Will Pantheon be a fun leveling game? I dont have the time I used to so not playing a game till you grind to cap level wont work for me. I know Pantheon plans to make it more fun leveling than what you get in other MMOs but how will certain mechanics work? I played EQ long ago and though I grouped to level because the games like this were new to me if you play on some legacy server now you will find soloing is usually faster and better.
First off will leveling actually be fast enough in a group that it is worth building the group versus soloing? Often times it is hard to get a group so it is best not to waste any time looking for one and to just solo. Is there any chance grouping will overtake these setbacks for experience gain?
Next will we maybe get a cooler reward for grouping in the form of better loot? The issue with this one is higher level characters running around. Back in old Estate of unrest there were certain rare spawn bosses both in the tower and in the basement meant for people of the appropriate level and in a group to kill for that particular area. However instead these monsters were just perma camped by soloing cap level players. If not for themselves they did it to sell or to give to an alt. Virtually no one used a group to progress through any low level dungeon to camp a decent spawn. In Pantheon will high level players just be able to come in and solo all of this stuff leaving me back to soloing?
What are the plans here?
1. Leave it be EQ had it right and was great.
2. Don't make the difference between a raid geared level 50 and a full group of level 20s so different that the 50 can just tromp around and do whatever he wants.
3. Gate with bind on pickup gear.
4. Force low level bosses to run in fear of high level players upon spawning by them or seeing them so the player gets trained from a giant pack of level 20s and dies discouraging this behavior.
5. Something else?
zendrel said:2. Don't make the difference between a raid geared level 50 and a full group of level 20s so different that the 50 can just tromp around and do whatever he wants.
If I remember EQ2 correctly, if you were 10(ish?) levels higher than the MOB, it would be grayed out and you would get no loot or exp from killing it. I remember having issues with this mechanic because I couldn't farm good gear for my smurfs, but I also don't recall overlevelled individuals camping the spawns I needed.
Might be a possible solution for your concern.
Smurgle said:If I remember EQ2 correctly, if you were 10(ish?) levels higher than the MOB, it would be grayed out and you would get no loot or exp from killing it. I remember having issues with this mechanic because I couldn't farm good gear for my smurfs, but I also don't recall overlevelled individuals camping the spawns I needed.
Might be a possible solution for your concern.
No experience I remember but loot still dropped.
To the original post. I also have less time but I also like the idea of the game taking longer to play than EQ and I played EQ for longer than any other MMO. I guess in short, I am not convened EQ was the best it could be, but out of your options I would pick #1. Well one thing I did like in Vanguard for named. Some of the named would only spawn once you triggered it. So, the whole dungeon was open but the triggered mob would be locked to your group.
My hope is that just playing the game at any level is fun and challenging. My hope is that the challenge will make grouping not required but an obvious solution on how to overcome the challenge.
zendrel said:Will Pantheon be a fun leveling game? I dont have the time I used to so not playing a game till you grind to cap level wont work for me. I know Pantheon plans to make it more fun leveling than what you get in other MMOs but how will certain mechanics work? I played EQ long ago and though I grouped to level because the games like this were new to me if you play on some legacy server now you will find soloing is usually faster and better.
First off will leveling actually be fast enough in a group that it is worth building the group versus soloing? Often times it is hard to get a group so it is best not to waste any time looking for one and to just solo. Is there any chance grouping will overtake these setbacks for experience gain?
Next will we maybe get a cooler reward for grouping in the form of better loot? The issue with this one is higher level characters running around. Back in old Estate of unrest there were certain rare spawn bosses both in the tower and in the basement meant for people of the appropriate level and in a group to kill for that particular area. However instead these monsters were just perma camped by soloing cap level players. If not for themselves they did it to sell or to give to an alt. Virtually no one used a group to progress through any low level dungeon to camp a decent spawn. In Pantheon will high level players just be able to come in and solo all of this stuff leaving me back to soloing?
What are the plans here?
1. Leave it be EQ had it right and was great.
2. Don't make the difference between a raid geared level 50 and a full group of level 20s so different that the 50 can just tromp around and do whatever he wants.
3. Gate with bind on pickup gear.
4. Force low level bosses to run in fear of high level players upon spawning by them or seeing them so the player gets trained from a giant pack of level 20s and dies discouraging this behavior.
5. Something else?
The levelling experience in those first 3 or 4 years of EQ's shelflife, was phenomenal. It was what the game was about for the most part. I hope we can capture that in essence.
Later on progress became more on reliant gear.
Both Luclin then Planes really kind of started shifting it to a marathon-on-end-game-scripted-multi-tiered-raiding-ladder-content-for-72-people-at-a-time-with-narration. Which at the time was a fairly novel concept among internet gaming nerds across the world.
arazons said:The levelling experience in those first 3 or 4 years of EQ's shelflife, was phenomenal. It was what the game was about for the most part. I hope we can capture that in essence.
Later on progress became more on reliant gear.
Both Luclin then Planes really kind of started shifting it to a marathon-on-end-game-scripted-multi-tiered-raiding-ladder-content-for-72-people-at-a-time-with-narration. Which at the time was a fairly novel concept among internet gaming nerds across the world.
This seems a bit off. Luclin came out in 2001 and Pop 2002. When you say "Later on progress became more on reliant gear." It was a bit sooner than you remember. It wasnt "3 or 4 years" before the gear shift.
The other thing is that 72 person raids didnt happen until much later during Pop. There was no 72 person cap on the raid window originally (there was no raid window). Raids werent capped until the game had already been declining. During its "prime" EQs raids did not have a cap.
Maybe I am misunderstanding but I feel you derive a significant protion of the fun in leveling from getting (closer) to max level. I feel that is putting the cart before the horse especially if you only have limited time. I would not worry about higher level players taking your spawns, or if they do just relocate. this is an mmo so you signed up for some type of social friction
If the core gameplay is fun, then just play it for the fun of it and make getting to max level a secondary goal. As a concrete example, when I first joined my first MMO, most people were already at max level because the game was in its first expansion. There was thus no need to race and catch up since doing that was unlikely to happen to begin with. So instead I approached leveling much more as a "let's play this game for fun first.' Thus, I fell in love with doing group content, I would do this content more than the more efficient single player quests. I still got to max level, maybe not as quickly as I could have, but I definitely had as much fun as I could have had.
tldr: if you cannot compete in whatever race it is you imagine yourself to be in, then don't compete and find the fun in running the race course instead. You'll get to the finish line much more reliably and enjoyably that way.
philo said:arazons said:The levelling experience in those first 3 or 4 years of EQ's shelflife, was phenomenal. It was what the game was about for the most part. I hope we can capture that in essence.
Later on progress became more on reliant gear.
Both Luclin then Planes really kind of started shifting it to a marathon-on-end-game-scripted-multi-tiered-raiding-ladder-content-for-72-people-at-a-time-with-narration. Which at the time was a fairly novel concept among internet gaming nerds across the world.
This seems a bit off. Luclin came out in 2001 and Pop 2002. When you say "Later on progress became more on reliant gear." It was a bit sooner than you remember. It wasnt "3 or 4 years" before the gear shift.
The other thing is that 72 person raids didnt happen until much later during Pop. There was no 72 person cap on the raid window originally (there was no raid window). Raids werent capped until the game had already been declining. During its "prime" EQs raids did not have a cap.
Sorry I should have been more clear, my point of reference is based on my personal experience... Personally it took me years to get to max level the first time. So yes for me that shift to "gear" didnt occur until 3 or 4 years in.
Kishmet said:As a concrete example, when I first joined my first MMO, most people were already at max level
My first MMO was a MUD called "Gemstone III" back in like 1986-ish. Max level was 100, but it took over a year of hard-core 12+ hours a day for 365+ days grinding to get that far, and most people just didn't care about end level. Everyone was out for the journey and your level just happened to be whatever it was that day. I still remember watching a guy sheath his "vultite broadsword" (Vultite was a metal that could only be held by someone who was level 20+) and thinking 'Wow! That guy has vultite!" (after 2-3 month of playing, I was level 12ish). lol. It was all about experiencing the journey. It's the only MMO I truly miss! :-)
edit: spelling
Kishmet said:Maybe I am misunderstanding but I feel you derive a significant protion of the fun in leveling from getting (closer) to max level. I feel that is putting the cart before the horse especially if you only have limited time. I would not worry about higher level players taking your spawns, or if they do just relocate. this is an mmo so you signed up for some type of social friction
If the core gameplay is fun, then just play it for the fun of it and make getting to max level a secondary goal. As a concrete example, when I first joined my first MMO, most people were already at max level because the game was in its first expansion. There was thus no need to race and catch up since doing that was unlikely to happen to begin with. So instead I approached leveling much more as a "let's play this game for fun flirst.' Thus, I fell in love with doing group content, I would do this content more than the more efficient single player quests. I still got to max level, maybe not as quickly as I could have, but I definitely had as much fun as I could have had.tldr: if you cannot compete in whatever race it is you imagine yourself to be in, then don't compete and find the fun in running the race course instead. You'll get to the finish line much more reliably and enjoyably that way.
It's nit that I want a chance to race hardcore people to cap level. I just want grouping to actually happen at low levels. I just dont see that happening without there being an incentive like dungeon loot. The issue with loot is any good camp will be soloed by cap level players if the drops are any good at all. Only having grouping give better exp is a problem just because after you account for building the group and replacing people soloing is the way to level the fastest. So what will the incentives even be?
zendrel said:It's nit that I want a chance to race hardcore people to cap level. I just want grouping to actually happen at low levels. I just dont see that happening without there being an incentive like dungeon loot. The issue with loot is any good camp will be soloed by cap level players if the drops are any good at all. Only having grouping give better exp is a problem just because after you account for building the group and replacing people soloing is the way to level the fastest. So what will the incentives even be?
I wonder if they are still going to have mid level raids with some sort of level cap so higher level players cant participate? This has been talked about multiple times but we havent heard anything about it recently.
That seems like it would alleviate your concern.
Are you aware that there will be encounters that if you take more people than intended, or are higher level than intended, the mobs will react? The mob might spawn friends to help or run away (despawn).
My personal opinion is these type of systems can be added later and if it isnt about the base game making it to release it should not be thought about currently.
They have talked about a lot of systems over the years that arent making it into the game. Unsure where we are at with this?
zendrel said:It's nit that I want a chance to race hardcore people to cap level. I just want grouping to actually happen at low levels. I just dont see that happening without there being an incentive like dungeon loot. The issue with loot is any good camp will be soloed by cap level players if the drops are any good at all. Only having grouping give better exp is a problem just because after you account for building the group and replacing people soloing is the way to level the fastest. So what will the incentives even be?
Personally I think solo activities should take a considerably greater amount of time to achieve the same amount of experience as what grouping or group content would net. Soloing should not have parity in terms of the speed at which you can level.
Raid content should net little to no experience gain.
arazons said:Personally I think solo activities should take a considerably greater amount of time to achieve the same amount of experience as what grouping or group content would net. Soloing should not have parity in terms of the speed at which you can level.
Raid content should net little to no experience gain.
I agree that Raid should be about loot and fun not exp gain, but I would caution against harming solo players too much. While this is an MMO, some people like to play them for the social aspect, but also like hunting alone. I think that solo players should get more exp per kill, and the balance is in that adventurer groups can kill more mobs per minute than a solo player can.
They have already mentioned how they were going to have stats on gear and follow the generic "number go up" mentality of other MMOs. Improved gear sets every 10 levels or so. I imagine this will push them towards god mode level ranges like WoW. Greyed out mobs that don't drop anything worth value / have a reduce drop rate or something to that effect.
I personally wish they went back to their roots of tabletop games / early EQ. Other than cool rare items you were running around in cloth, leather, chain, or plate. Therefore your lvl 30 wizard is not effectively immune to damage after 15 levels. HP doesn't scale into the millions with armor to let you run naked through the tribe of warriors taunting them. Give a few varieties for various looks. Let a lvl 40 be afraid of lvl 20s. Sadly from what I have heard that ship has sailed.
The good news is key Magical items in high demand across the world from various camps. No longer lvl 50s NEEDing the lvl 20 item like back in EQ since there is now also a lvl 45 version of the magical item (more or less) that is better. This should cut down on the farming / the demand of lower level camps.
I honestly don't care if my PC has the same mundane wand for 50 levels. It is far preferable to me than having 20 wands as I level up that I just treat just like the mundane generic wand... I should get back to yelling at clouds.
arazons said: Personally I think solo activities should take a considerably greater amount of time to achieve the same amount of experience as what grouping or group content would net. Soloing should not have parity in terms of the speed at which you can level.
Totally agree. I also think that it was pretty straightforwardly supported by VR in statements in the past, though I honestly don't remember hearing it mentioned anytime recently. And anything can change.
I have been one of the more vocal proponants of making solo play viable in Pantheon. I think it is good for the game and expands the number of potential subscribers if there are productive things to do if you cannot group (not enough time or too many interruptions) or simply are not in the mood. With exploring the world being of interest to many - this seems like the type of thing that shouldn't require a group. If it takes a group to kill a large rat in a starter zone - exploration will be considerably cur-tailed.
I refer solely to landscape exploring and adventuring. I am entirely comfortable with 100% of all dungeon content being intended for groups.
But I, along with many here, do not want a game where there is no particular reason to group and you can get to maximum level as fast or faster solo. There are quite a few games like that as we all know - there is no need for another. So soloing should not suck the life out of grouping by being an equal or better way to progress. If it gives half the xp per minute or 2/3 that will limit it to the niche where it belongs - a fully viable but also fully inferior approach.
Raids should be about fun, skill and (loot up to a point) but not xp. I also dont subscribe to the view that raids should be the only way to get best in slot. With a bit of imagination adventuring/questing/crafting/raiding could all provide comparable equipment. Raids dont have to provide the only way to get BiS. Yes completing a raid shows skill, and I dont want to devalue that game play, but does it have to provide BiS? Im not so sure. Maybe the equipment found in raids could have an extra effect that only becomes active in a raid situation otherwise it is comparable to other equipment when not in a raid formation? There are other types of rewards that could be handed out that are not equipment based too; titles, insignia, faction, quest lines, housing, etc., etc.
Personally, I dont think camping a spawn point is fun. Yes some people like the down time between spawns, but for me it is more of a chore than something to look forward to. There was talk about named mobs not always spawning in the same place so camping would not be easy. Guilds would probably camp all spawn points if the mob had something exceptional, so it would not be a total fix. I also dont think camping is difficult, just tedious, but that has been covered in other threads. Getting shiny new equipment should be fun and rewarding. I think the combination of good, crafted items and good mob drops will see camping as not such a big issue as it has been in other games. In my view, there should be multiple ways of getting good equipment, not just camping or raiding.
Personally I much prefer quest lines to provide great equipment, with exploring, crafting, grouping, questing, factions, etc. all playing a part in acquiring that choice item. I would also love to see equipment that can be upgraded or changed in some manner.
However a player should be allowed to progress and have fun however they want to play and have it be rewarding in terms of game play and loot. With a bit of imagination, I dont think raiding must be the main focus to acquire the best game gear.
I like the principle to make leveling fun, I really don't like when the biggest fun is mainly focused on max level raids cause it turns leveling into a rush in which the players choose their activities considering xp gain and not pleasure. To go further, I even now think that the game should not offer max level raid zone at release (and even expansion release), not to encourage the rush too much. A nice system could be that each time max level is increased, the corresponding raid zones being added x months after release and the access to the raid zone being opened through a world event requiring massive effort from all players (remembering WoW access to Ahn Qiraj for example).
I'm also concerned by the fact that a game that do not attract new players through time becomes more and more fragile and ends up dying cause players loss through time is unavoidable. And I fear that if after 3 or 4 expansions new players have to spend considerable playtime to reach a level they can have fun, they just won't do it. These are issues we have to address if we want Pantheon being successful through years.
I prefer if almost all the dropped items in the game were bind on pick up. I know I am probably in the minority here but i feel like you should have to be there to earn your item. The idea of trade sounds nice but the reality is that BOE items will just promote gold buying and gold farmers, people will do anything they can to get ahead in modern mmo's and swiping that credit card is a sure fire way to do so if you can buy most items from others.
You can say sure we will police all the gold farmers and botters, but actually doing so is going to take a crazy amount of manpower and hours, probably more than the team would be able to handle. Even bigger more successful mmo's cant police that kind of behavior very well with their large teams.