Shout out to @PatheonPlus for getting a hold of Joppa for a few more questions following yesterday's stream.
I havn't heard much of anything regarding PvP for years, but @Therek asked Joppa if anything has changed with the plans for a PvP enabled server at launch.
Joppa said nothing has changed with the plans for a PvP server. He emphasied that the E-Sports model of PvP (think WoW arena's) is not their path:"we're not interested in E-sports... where that surgical [class] balance is the prime directive. I'm much more interested and intrigued by taking this well-developed, immersive, multi-layered world and figuring out ways that PvP could occur in a world like that where it's less about meters and E-sports and more about true open world alliances and skirmishes..."
As someone who very much wants a PvP aspect in my MMO, this was very heartening to hear. Hopefully statements like these can help bridge the gap between the folks who want a PvP experience and those who believe it will ruin the PvE experience. I believe they want to do it in a way that does not affect a PvE server player's experience. As he said, "surgical balance" is not the goal, therefor they won't be pressured to manipulate the classes (in a PvE negative way) to reach that objective.
I don't think there are many (probably zero ?) hardcore PvP E-sport players looking at Pantheon as their next platform to become competitive on. I think the vast majority of MMO players that have been waiting decades for this game, who also want PvP, are more in line with Joppa's vision. I personally enjoy that sense of player control, organically developed social PvP norms, danger, and unkown friend or foe that come from allowing PvP alongside my PvE experience in an open world.
If the PvP gets scrapped and this game is 100% PvE only, I'm still going to love it, but it won't get my hairs standing up or my blood flowing quite as much.
I was also very happy with Joppa's comments with the PVP aspect of the game. I think PVP is a nice addition to these games as it provides an additional layer of "risk" in an open world. I really hope Pantheon adopts the EQ system of lvl requirements for fights. I think it should be within 4 levels or so in order to avoid players ganking other players to an absurd degree. I also wouldn't mind a pvp restriction until like level 5 or 10. Since gold and bags are left on the body after death, perhaps gold loot for kills?
There's a lot I could say in regards to PvP. I've expected Joppa's vision of Pantheon pvp to line up with what he just recently said. No Esports, everything in perfect place for classes,etc.
Certainly need lvl restrictions to keep a lvl 60 from killing a lvl 30. That is simply not PvP. Wow left it open and Im 100% positive that actually hurt the game as it drove people away because they were repeatedly killed and were prevented from even playing the game as assholes would prevent you from even calling home. Was completely unbelievable they allowed that to continue. That's not even what PvP is.
And in regards to balancing, I fully expect them to balance the classes in pvp with a group pvp environment in mind. This is a group focus game, and it makes sense to balance all the pvp classes around being a group rather than balancing them all against each other. That means that certain classes will absolutely be more powerful in a group and trash solo and vice versa. Some classes will be stronger than others. This makes it easier to balance overall, and also keeps the group mentality alive.
I don't expect perfect balance and esport type of skills required to pvp. But if pantheon launched without a pvp server, I would play it ONLY until another game like ashes of creation or camelot unchained launched and then I would be gone unfortunately.
it's less about meters and E-sports and more about true open world alliances and skirmishes..."
This gives me some hope that they may at least consider a faction-based system where the fighting is for your people or your cause rather than just to murder anyone you can to get rank or loot. I find that version of pvp so ...amoral.
I totally agree that a system where you can't attack someone too many levels below you unless they attack you or buff or heal your enemies is a better system.
Well. That means no dedicated pvp content and rewards, in what is it an issue ? Pvp in modern game has allways been a specific content with specific infrastructures and rewards, which was most of the time overlapping on logic and emphasing on some kind of "sport". Does not sound very RPG and realistic to me.
Mauve, I was also confused on your first comment, but yes I 100% agree.
I dont want rewards, badges, titles , or anything of the sort. I want PvP to be a natural eb and flow, living and breathing a bit different on each server.
The only reward I want is my reputation on the server, the alliances I create, and feeling the satisfaction of victory or the pain of defeat. I'm open to different approaches, whether there be level limitations, zone limitations, or a potential faction system.
One example of why I like PvP: My group is fighting some mobs to clear a spot to mine a rare node. Mr. Solo Farmer runs up and tries to steal node... PvE server "Hey, that's not cool! We're mad at you". PvP server, "have fun running back to your body".
I think a good balance for a game like this is having an open-world PvP zone within PvE servers, with no specific class tuning for PvP (or at the very least, having abilities separated from PvE for balancing purposes, no PvP tuning should ever impact a class' capability in PvE). With a design like this, servers stay healthily populated and when people desire PvP, they can go get some action without always finding themselves on edge. Of course, I don't think there's anything wrong with dedicated PvP servers, either, peresonally I just don't think they tend to remain healthy and alive long-term.
Sicario said:I think a good balance for a game like this is having an open-world PvP zone within PvE servers, with no specific class tuning for PvP (or at the very least, having abilities separated from PvE for balancing purposes, no PvP tuning should ever impact a class' capability in PvE). With a design like this, servers stay healthily populated and when people desire PvP, they can go get some action without always finding themselves on edge. Of course, I don't think there's anything wrong with dedicated PvP servers, either, peresonally I just don't think they tend to remain healthy and alive long-term.
I can't speak for others, but I'm not interested in a PvP zone to go "blow of some steam" or whatever you wanna call it. I want potential PvP danger to be in the back of my mind while playing the PvE content. Again there can be some zone things or level limiations to an extent, but not go to your PvP area and leave us PvE's alone. That's where the servers come into play.
Kass said:Sicario said:I think a good balance for a game like this is having an open-world PvP zone within PvE servers, with no specific class tuning for PvP (or at the very least, having abilities separated from PvE for balancing purposes, no PvP tuning should ever impact a class' capability in PvE). With a design like this, servers stay healthily populated and when people desire PvP, they can go get some action without always finding themselves on edge. Of course, I don't think there's anything wrong with dedicated PvP servers, either, peresonally I just don't think they tend to remain healthy and alive long-term.
I can't speak for others, but I'm not interested in a PvP zone to go "blow of some steam" or whatever you wanna call it. I want potential PvP danger to be in the back of my mind while playing the PvE content. Again there can be some zone things or level limiations to an extent, but not go to your PvP area and leave us PvE's alone. That's where the servers come into play.
I completely understand, I come from dedicated PvP servers as well and have fond memories. Despite a hardcore PvP background, I'm just being realistic. Those servers tend to fade or embrace toxicity fairly fast. As I said, I think dedicated PvP servers are fine, I'm just posing an option for PvP action on PvE servers as well. These ideas are not mutually exclusive.
Yes I heard Joppa's comments and what struck me was how much of a non-answer he gave. If memory serves, he was lobbed an open-ended question to discuss VR's plans for PvP in Pantheon.
Instead, of giving a precise, detailed, and articulate answer to the question about how PvP will be implemented in Pantheon, he gave a rambling answer about e-sports and meters and some grandstanding about what's wrong with PvP in other games.
In other words, he doesn't have an answer to the question. It's clear that PvP is the furthest thing from his mind, as it should be. VR clearly have their hands full with making a minimally viable demo for investors, much less launching a fully fleshed PvE MMORPG, much much less launching a fully fleshed PvX MMORPG.
The development of Pantheon has been a comedy of errors through the years, and clinging to the idea that there may be any semblence of intentional development effort put towards a successful implementation of PvP is just another error at this point. VR should just cut their losses, explain that thier game is soley being developed with PvE in mind, and at most they will have a server where players can toggle a flag for PvP, but that they are otherwise making no effort to design the game with PvP in mind.
Considering how far this game has to go, if VR are still planning to make a good faith effort to develop for PvP they are clearly not aware of their own limitations, and the comedy of errors will grow.
Kass said:Sicario said:I think a good balance for a game like this is having an open-world PvP zone within PvE servers, with no specific class tuning for PvP (or at the very least, having abilities separated from PvE for balancing purposes, no PvP tuning should ever impact a class' capability in PvE). With a design like this, servers stay healthily populated and when people desire PvP, they can go get some action without always finding themselves on edge. Of course, I don't think there's anything wrong with dedicated PvP servers, either, peresonally I just don't think they tend to remain healthy and alive long-term.
I can't speak for others, but I'm not interested in a PvP zone to go "blow of some steam" or whatever you wanna call it. I want potential PvP danger to be in the back of my mind while playing the PvE content. Again there can be some zone things or level limiations to an extent, but not go to your PvP area and leave us PvE's alone. That's where the servers come into play.
I'm with you there bud, I enjoy potential PvP danger. It adds to the danger of the unknown, so to speak. It also encourages you to travel with a friend or two ;)
But, PvP zones are probably the only way to bridge the gap between us without further segregating the community to their respective PVP & PVE servers.
Hear me out -
Make the PvP zones as 'shortcuts' to iconic areas, which tempts people to travel through it rather than some arbitrary 'blow of some steam' zones.
The iconic areas would still be accessible through normal PvE zones. It just adds to the incentive because it has some utility.
I personally enjoy that sense of player control, organically developed social PvP norms, danger, and unkown friend or foe that come from allowing PvP alongside my PvE experience in an open world.
Something along the lines of this sentence should be the tenet for PvP development.
