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Community Debate - Would you rather a game...

    • 9115 posts
    January 14, 2021 3:44 AM PST

    Community Debate - Would you rather a game you are following pushes an early release with many bugs and issues with the promise of regular fixes and updates or would you rather patiently wait for the game to be released in it's intended state? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters

    • 128 posts
    January 14, 2021 3:46 AM PST

    Wait.  Of course :)

    • 902 posts
    January 14, 2021 4:01 AM PST

    Depends on the release:

    Pre-alpha: many bugs: expected. Updates: as and when appropriate.

    Alpha: many bugs: acceptable. Updates frequent as appropriate.

    Beta: Few game play bugs. Glitches, quests problems, etc: acceptable. Update frequent.

    Release. Very few bugs. Updates: frequent if missed bugs show up.

    Personally I want to join the game as soon as possible, so am willing to put up with bugs in alpha and beta, but I would not be happy with many bugs in a full release. The more bugs there are at release, the more detrimental it would be to its sale value.  There will be bugs. Thats a given. But the number and severity must be low.


    This post was edited by chenzeme at January 14, 2021 4:02 AM PST
    • 39 posts
    January 14, 2021 5:01 AM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - Would you rather a game you are following pushes an early release with many bugs and issues with the promise of regular fixes and updates or would you rather patiently wait for the game to be released in it's intended state? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters

    So the real quesion is: Would you rather a game be like everquest that has lasted 20 years and counting, or Vanguard. RIP Vanguard.

    • 231 posts
    January 14, 2021 6:13 AM PST

    There is a frustration level beyond which people will just stop. It's difficult to move past a buggy, disastrous release, because word gets around.

    On one hand, FFXIV and ESO both did just that. But I keep remembering Vanguard.

    • 9 posts
    January 14, 2021 6:30 AM PST

    I'm all for the (mostly) patiently waiting! I'm not going to be all excited about playing a buggy game. Big problems with a game make it a frustrating, unpleasant place to be. I'm willing to wait a reasonable amount of time (years) for the game to be polished and (wait for it) immersive

    • 2419 posts
    January 14, 2021 6:46 AM PST

    chenzeme said:

    Depends on the release:

    Pre-alpha: many bugs: expected. Updates: as and when appropriate.

    Alpha: many bugs: acceptable. Updates frequent as appropriate.

    Beta: Few game play bugs. Glitches, quests problems, etc: acceptable. Update frequent.

    Release. Very few bugs. Updates: frequent if missed bugs show up.

    Personally I want to join the game as soon as possible, so am willing to put up with bugs in alpha and beta, but I would not be happy with many bugs in a full release. The more bugs there are at release, the more detrimental it would be to its sale value.  There will be bugs. Thats a given. But the number and severity must be low.

    You said it perfectly for when it comes to an MMO.  A single player game though?  Completely different matter.

    • 30 posts
    January 14, 2021 6:51 AM PST
    I'd gladly wait if VR manages to snag a publisher or another whale. Been playing the megamillions and nc powerball this week dreaming of being able to write ya'll a six or seven figure check. Realize the chances of that happening is akin to alpha being released this year. Not meant to be a low blow, just know VR is underfunded and understaffed at this moment. Now if VR doesn't get a mass influx of money then I'm up for an early release so people can subscribe for ya'll to receive a steady flow of income. This would be an early release like steam does and not a full blown release.
    • 144 posts
    January 14, 2021 7:17 AM PST

    How many games have we seen fail at their launch? SOO MANY games rush a game out and it turns out to be garbage and doesn't survive. 

    Vanguard? 

    Age of Conan? Game was GREAT up to lvl 20, but then there was nothing because the game wasn't finished. 

    You're welcome to roll that ugly child out at anytime in alpha and beta. But you simply CANNOT launch a game with out a legitimate effort to squash the bugs. 

    • 902 posts
    January 14, 2021 7:18 AM PST

    Vandraad: You said it perfectly for when it comes to an MMO.  A single player game though?  Completely different matter.

    I would be of the same opionion with it being an MMO or a single player game. However, I would be slightly more accepting of a single player than an MMO though. But only just.

    • 42 posts
    January 14, 2021 7:49 AM PST

    Absolutely wait until it's at its intended state before release as many people mentioned above there have been games that could never recover.  Also given that this is more niche than the MMOs in the market, new players not as openly knowing they want a challenging game, won't pick it up based upon popularity but instead on being reviewed well.

    All of that being said, there is a fine line of it being intended for release and a striving for absolute perfection/scope creep so this is where I would say take honest feedback during the later alpha stages and beta stages from your testers to get a gauge if it's ready for prime time.  There are many instances where game designers are ignorant when your call their baby ugly, telling them it's not ready for release and they don't accept that feedback releasing something like CP2077. The other side of the coin, artists can always see the flaws and it gets into this analysis paralysis of overthinking the problems and leaving it a perpetual state of change.

    In the end, I hope VR get's feedback final feedback from the pledge tier it currently is at before progresses to the next stage of development such as in order for it to be Alpha, it has to check all these boxes and Pre-alpha testers would agree in majority that this is the case and likewise for Alpha to Beta to Launch etc.

     

     

    • 3852 posts
    January 14, 2021 8:17 AM PST

    The obvious answer is to wait - but I would rather go a bit deeper into the question.

    Significant bugs and issues playing the content that we actually start with will just drive people away and start the game on a downward spiral - Vanguard a classic example but there are many others.

    Incomplete content is a horse of an entirely different color. Here is where your reference to "the promise of regular fixes and updates " come in.

    In a game with slow advancement you can get away with leaving out the level 40-50 zones at release and saying that the level 30-40 zones are buggy as heck but they will be in great shape before anyone but a "play 20 hours a day no-lifer" can get there. Is this ideal - obviously not. But it is far better than having the level 1-20 zones crappy. Those *need* to be smooth and polished at release.

    Features like housing which many MMOs add after release can be ...added after release. 

    As long as the starting experience is smooth and polished you can even get away with having some things that might properly be described as game features rather than content wait a bit. Ideally with some assurances such as "we are working on this and expect to patch it into the game relatively early on. This is not a feature that we intend to be delayed until a future expansion". 

    By features I mean that, for example,  you could leave out a race or two or a class or two. Not desirable - but we all know that games often add races and classes down the road from release. 

    You wouldn't even get a firestorm of protest if you held back on having a cosmetic store (sorry couldn't resist that one).

     

    • 392 posts
    January 14, 2021 8:57 AM PST

    I like to think I'm a patient man, I vote wait.

    • 96 posts
    January 14, 2021 9:07 AM PST

    As @jstsunami mentioned, as long as the VR dev team doesn't get "analysis paralysis" then I'd say continue to wait until things are complete (or close enough that they can be perfected at a later time). I've been working with someone who has this issue and while the work he's doing is great, he just talks and talks about this and that overthinking every single possible thing that may or may not happen because he can never get any coding done. I don't want that. Work hard, do what you can to commit to your design goals and timelines, then get after it. If there's some things that you think could definitely wait until post release, then put it on your "future enhancements/completions" list. I'm finishing up a web application right now where I had to do just that. Who knows, what you thought was a bug may turn out to just become a feature! (I hate those lol)

     

    tl;dr I vote to wait until a more polished game is completed, then release. Fix non-game-breaking issues after-the-fact. 

    • 810 posts
    January 14, 2021 10:39 AM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - Would you rather a game you are following pushes an early release with many bugs and issues with the promise of regular fixes and updates or would you rather patiently wait for the game to be released in it's intended state? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters

    It is not a binary choice but a series of landmines to avoid. Find those landmines.  Make sure you do not launch with them. 

    Is the game stable?  Crashing and losing not just your corpse but your group in a game that punishes deaths is a game ruining experience.   
    Do abilities do what they say?  Elder scrolls mmo just left some abilities doing nothing but giving you a pretty icon if that were my class I would have quit the day I realized it. 
    Did you fix outrageous game breaking exploits/balance?  Is the tank the highest DPS in the game?  Is the wizard the best tank?  Does levitation turn you into the Flash?
    Can friends find eachother in game?  
    Do you have a basic system in place to stop hackers and griefers? 
    Do animations lock up or anything glaringly bad in combat?  Perma T posing knights grunting people to death will only be funny the first time it happens.

     

    If the nice textures don't load on the rocks in a zone I won't be quitting the game.  It would be nice if all textures work, but that is not something that will make me quit.  If there is a parade of crab walking PCs in the middle of town I will laugh at the silly bug and join in.  If players find a way to climb to the top of the castle in the starting area via unintended mechanics I do not care.  I am sure none of those are the "indended" state of the game, but they are perfectly fine for a launch.  Just avoid the landmines...

    • 441 posts
    January 14, 2021 12:10 PM PST

    Depends on how its done.

     

    If you made a starting city for all classes and races, (dont forget Bards) with enough map to play all levels, dungeons to keep me busy. Some soild polish and all systems. Then added each races areas with more content over time. I would be down for that.

     

    If it was the whole game and all areas but not all systems and not a good amount of polish. I would want nothing to do with it.

     

    Buggy, highly unploished means many would drop the game. 

    • 2138 posts
    January 14, 2021 12:37 PM PST

    I was thinking about this today but on a different level! I was even thinking about making a post but with a different slant.

    Let's face it. Pantheon more than likely will have some bugs on release. Even though it has been in patient production for some years with a dedicated team- there might be some "quirks and features".

    I am not expecting a perfect game on release. If it IS, it will certainly raise the bar across the board to the point where the devs as we know them will start being poached by Big publishers with fat salaries and I DONT want that to happen. I want them to stay fat and comfortable and happy with this creation.

    But that raises a question to me, would I prefer a seamless game and buggy client-side issues? (cant log in, got charged twice)

    or would I prefer seamless client side issues, but buggy game mechanics? (Door shut on me and I could not get out even when another opened the door, fell to my death from jumping up from solid ground).

    I would rather see client side issues tbh. But its that side that would create the most clamor because thats where the "you owe me / vaporware" mentailty will come and rightly so. I paid for X and got a lemon- I'll sue! then suddenly the devs are on a placating mission UNLESS they word the EULA well enough and stand by it.  

    Oh and by the way? VR should Patent and trademark "Pre-alpha" Lest any other publishers start jumping on the bandwagon.


    This post was edited by Manouk at January 14, 2021 12:48 PM PST
    • 46 posts
    January 14, 2021 2:51 PM PST

    My opinion on this would be to release when it is done (intended state) but have an open beta with problems that is easily accessable.. 

    • 1992 posts
    January 14, 2021 3:25 PM PST

    I have no problem waiting patiently until the game releases. At the same time, I am retired and don't wish to HAVE to beat the 'average life expectancy' for American males in order to play the game lol.

    As several people have emphasized, this is not a black & white issue. There are always bugs. Some level of problems is acceptable at launch, too many is not.

    Being retired with lots of free time (one of those 'no-lifers' that some have been denigrating lately) who expects to play a lot but level slowly, I agree with Dorotea's point. Having higher level content in the game at release is not a major issue for me. I think Crafting & Perception are too fundamental to not be in and polished at start.

    As defined by Manouk, I think I would also have less complaints with client side issues than game issues. For example: If I can't log in sometimes, but when I do I get to play a great game that is everything I hoped for, I'll be less bothered than if I have no issues with installation and login but there is always some nagging bug that interferes with gameplay. Of course the frequency of "sometimes" is likely way different for me than for someone with a very busy life who only gets to play on Sunday afternoons.

     

     

    • 56 posts
    January 14, 2021 3:44 PM PST
    A MMO will be DoA with almost no chance of recovery if released in a messy state. There are tons if MMOs in the graveyard but Wildstar and Vanguard especially come to mind. They had better chances than most but forced launches ensured their demise.
    • 3852 posts
    January 14, 2021 4:13 PM PST

    ((Being retired with lots of free time (one of those 'no-lifers' that some have been denigrating lately) who expects to play a lot but level slowly, I agree with Dorotea's point.))

    I can assure you that I intended no denigration by using the term "no lifer" in quotes. I too am retired and can play many hours a day. And, like you, getting to maximum level fast will not be my goal. But some people will speed-level just to be "the first" or one of the first to reach various things and my point was that it is reasonable for VR to ignore this and focus the timing on when things will be available to play based on how fast less driven people will get there.

    • 334 posts
    January 14, 2021 5:23 PM PST

    Something something Cyberpunk 2077. A buggy, unfinished release has to be extremely well-calculated. Even if the game is fixed eventually, the reputation can be permanently harmed (see: No Man's Sky).

    • 220 posts
    January 14, 2021 6:08 PM PST

    I would need candid information from the developers as to their top reason (asside from all others) for doing so in order to determine if such a move was something I could get behind, because otherwise I would rather wait until the game was completed.


    This post was edited by Nekentros at January 15, 2021 6:56 AM PST
    • 633 posts
    January 14, 2021 6:13 PM PST

    Vanguard didn't die because of bugginess, it died because of incomplete content.  Either way though, I prefer the game to be released in its intended state, though I don't expect it to be bug free.

    • 28 posts
    January 14, 2021 8:19 PM PST

    chenzeme said:

    Depends on the release:

    Pre-alpha: many bugs: expected. Updates: as and when appropriate.

    Alpha: many bugs: acceptable. Updates frequent as appropriate.

    Beta: Few game play bugs. Glitches, quests problems, etc: acceptable. Update frequent.

    Release. Very few bugs. Updates: frequent if missed bugs show up.

    Personally I want to join the game as soon as possible, so am willing to put up with bugs in alpha and beta, but I would not be happy with many bugs in a full release. The more bugs there are at release, the more detrimental it would be to its sale value.  There will be bugs. Thats a given. But the number and severity must be low.

     

    I agree... incluing joining the game in alpha and beta.