.

    Recipes assigned to each rank within the crafting guild = fun.

    Moderate up to just below difficult in challenge crafting Mini-games within the apprentice rank = fun.

    Difficult up to just below very difficult in challenge crafting Mini-games within the journeyman rank = fun.

    Very difficult up to just below brutal in challenge crafting Mini-games within the craftsman rank = fun.

    Brutal up to just below impossible in challenge crafting Mini-games within the master craftsman rank = fun.

    You manage to reach the rank of Grand Master Craftsman = you are a freak of nature.

    The difficulty of any given crafting Mini-game is static and never changes simply as a result of gaining rank within the crafting guild = fun.

    A crafting Mini-game only really seems to have become easier because that person became more confident at beating the Mini-game through practice = fun.

    A rank or title of say “Master” or “Master Craftsman” is simply a reflection of how skilled a player was at beating the Mini-Games at the previous rank of Craftsman = fun.

    A true reflection of their abilities.

     

     

     

     


    This post was edited by Nekentros at January 20, 2021 7:06 PM PST
    • 256 posts
    January 21, 2021 12:53 PM PST

    I think that when it comes time to master a profession there needs to be an epic journey that marks this occasion.

    I've been playing Skyrim recently and The Stones of Barenzia comes to mind when I think of epic. For anyone who doesn't know this quest requires the player to go to 24 locations spread around the world and collect these unusual stones. The player then returns them to an NPC and has to go into a dungeon to retrieve a crown which they are slotted in and upon completion they receive a buff that increases the chance to find rare gems in the world.

    While Skyrim and Pantheon are two very different games when I think about mastering a profession I see a player having to go to various locations of varying level ranges to collect rare components. Then after all the components have been collected needing to combine them into a "legendary" item that is fitting of being called a master worked item. I think that this item should be soul bound to the crafter who makes it and it should be a fairly powerful item fitting of the journey that it took to craft the item. After this item has been created maybe the player is also granted access to masterwork recipes or is allowed to find these recipes in the world and these recipes could be crafted and sold as normal and in terms of item power they would be strong but they wouldn't be as strong as the soul bound crafted item. Completing the mastery quest could also allow for a better innate chance at successful crafting or reduced materials. 

    Mastery of a profession should be about more than just maxing out a bar and learning recipes from a trainer it should be about the journey. And what I am about to say may be controversial, but I really think that some of the items required in this hypothetical mastery quest should be BOP meaning that the only way for a crafter to get them is to be present at the kill. I don't think that mastery in a profession should be trivialized to the point that it can be bought if a player has enough money. Though to be fair I guess a player could buy a spot in a group or raid to get a required item, but hopefully, there would be enough RNG to prevent that type of behavior. 

    • 5 posts
    January 22, 2021 8:57 PM PST

    GoofyWarriorGuy makes some great points with "Crafting + Adventure vs Crating Replacement for Adventuring"

    My Take on Mastery:

    It's based on practice, training, environment, stats, and skills. 

    I like the idea of passing a "quest" to be noted by my "crafting guild" as a certain skill level with perks per level up. Beginner-Novice, Journeyman, Master, Grandmaster. This gives you some mini-goals to achieve during the many practices you'll be doing to master your skill. 

    I agree with azaya logic on how stuff could work. 

    -Knowledge is the volume of recipes aquired by the crafter over time, through various methods.
    -Skills are disocoverable through a variety of methods and are improved when items that require the skill are crafted.
    -Proficiency is a bonus applied to a skill when crafting an item and can be improved through the aquisition of knowledge.

    Thus the more items you know about for a given skill, the higher your proficiency in a given skill and the higher the chance you will discover that skill to begin with.  As you become more proficient in a given skill (scope of knowledge), you fail less often but always have a chance to fail.

    Now I know...people are going to say, "I don't want to grind". Ok I get that.  But I think by giving a bonus through proficiency, to gain more success via knowledge, will help the grind feeling out by encouraging you to seek out more knowledge and craft those items, instead of crafting the same item over and over again. Though you could accomplish pure skill advancement in that way too.

    In addition I would propose that skill is not capped via adventuring level, but rather that each crafting skill be its own XP bar as it were.  You then become capped by your adventuring level only because your access to materials and items required to gain skill and knoweldge becomes restricted by the possibilities of the death penalty.

    I would also propose a skill training bonus based on the crafters primary stat(s) - so the more adventuring the crafter has done, the more primary stat they will have and thus the greater rate of skillup they will achieve.

    I agree with Antonius, Getting top skill level"experience", plus wide "Knowledge recipes/schematics", + Correct stat (STR/DEX/INT/WIS), and the best tools, and resources to get the best outcomes = Grand Master of a Craft.

    Where I think other games get it wrong:

    Crafted products are sold for less than the value of the ingredients (This never makes sense to me, why is crafting the go-to money sink in Video Games? When in reality being a craftsman is a good path to making $ certain crafts more than others of course. After all, you're adding "Value" to the raw ingredients granted on a "failed" craft I can see the results selling for ~ the same or less than the value of the ingredients depending on the quality of the failure.

    Why does failure = no product or parts of the recipe but not the whole thing? This is absolutely dumb! Think of it a minute let's just imaging making a PB and J sandwich a failure of it would still be a sandwich it'd just be a low-quality (not as satisfying) sandwich. Granted if someone was a Master Chef their PB and J might not look as good as their "Masterwork" but it'd still taste as good on a "failure".

    Failure for a "Grand Master Craftsman" would be a non-masterwork item. A grandmaster wouldn't fail to make the item, however, the quality of the item: stats, durability wouldn't be as good as a "Masterwork item". I could see a Beginner "failure = no usable product depending on the "craft" failed blacksmithing would = copper, tin, or bronze sure, failed carpenter would = firewood or shorter item, tried to make a spear instead made a broom. Failed to make a tea got a "weak tea", failed to make a potion got a 75% chance of weak poison and 25% chance of weak beneficial potion.

    If all you do is make daggers then you can only be a master smith you'll need to successfully make a variety of items to become a Grandmaster Weaponsmith. But let's be honest here if you can make a sword you can make a dagger, you can make a spearhead, a halberd, an arrowhead. I've always found it odd that "smiths" aren't required for arrows in games since in reality, they are! I think it's because people feel like mastering too many crafting classes = a problem.

    In most games "Failure and how it's displayed is stupid aka you lose the item(s), or get some components back.

     


    This post was edited by Indomidable at January 22, 2021 8:59 PM PST
    • 234 posts
    January 23, 2021 10:55 AM PST

    Indomidable said:

    Why does failure = no product or parts of the recipe but not the whole thing? This is absolutely dumb! Think of it a minute let's just imaging making a PB and J sandwich a failure of it would still be a sandwich it'd just be a low-quality (not as satisfying) sandwich. Granted if someone was a Master Chef their PB and J might not look as good as their "Masterwork" but it'd still taste as good on a "failure".

    Failure for a "Grand Master Craftsman" would be a non-masterwork item. A grandmaster wouldn't fail to make the item, however, the quality of the item: stats, durability wouldn't be as good as a "Masterwork item". I could see a Beginner "failure = no usable product depending on the "craft" failed blacksmithing would = copper, tin, or bronze sure, failed carpenter would = firewood or shorter item, tried to make a spear instead made a broom. Failed to make a tea got a "weak tea", failed to make a potion got a 75% chance of weak poison and 25% chance of weak beneficial potion.

    If all you do is make daggers then you can only be a master smith you'll need to successfully make a variety of items to become a Grandmaster Weaponsmith. But let's be honest here if you can make a sword you can make a dagger, you can make a spearhead, a halberd, an arrowhead. I've always found it odd that "smiths" aren't required for arrows in games since in reality, they are! I think it's because people feel like mastering too many crafting classes = a problem.

    In most games "Failure and how it's displayed is stupid aka you lose the item(s), or get some components back.

    The results of failure to me could vary widely.

    IE:

    Item: PB&J Sandwitch
    - Critical Fail = unusable (it fell on the floor, the bread fell apart, its a puddle on your counter) 
    -- Returns: Nothing (its a food combine)
    - Standard Fail = No stats but its still edible and satisifies your hunger requirement, though maybe not as long as a non-fail version
    -- Returns: Nothing (its a food combine)

    Item: Arrow

    - Critical Fail = unusable (arrow shaft is crooked, feathers falling off, arrow head not mounted right)
    -- Returns = Arrow Head, 1-3 Feathers (role D100 for success in removing them)
    - Standard Fail = A low damage and inaccurate arrow (It stays together but its flight caracteristics are poor, arrow head is not straight)
    -- Returns = Arrow Head, 1-3 Feathers (role D100 for success to remove), Shaft (Role D100 to determine if deconstruction damages it)

    Now if your a Master and fail maybe you cannot get a critical fail

    So based on the type of item, a fialure can be critical(unusable) and for standard failed items you can still use them but you might want to just deconstruct them instead. 

    Where Deconstruction can return components if the item type supports that and if the components might be recoverable.  Obviously in a food combine you cannot un-fry an egg, but you could deconstruct an arrow with limited success for another attempt.

    So I am advocating for a seperate deconstruction step that is optional and not one where a fail auto deconstructs and maybe returns some items in the process, which is essentially the short hand version of deconstruction.

    I might add, that if an item's components had stats/quality to them, then you could adjust success rates of both combine and deconstruction steps based on the component's stats/quality used in that item. And thus bring harvesting of high quality components into the overall equation.

    -Az

     PS - I suppose if Lore/Magics of the world can support un-frying an egg, then that might be possible through some ritual or incantation, but I doubt the scolars of magic have researched un-frying an egg and so its doubtful the knowledge exists to do so.


    This post was edited by azaya at January 23, 2021 11:19 AM PST
    • 1 posts
    January 26, 2021 7:16 AM PST

    One of the essential things to me that makes crafting worthwhile is to be able to craft gear relevant for my level.  A big failure in most MMO's is to make crafting leveling and character leveling happen at different paces.  so many times i have been searching for gear upgrades while leveling up my character and found that it is more time efficient to farm drops or quests for gear instead of craft. This is why nobody does crafting in these MMO's until their character is max level and then they just max the skill to reach end game recipies.  To me crafting should always level faster than the character.  This way your item creation always remains level appropriate since you are limited to what your character can farm yourself/group or buy off the market.  Mastery of a profession in history from an apprentice involved creating an item that demonstrates all the skills taught by the master in one of their original works.  In the game this should be reflected as an item creation quest / creation minigame that integrates user skill, rare components and a minor amount of luck that can be compensated through equiping crafting gear or using rare stabilizers to increase crafting chance.  This should be on the level of an Epic weapon quest from old EQ with the reward being an Epic crafting tool.  I also believe that Gathering should be unlimited just require the appropriate tool to use.  Profession mastery should be limited on each character since mastery implies dedication to a singular field.  I remember coming across one game that allowed the character to either master a singular field or reach expert levels in multiple.  Jack of all trades, master of none.

    • 55 posts
    January 26, 2021 8:40 AM PST

    I think that mastering a crafting profession that requires a large group or raid effort is wrong. I don't like gameplay choices that are 95% solo then need a lot of help to finish. 

    I'd like to see skill and mastery being separate entities. Skill can be gained by repetion or tasks. Mastery is gained by reading books and scrolls and doing non-combat based quests. Mastery would give benefits to the crafter apart from pure skill. Perks like less materials, better crit chances, better yield or quality options. 

    Quests can involve dangerous areas, but not require direct adventure leveling. Things like searching for books, visiting locations, or buying scrolls or Training from npcs. 

    • 902 posts
    January 26, 2021 9:57 AM PST

    Nephele said:

    If it were up to you, what would it take to master a gathering or crafting profession?  What kinds of steps should there be in achieving it?  How would you define the concept of being a "Master"?  Should it be something that everyone can achieve just through normal progression or should there be more to it above and beyond just getting your skills or level up?

    Just like all the other questions I"ve posted, there's no right answer to this - I'm mainly interested in just seeing everyone's thoughts on this subject.  There's no design decision that depends on this discussion or anything like that either.  So, just talk about what you think the right answer should be!

    I think crafting should go hand in hand with adventuring and not be a separate mini game. It should be woven into normal game play and lore. Mastering crafting should be part of the adventure, not an inevitable title you simply get to by clicking "Build" x30k times.

    I think Beginner levels of crafting should be achievable by anyone through general foraging and building. Intermediate should require you attend a crafting guild that could require you to work through various sub levels (apprentice, journeyman, etc.) until you get as good as your tutors. To get further, I think that some kind of Specialisation should take place requiring one or more quest lines. Then Advanced with its own set of quests (and titles), and finally to become a Master should require significant dedication and have its own set of quests, tasks and skills to aquire.

    I dont like the idea that a character can become a master crafter while still being a level one adventurer for a number of reasons; flooded markets being one of them.

    I think there should be basic foraging items and recipes that can be harvested by any character in any zone. These could make basic equipment. Then there should be zone level ingredients that are required to make that level's good equipment (only by those that attend a crafting guild). Followed by rare recipes, forages, drops and the like to be used to create the best equipment (only available to the advanced and masters). I would like to see crafting as an addition to adventuring in the same way that perception will be. It can be ignored, but you will get a fuller game if you go with it.

    There has to be a balance between the adventure level of the character crafting foraging for anything above Beginner. Some recipes and progression should only be available to those that seek out a master in the wild and gain their trust before gaining their wisdom. Crafting should be as much a part of the fabric of the lore as adventuring will be and I would like to see it race driven too. Maybe you can become a master at Elvish things and Dwarven things? But not a master in all races.

    I would like to see the attainment of Master in the same manner that I would like to see epic armour and weapons. It should be difficult and require more than basic combines to achieve. It should be lore driven and contain adventure elements. It should provide a way to create beautiful and useful items that cannot be crafted without mastery. But above all it should be in-depth, fun and lore driven.

     

    • 72 posts
    January 29, 2021 10:58 AM PST

    Nephele said:

    Hi everyone,

    I have another question I'd like to put out there for you all to discuss. 

    If it were up to you, what would it take to master a gathering or crafting profession?  What kinds of steps should there be in achieving it?  How would you define the concept of being a "Master"?  Should it be something that everyone can achieve just through normal progression or should there be more to it above and beyond just getting your skills or level up?

    Just like all the other questions I"ve posted, there's no right answer to this - I'm mainly interested in just seeing everyone's thoughts on this subject.  There's no design decision that depends on this discussion or anything like that either.  So, just talk about what you think the right answer should be!

    This is a really interesting question.  Hm ...

    I think for crafters, one should:

    * Hit top level

    * Have every item crafted at least once

    * Have every recipe found and learned/scribed

    * Do possibly a quest(s) to go through stages to show proof of such (EQ2 has this with quests and receiving cloaks with symbols on it)

     

    For harvesters ... hm:

    * Hitting max level

    * This seems more a thing where one gets max in all gathering professions

    * Harvesting once of each item

    * Having special quests like Crafter

    • 220 posts
    January 30, 2021 3:40 PM PST

    I dont mind chopping 1000s tree to get 1000s log just to make arrows or a chair BUT. Please dont make crafting difficult and uneccesary like i.e going into raid to get rare ore OR defeat mega boss for diamon ore that has a 0.1% drop rate...ugh then i need 1000+ of that ore c'mon man.

    Unnecessary

    • 72 posts
    January 31, 2021 4:55 PM PST

    AbsoluteTerror said:

    I dont mind chopping 1000s tree to get 1000s log just to make arrows or a chair BUT. Please dont make crafting difficult and uneccesary like i.e going into raid to get rare ore OR defeat mega boss for diamon ore that has a 0.1% drop rate...ugh then i need 1000+ of that ore c'mon man.

    Unnecessary

    One thing EQ2 did in regards to rares dropping from raid creatures, is made the crafters necessary for raiders to use.  I don't see anything wrong with that, but I do understand your point.  I would not want that to become a master crafter.

    • 768 posts
    February 1, 2021 10:07 AM PST
    • Mastering should not be a railroad or a must have in the game.
    • Mastering a profession is not about having made 100’s of one type of product.
    • Being a master is about being recognized by others.
    • Becoming a master depends on your definition; it could be a rite of passage or ceremony.

    o   But it could also mean that you’ve gained certain privileges.

    When a crafter is able to obtain certain recipes/templates or use certain resources. Or when someone is able to craft items with a high difficulty rating, successfully, not ones but multiple times. Or provide evidence that they have mastered crafting certain items in recent history.

    Mastering a gathering profession or crafting profession could be about understanding where and how to obtain resources. But also to manipulate or harvest those resources optimally.

    For gatherers this could be, using the proper tools, time of trying to harvest a node, the yield might differ if you compare a common harvester and a master harvester. The distance required to spot a harvesting node might differ between common and master harvester.

    An investment required by a player. This could be a time investment: time required to reach those milestones. But it could actually mean financial/resource investments: where those masters are players who’ve been willing to invest in-game coin into reaching that goal. (this could be by influencing factions, playing the market through questlines, etc). This last one doesn’t have to be a large cash dump in one go, but rather gradually over time, an ongoing investment on their way to becoming a master. Paying npc's that teach them/ or assign them quests. Those that don’t invest that coin, can still progress, but some bits are exclusively to those players willing to pay more. What those bits are is up to discussion. But it then becomes part of being recognized and experiencing that ‘step-up’ in its’ “niche society”.

    Perhaps, becoming a master is about maxing out the different branches, specific questlines that relate to that profession?

    Displaying your mastership could indeed be about fluff and personal esteem/reputation. Instead of having access to unique, powerfull items/recipes/content. You don’t want to create a requird highway to the top with the mastery design. So it might be less tangible and lean more towards the roleplay factor of the game?

    • 768 posts
    February 1, 2021 10:19 AM PST

    I'ld like to add:

    Another playering being able to recognize that the product in front of them is coming from a master. This on itself could be another aspect on how master's are presented in the world.

    This could be by: 

    • the value of the item/product
    • the appearance/depiction of that item
    • the quality of that item
    • the durability of that item
    • the conversation capability /turn over-value of that product

    and could work for both gathering and crafting. 

    • 454 posts
    February 5, 2021 11:48 AM PST

    ideally I'd like to see crafting "leveling" be as similar to adventure leveling.  I'd make it L1-50 with different raw materials, different items, from different regions.  Failure to craft similar to failure to kill a mob.  Anyone should be able to reach grandmaster, given time, experience, effort.

    • 101 posts
    February 6, 2021 6:41 PM PST

    The way I see it, in most games tradeskills always lag behind levels.  The gear you can craft at any given level on a first playthrough is always way behind the gear you are getting while leveling. Some people are dedicated to tradeskills and forgo leveling their character to work on them, but most people I know start off excited about it, but can’t get enough materials though normal character level progression, and eventually level up their tradeskills by going back to farm them after reaching max level. This makes the tradeskills sort of useless at every level but max. 

    To keep tradeskills relevant while leveling,  I like the idea of Tradeskill sidequests that you unlock every 10 levels that bring you up to that tier. So at level 1 you could get a quest that takes gives you the basics, and takes you until level 10 to complete, but gives you level-10 in that tradeskill if you complete it so you can make some level 10 stuff. Then you would get a quest that takes you to level until level 20 to complete, but then gives you that tier of ability. Etc.  I like the idea of some kind of Epic Quest to finish the final Tier and be a “master” (or however you want to call it) and lets you make the master tier items.

     

    Ideally the Tradeskill Quests will have you looking for materials and Forges in the areas you would already be adventuring in for each tier. That way you have a purpose: you can keep your eye out for the stuff you need while leveling, and even have it direct some of your leveling adventures. A concrete list of stuff you are looking for is a lot more enjoyable than simply farming nodes and crafting 800 wooden shoes because that is how much Tradeskill xp you need.  It also means less going back to lower level zones and farming nodes out from under people of the appropriate level.

     

    • 19 posts
    February 15, 2021 6:03 PM PST

    To master a skill, it should take something more than just doing the skill repeatedly ad nauseum. Practice doesn't make perfect, it just makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect. To practice perfectly, you must learn from a master what it is you should be practicing. Not sure how with the game mechanics this would be possible. Maybe have it where you have to seek out a master craftsman (NPC) and do a quest before advancing to the next skill tier. You'd still have to go out and do the skill for a while to level it up, but at certain points you won't advance further until you seek out and get more advanced knowledge.  Maybe one of the things the master craftsman has you do is turn in to him/her several examples of your workmanship (items you would have crafted at your current tier). These iems are taken out of play (to help the economy a little), and via RNG, each item you turn in has a small chance of being rejected for poor quality. Perhaps the game can keep track of how many items you've crafted at your current tier. If you've done the bare minimum just to get your skill up, then your chance for having your items rejected increases. 

    To be considered a master, you'd have to be at a skill level where you consistently (>90% of the time, e.g.) make top quality items for whatever your crafting specialty is. Since we're not actually physically crafting anything, just clicking a mouse and hitting keys, unless you're able to introduce some method of skill to that process, mastery will just be reaching a certain level.

    • 76 posts
    February 15, 2021 8:39 PM PST

    You could say that becoming a master at a profession is a matter of collection. But the danger there is that is a moving mark. Everytime new content is released, you are suddenly not a master anymore.

    You could define a master as someone who reaches the highest level available in their profession but then you suffer the same issue and also cheapen what it means to be a master.

    You could define a master as someone who intimately knows all of the ins and outs of their profession, and consistently provides great product/services as a result. But then the title is intangible and has no meaning within the confines of game mechanics.

     

    I would say, let the term remain ethereal. Let the community decide who they see as "masters" of a profession. Instead focus on designing a system that allows excellent crafters to shine so that they can be recognized for their individual artistry.

    -Gottbeard-

    • 133 posts
    February 16, 2021 8:46 AM PST

    The way I look at a crafting skill in a game is partially the way I look at it in real life. Anyone can do anything. I make a lot of things, both in terms of clothing and food, but I didn't start out knowing the things I do. That said, I saw something I liked and I saw something I wanted to eat, and just went. I'll use crochet for example as it's a little easier to explain vs cooking in my opinion, that and no one just has a hook and yarn laying around lol. When I started, I honestly didn't think I was going to be able to do it; none the less I went out, got a kit to start with and grabbed some yarn I thought looked nice and I was set. I knew nothing, and I mean NOT A THING. I dove head long into this thing and didn't even know how to read the language that is crochet; I had already made my first mistake. Second was the yarn. I picked a really nice ombre...but it wasn't the weight I needed for any of the projects in my kit; and thus I had to make my way back out to get more. Now, I didn't know there was a whole community out there of people at the time that knew what they were doing, I had no one to tell me, nor did I really have a great guide from my kit to help me either. As I went, I learned more and more, and I am still learning, even though I have been doing it for a number of years now.


    There are a lot of subtle nuances that go into actual real life skills, but in a game, I look at it with a few things in mind:


    1. Is it going to be tiresome and tedious to keep up with or even start?
    2. Is it going to be a pain to find materials for even the most basic of task or project?
    3. Is it going to cost me personally more to make it than it will to buy it; in time, materials, money, or all three?
    4. How is this going to benefit myself, a friend, or family that plays alongside myself?
    5. is this going to get easier as I go along, or is it ever just going to be more and more complicated, to the point where it becomes tedious and uninteresting?


    If the answer to any of these is outrageous, then it gets tossed aside as there are plenty of other farming and gathering sims such as Harvest Moon, Story of Seasons, Stardew Valley, just to name a few. Most, if not the vast majority of people look at fantasy MMO's as a place where people go on epic adventures and fight monsters, not waste time on gathering and farming just to craft some trinket or armor. If the crafting system is easy to start in, easy to keep up, and doesn't hinder their epic quests and monster slaying; then chances are they will do it if they are in between quest, or maybe start when they have reached max level. There are a very small few that just craft or make things in an MMO, especially a fantasy, and honestly, there are way better games to do that in aside from an epic adventure type game. That aside, I look at crafting the same way I look at any real life skill, to a point that is, and if it's going to act like a full time job inside of a gaming world then I want no part in it; I already have a full time job with both taking care a house and family, as well as working an actual full time job.

    Edit: Mastering a skill, to me, is someone who knows the basics and can do almost anything with those basics. Crochet has a few basic stitches in it that a person can utilize to make a great deal of wonderful looking items, but even the most intricate uses the very basics. I would also have to say that having a new person try to wade through the beginnings without any form of help or guidance is going to turn a lot of people off, even when I first started, I was ready to give up on it because I had no true way of learning even after I realized I had jumped head long in and that it was a mistake. Mastering a skill means you could wake up out of a dead sleep and start a basic stitch right away if asked to, like muscle memory. (I realized I forgot to add this part, sorry.)


    This post was edited by OCastitatisLilium at February 16, 2021 8:54 AM PST
    • 2138 posts
    February 17, 2021 10:38 AM PST

    Mastery: McGyver-ing a silk purse out of a Sow's ear.

    What I mean is: Kinda what Azaya said. If I could wish, and had money to throw at it. I would like to see mastery requiring a variety of recipes, and not repetition. Weighting being given to discovery of important  or odd/bizarre/unique combinations over rote combinations. For instance, apples and trout, apples and Cod, apples and trout and cod, apples and rat meat= low weighting. You can do it, it will just take a hecka long time. But, apples +cinnamon+sugar then bingo!= improved fortitude= higher weighting towards mastery. Apples+cinnamon+cloves+wine+heat = stamina regen + cold resist= degree movement towards mastery.

    Mayonaise, apples, celery, raisins, walnuts, lettuce (*barf*) - Bingo! Waldorf Salad=increased Cha to certain races that like it = degree movement towards mastery because of its culturally specific and obscure nature.

    And McGyver. What I mean is. A master baker should be like Rachel Ray raiding a recent college grad's fridge and making a meal out of a half container of chinese take-out rice, a cold slice of pizza, 20 ketchup packets and a can of green beans (french cut). a HOT meal. 

    But along the way, the master needs to be like Giada DeLaurentis, using only the finest and the best with known recipes with careful subcombines each of which could fail but the success of one- only one- is needed for a 4 or 5 degree movement towards mastery.

    If someone needs something, a master should be able to make it, no fail. If a master is out adventuring and needs something- the masters badge/totem acts like a reverse look-up or a google glass overlay that gives those perception clues as to what alternate uses the items can be used for and how they can be combined. Like the master is in a dessert dunegon and everyone is thirsty, master takes her badge/totem and inputs "drink" and a list comes up of things in the area that she can combine to make drinks. Wether they be good or bad depends on the masters remembered knowledge or her quest notes that she can look up in game separately like flipping open her notebook. (that cactus but not that one and some clay, Mashed, will produce a half a cup of potable water)