Forums » Crafting

Crafting Fundamentals!

    • 584 posts
    January 1, 2021 3:48 AM PST

    Barin999 said: "If I construct a metal sword and I salvage that metal sword. Why would I expect anything else coming from that?"

    Vandraad said: "I would expect th at this 'small chance of finding something unexpected' does not apply to player made items.  Because if I've just made a plain ol' steel sword, and I melt it back down, I shouldn't find anything other than steel.  Otherwise you're going to have materials popping into existence from nothing."

    Perhaps the % chance could depend on how much 'use' that item has gotten. Maybe a hidden 'successful hits' count on weapons or a 'successfully blocked hit' count for armours.

    When a sword is freshly created it has a 0% chance to get extra suprises from salvage, but after it drinks the blood of a thousand cuts it has 1% chance, and after 10,000 cuts it has 2%, after 50,000 cuts it has 3%, after 250,000 cuts it has 4%, etc... due to it absorbing the life essences of it's victims or perhaps just absorbing traces of minerals from enemy armours or natural hides/carapaces.

    • 522 posts
    January 1, 2021 6:06 AM PST

    This sounds great to me so far.  Obviously will need to get a feel for it in game, but very Vanguard-esque and the harvesting sounds more interesting.  Still waiting to hear about the mini-game, thought that was the best part of Vanguard's crafting.

    • 15 posts
    January 6, 2021 8:29 PM PST

    Hello to you all, my wonderful gamers!

    My two cents: PINK FLUFFY UNICORNS DANCING ON RAINBOWS! <-- This will make more sense after you read my "Post #4 by Nephele: bullet 3" response.

    Post #1 by Convo: Thank you for taking the time to explain what you did. Your efforts are appreciated. Thank you.

    Post #3 by Vjek: Well said on your initial post. Loved every point you made, particularly:

    1)      Common materials need some sort of infinite consumable use (durability repair, sharpening kit buff, used as a catalyst for something higher tier, etc.) or else we’ll have stockpiles of thousands. Never underestimate the end-game gamer with no life, there are dozens of us… DOZENS! (no, that’s just a meme, really half your server will be max-level dedicated gatherers/crafters.) Think long term for this, not just the first few months. Two, five, twenty years down the road you will either have a saturated market or you won’t. There is no in-between... Even your coveted (for the first two months only) “celestial dust” will be stockpiled by the thousands if you don’t have infinitly consumable plans for its use.

    2)      RNG (or RNJesu* for those who have come to use the concept as a curse) gathering, crafting, or freaking .05% raid drop rate -UGH- is just another name for “loot box gambling”. Does the concept sound appealing of harvesting node after node, or running the same raid 100 times a day hoping that “just the next node/raid” will be my salvation for the “insert rare item here” that I need…? WoW capitalized on this concept hard-core, and it’s nothing more than a cheap trick to create artificial ceilings on product, try to keep you playing the game longer with the “just one more” concept, or try to artificially increase end-game content replayability -- see this new dungeon? Well you will have to grind it 10,000 times to get that one item you want!

    Games are supposed to be fun, and RNG/RNJ mechanics aren’t fun, they are just frustrating. (I still can’t play Darkest Dungeon for more than 100-hour stints at a time…)

    3)      Metal chunks to bars equals a 3=1 ratio. I agree that this is another artificial method of delaying crafting, and encouraging bots. Set the ratio at 1=1, and then do what FF14 does and have a non-macroable GUI where you can choose what you are harvesting COMPLETELY negating apathy and bots at the same time. Maybe even on top of that, add a crafting-style mini-game for the harvest. Heck, have the mini game take three times as long as a simple click and move on. This would kill all form of bots, take as much time gathering as a 3=1 ratio (since each node takes 3 times longer to harvest), and keep people from drooling on themselves while doing nothing other than holding “W” and right-clicking a node.

    4)      I would (personally) cap professions at two per character (or maybe even less)… EQ2 did this and I don’t remember hating it. FF14 has limitless classes per character and I honestly don’t even need anyone else for anything, rendering player trade and market boards useless, since my craft-and-gather-everything toon can do it all. Good-bye player-based economy.

    4.1)Ok, so time for my VERY unpopular opinion:

    *Insert “Unpopular Opinion Puffin” here*

    Honestly, I would even like to see that an entire account can’t have all tradeskills, not even by half. Make people choose which kind of one or two tradeskills they want to have, and thus be forced to sacrifice the others.  Have 3-5 adventure-class character slots, and 1-2 crafting/gathering character slots (with something like FF14’s stealth system so mobs aren’t killing everyone left and right…). This would mean players would actually have to rely on each other, and if there is a lack of a certain profession, then a simple free-market economy would see that profession paid well by the players and thus be filled by extrinsically-motivated players who want the coin. Imagine actually having miners paid well because crafting jobs are so much more popular, and since not everyone can be a crafter AND miner, miners would be few and far between. Not only would demand for their services sky-rocket, but with a one gatherer per “insert popular number here” crafter ratio (1:20?), this could also be another method to help combat common item market saturation.

    Heck, being a miner for a while could even then help new players get money for starter gear. I remember playing EQ1 and struggling my first few days trying to save enough 1 copper drops for spells because I didn’t have any other means of getting money yet.

    “What do you mean I can’t buy 100 iron ore for 1 gold?”

    “There is no iron ore! No one wants to be a miner!”

    “Dude, I’ll give you 1,000 gold for some iron ore, so I can keep playing a crafter.”

    *INSERT FREE-MARKET EXTRENSIC MOTIVATION!*

    Word of caution though, don’t make classes permanent. Just allow a character to forget their class and start a new one. If I get tired of being a level 50 miner, I would much rather “forsake” mining and start my new journey as a level 1 blacksmith then have to delete my character and re-roll a new one that looks exactly the same. I never understood why classes had to be permanent.

    Post #4 by Nephele:

    1)      “There are a few reasons for this approach but one of the big ones is so that we can better control scarcity on the "fancier" versions of recipes.”

    1. Personally, I am against artificial limitations or artificial holds on things. I appreciate that you want players to retain that special feeling of uniqueness, and thank you for that, but I would love to see just more customizing options in games where we can make the sword have a ½ or ¾ serrated blade, or have the axe with a hammer balance, pick balance, or another axe-head balance. This would allow players to still feel that their personalized options are awesome, without having to raid dungeons 100 times a day waiting for that .05% cast drop rate, coupled with the “draw lots” against 50 other players.

    2)      “Also rewarding crafters for leaving the safety of cities and getting out into the world.”

    1. What’s wrong with crafters wanting to stay in the safety of the cities? I can understand giving incentives, otherwise there is no reason to leave -- but at the same time I feel like rewarding crafters who leave punishes those who just want to stay in and don’t want to go adventuring. Would there also be incentive for NOT leaving the city? I’m a big fan of companies providing possibility and allowing players to have fun in the manner that they choose. Maybe I misread or misunderstood this line, but it feels like you’re saying “well, you don’t HAVE to leave the city, but you’ll be punished if you don’t go.”

    3)      “I don't know why you think we haven't thought of all of these things?  After all, we *do* read your forum posts (as well as many others!) :)”

    1. Love that you read the posts! Thank you so much! :-) I cannot overstate my appreciation that you actually listen to player feedback.

    I do believe, however, that a concept that is oft repeated by multiple people is taken more seriously than one that is said once and never repeated, so even if something was already said, if I like the concept, I will still repeat it.

    For example: Dev Board Question: “Should we spend $10K animating and implementing another flippy monk attack animation, or pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows?”

    Answer A: “I think someone mentioned unicorns on one of the forums like 12 years ago…”

    -vs-

    Answer B: “DUDE! People will NOT SHUT UP about pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows!”

     

    4)      “For now, let me say this.  No system can ever be perfect.”

    1. Understandable, thank you for your efforts.

    5)      “All that dust does in the current implementation is add an attribute definition to a refined resource.  So instead of an iron bar or a coldark steel bar you get an iron bar of might or a coldark steel bar of vitality.  Dust is useful (because attribute bonuses are good) but it does *nothing* for other stats like, for example, the damage of the weapon you're crafting or the AC of a piece of armor.”

    1. I like this concept, helps combat making rare-drops the “new normal”, but I would also still have after-market variations. Having an item be finalized once forged, forever kills potential crafting classes like “tinkerer” or “enchanter”.

    In conclusion, PINK FLUFFY UNICORNS DANCING ON RAINBOWS! (Make sense now? Ref Post #4 by Nephele: bullet 3 response.)

     

    My addition to the forum: Pretty please make complex crafting minigames and amazing crafting animations like EQ2 and FF14! PLEASE don’t go the way of WoW or Asheron’s Call and just have a “push this button and watch the bar in the middle of your screen fill up.” (Have you already addressed this like 100 times? Maybe, but remember: PINK FLUFFY UNICRONS DANCING ON RAINBOWS!)

     

    Thank you very much for your time!

    v/r

    -Smurgle

     

    P.S. Also, can we have player-created content be the best at end-game? If we need the legendary ore for making the best items come from a raid drop, then fine, but I don’t like the idea that a thing (dungeon) is more important than a player. Additionally, if it was raid-dropped legendary ore, then it could at least be used to forge a variety of things instead of the entire raid ending up being for a specific costume slot for a specific class… “Oh look! All 50 of us spent two hours clearing this raid for an account-bound God-Tier cook’s toque!”

    Thanks again!

    • 1820 posts
    January 7, 2021 1:39 PM PST

    Smurgle said:

    My addition to the forum: Pretty please make complex crafting minigames and amazing crafting animations like EQ2 and FF14! PLEASE don’t go the way of WoW or Asheron’s Call and just have a “push this button and watch the bar in the middle of your screen fill up.” (Have you already addressed this like 100 times? Maybe, but remember: PINK FLUFFY UNICRONS DANCING ON RAINBOWS!)

    Love the enthusiasm!  While I cannot promise pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows, I understand your passion for this topic! ;)

    I can promise you that Pantheon's crafting will not be a simplistic click-to-craft implementation when it's done and ready.  There will be a gameplay loop associated with the actual act of crafting something.  We'll be talking about that more in the future, probably once we have a full proof-of-concept that we can show off in a dev stream.

    Smurgle said:

    P.S. Also, can we have player-created content be the best at end-game? If we need the legendary ore for making the best items come from a raid drop, then fine, but I don’t like the idea that a thing (dungeon) is more important than a player. Additionally, if it was raid-dropped legendary ore, then it could at least be used to forge a variety of things instead of the entire raid ending up being for a specific costume slot for a specific class… “Oh look! All 50 of us spent two hours clearing this raid for an account-bound God-Tier cook’s toque!”

    Thanks again!

    I'll just say that it's pretty amazing the number of useful things that can potentially be made out of dragon hide or dragon bone :)  No worries on this one, there will be plenty of room for variety, even at raid levels.

    • 1786 posts
    January 7, 2021 3:32 PM PST

    Smurgle said: make complex crafting minigames

    Is that really what people want?  I strongly disagree with that.

    • 693 posts
    January 7, 2021 3:34 PM PST

    I tend to disagree with that as well.  But I'm also not sure what it even means.  I want my mind to work, but I don't want crafting to feel like adventuring.  I would rather the clicking, timing, placement of things, etc, not be a big thing in crafting.  

    • 693 posts
    January 7, 2021 3:34 PM PST

    What is a minigame anyway?  Guess I shouldn't disagree till I know what it means.

    • 1786 posts
    January 7, 2021 3:46 PM PST

    The first minigame I always think of is gems lol...not that this is that.  With crafting it is usually bars like you are playing tiger woods golf or something silly that is about timing...or a mini puzzle type of game you have to complete pieces of to increase successes ala Vanguard etc.

    It's ok to have the difficult part about crafting be the gathering of unique items and the skill required to succeed.  Let the combines be the combines. 

    We can still have multiple outcomes from a combine without having crafting skills be a click fest to level (which is what minigames usually end up being).


    This post was edited by philo at January 7, 2021 3:59 PM PST
    • 693 posts
    January 7, 2021 4:03 PM PST

    Ah ok, that's what I was imagining mini-games are.  Yeah, I don't want them for crafing, unless there is a way to make them feel like it's actually part of the crafting process...and even then I'd have to try it out to see if it feels ok.  But yeah, in general I don't want my success/fail rate based on how well I can time a click.  

    • 15 posts
    January 7, 2021 4:13 PM PST

    Nephele said:

    Love the enthusiasm!  While I cannot promise pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows, I understand your passion for this topic! ;)

     

    Everyone, just for the record, at 03:39 PM CST, I got Nephele to say "pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows". 

    Hidden achievement unlocked!

     

    philo said:

    Is that really what people want?  I strongly disagree with that.

     

    Hello Philo! Thanks for replying. :-)

    And though we disagree, I value your opinion.

    While I agree that not everyone wants every aspect of everything, this is why I threw my vote in with the complex crafting side. If you want your vote to be cast with the WoW style "click and watch" then you are free to do so. What I want uiltimately is to feel like I earned something and not simply have someone say to me, "You're a wizard, Harry!" just for walking into the wizard's guild. That's all.

    From the overall feeling I've acquired from Pantheon and our inability to waltz through dungeons solo-me-o, I don't think Pantheon should have "waltz-through" crafting systems either. If you would rather just click "craft" and watch your toon do everything for you, that's your prerogative.

     

    Ranarius said:

    What is a minigame anyway? Guess I shouldn't disagree till I know what it means.

    Hello Ranarius! Thanks for replying. :-)

    So, a minigame is a small not-really-related game within the game. Did you ever see Wreck it Ralph? Remember when Ralph helped Vanellope build her racing car, and after she said "Oh! This is a good one!" and pressed the car selection button, the curtain rose and they had to add the ingredients via the balancing beam, pump the bellows to bake it, and shoot the targets to add wheels and decorations? That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. This is prevelant in Everquest 2, Final Fantasy 14, and I'm told Vanguard (though I haven't had the pleasure of playing that game). 

    If we were to go World of Warcraft, or Asheron's Call style, (ergo, lack of a minigame) then we would just push the button that says "craft", watch the progress bar fill up on its own, and then the item would be crafted and just show up ready to go. This would be akin to Vanellope saying "Oh! This is a good one!", pushing the car selection button, then hearing a *ding* and the car be presented already assembled when the curtain rose. "You're a baker, Vanellope!"

    Mini games regarding crafting generally tend towards balancing progression of an item (0-100%) vs durability (100-0%). Each time a skill is used, progression goes up and durability goes down. The goal is to get progression to 100% before durability reaches 0%. This is easy until we add the element of quality. Now the game is about getting quality as high as possible while making sure that progression still reaches 100% before durability reaches 0%.

    This is a nice short intro video to mini-game crafting of FF14 if you have a free 10 minutes, it will give at least an idea of what mini-game crafting entails (though each game is slightly different, the overall concept is relatively the same): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=durA_cTMLBw

    Overall, what I basically want is to feel like I'm making the sword, and that each sword is in individual creation. Not just "craft 100 swords" and have a stack/box of 100 swords suddenly appear in my inventory which is now, to me, nothing more than a number draped over an icon.

    • 15 posts
    January 7, 2021 4:22 PM PST

    Ranarius said:

    ...unless there is a way to make them feel like it's actually part of the crafting process...

    Actually, the mini-games are all about the crafting process and making the creation of the item actually feel like you are creating the item. FF14 as the previous example isn't about timing at all. It's about deciding the progression of the creation and balancing the risk/reward of adding something and risk ruining the end result, or making it better than it otherwise would have. Like you said, you'll have to try it out.

    • 1786 posts
    January 7, 2021 4:34 PM PST

    You definitely are puting a positive spin on a handful of extra clicks.  Crafting in and of itself is a minigame. 

    What I want uiltimately is to feel like I earned something and not simply have someone say to me, "You're a wizard, Harry!" just for walking into the wizard's guild. That's all.

    What I read is you want to make combines tedious.

    What game have you played where crafting was difficult and made you " feel like I earned something"?

    I've never played a game where crafting itself was difficult.  Sure its difficult to acquire some ingredients and it can be slow to raise your skill and a bit RNG dependent but. 

    I've never played a crafting system where someone could actually be a bad player and not be able to succeed in crafting because they weren't a skilled enough player.  If that was a thing maybe I would feel like I earned something?  It's just never actually challenging...and I'm unsure how people would respond if it was made that way?

    It's definitely interesting to consider. 


    This post was edited by philo at January 7, 2021 4:35 PM PST
    • 1786 posts
    January 7, 2021 4:42 PM PST

    That video isn't doing minigames any favors...yikes.  It reminds me of vanguard.  That's the exact kind of system I hope we don't get. Tedious clicking. No actual challenge.  That doesn't look fun to me. 


    This post was edited by philo at January 7, 2021 4:43 PM PST
    • 15 posts
    January 7, 2021 5:01 PM PST

    philo said:

    That video isn't doing minigames any favors...yikes.  It reminds me of vanguard.  That's the exact kind of system I hope we don't get. Tedious clicking. No actual challenge.  That doesn't look fun to me. 

     

    Again, to each their own. And no, they are not difficult regarding skill of the player. Maybe "difficult" was the wrong word to use with you, maybe I should have said "more involved"? "More complex"? I don't know.

    Both EQ2 and FF14 made me feel like each item I crafted was its own individual item. Every time I failed to craft an item it was becuase I was unable to overcome the various RNG obstacles that presented themselves. The items I successfully crafted made me either feel good for what I made, or made me feel like I could do better next time. Very much like when I get defeated by a MOB, it's because I didn't use my combat skills properly to adjust to the battle situation changing on me.

    Did you watch Sword Art Online? When Asuna made the Ragout Rabbit dinner, she played a mini game. She diced the rabbit meat, cut up the vegitables, set the temp on the oven, timed the duration of the cooking. She even said something to the effect that it was much easier than in real life, because real life involved a lot more steps, but at least she was going through the motions. She didn't just have the ingredients in her inventory, click a button on her GUI, and then suddenly have dinner ready to serve.

    Honestly though, I don't see how this is much different than having skill options with adventuring. Would you also like to have a combat system where it's just a button that says "fight", where you click the MOB, click "fight" and watch your character battle? To me that sounds boring, much like WoW's crafting system.

    Again though, difference of opinions.

    v/r

    -Smurgle

    • 1786 posts
    January 7, 2021 5:05 PM PST

    I wonder what a crafting system would look like that would require a high level of personal skill from the player in order to make a combine?  Maybe it wouldn't even be a "combine"? It would have to be a different system without "combines" that would require a high level of player skill to craft something.  Combines in and of themselves aren't difficult even if you have to click the mouse and make some choices along the way.

     


    This post was edited by philo at January 7, 2021 5:17 PM PST
    • 15 posts
    January 7, 2021 5:18 PM PST

    You know what? Words are difficult. How about we have two live examples, then everyone can play for 5 min each and then have an educated (relatively) opinion.

     

    1) Being a blacksmith with minigames (this is kind of exactly what I would like to see as a mini-game for every sword I create): 

    https://armorgames.com/play/14015/jacksmith

    (For those who don't like clicking links, Google -> "Armor Games Jacksmith" -> First return "Jacksmith - Play on Armor Games")

     

     

    2) Being a blacksmith without minigames (WoW style click button and you're done):

    https://gameforge.com/en-US/littlegames/blacksmith-clicker/ href="https://gameforge.com/en-US/littlegames/blacksmith-clicker/">

    (For those who don't like clicking links, Google -> "blacksmith clicker" -> First return "Blacksmith Clicker: Play Blacksmith Clicker for free")

     

    Personally, Option 1) makes me feel like I'm making a sword (which I like), while Option 2) makes me feel like I'm adding bulk numbers to an icon, and no feeling of actually making swords exists.

    I hope this clarifies things! :-)

    • 1786 posts
    January 7, 2021 5:21 PM PST

    The difference in difficulty is negligent.  At that point you may as well make it less tedious.  It isn't actually difficult.

    • 15 posts
    January 7, 2021 5:23 PM PST

    philo said:

    I wonder what a crafting system would look like that would require a high level of personal skill from the player in order to make a combine?  Maybe it wouldn't even be a "combine"? It would have to be a different system without "combines" that would require a high level of player skill to craft something.  Combines in and of themselves aren't difficult even if you have to click the mouse and make some choices along the way.

     

     

    This is an interesting concept which could be a lot of fun. I feel like it would have to be based server side though, because this sounds like something that could be hurt by bad ping times. (Not arguing anything here, just brainstorming ideas for how to make it work.)

    • 15 posts
    January 7, 2021 5:25 PM PST

    philo said:

    The difference in difficulty is negligent.  At that point you may as well make it less tedious.  It isn't actually difficult.

     

    Very true about the "difficulty" aspect. Again though, its more about role-playing. The difference between warrior and mage is negligable when you compare the act of hitting hotkey 1 to swing a sword (or firing a bow) or hitting hotkey 1 to cast a fireball... They are in that aspect completely the same, but give you different roleplay "feelings". I would like a crafting system that makes me feel like I'm actually making something.

    • 77 posts
    January 8, 2021 6:48 AM PST

    Vanguard was mentioned as an example of both, good and bad crafting. I pretty much liked it, but i have never been much of a crafter ... only in Vanguard. 

    Maybe just get away from the term "mini game" and use "creation process" or something like that. Mini game seems to be considered as different things by different people. What we are looking for is a fun process to create items, to feel like you are creating items, while still sitting at your desk at home, not touching a single crafting tool (the mouse does not count)

    As Smurgle said: Even if there where RNG involved, i always felt like i have achieved something, when an item with good quality was created. Crafting things was tedious sometimes, due to the fact, that you had to do some stuff again and again ... But thats what crafting is in real live as well. 

    @Smurgle: I really like your style of discussion, especially getting away from words and bringing examples in a form of a game or video. That helps alot, especially since english is sometimes hard to understand. 

     

    @philo: I see your point that Vanguard crafting had some downsides, but for me it was the best implementation of crafting in the games where i did crafting (not too many, EQ, vanguard, PoE (i hate PoE crafting)). Is there an example of a creation process that you liked? Id love to see that. 

     

    • 7 posts
    January 8, 2021 11:28 AM PST

    I don't mind mini games for final used products, especially if the item can be improved by doing well. But having to do a mini game to smelt ore or turn bars in sub components would suck. I do hope there will be a way to skip the mini game for generic products used just for skilling, like task items from npcs. Items where a lot are needed and ql doesn't matter much.

    • 15 posts
    January 8, 2021 3:04 PM PST

    Silvermink said:

    I don't mind mini games for final used products, especially if the item can be improved by doing well. But having to do a mini game to smelt ore or turn bars in sub components would suck. I do hope there will be a way to skip the mini game for generic products used just for skilling, like task items from npcs. Items where a lot are needed and ql doesn't matter much.

     

    I really want to keep engaging on your guys' comments, but I know I've said a lot already and I don't want to high-jack the thread. lol

     

    • 54 posts
    January 23, 2021 10:29 AM PST

    Crafting!  I've always liked trying it out in MMOs I've done.

    Some ideas if you need any on what might make crafting fun.

     

    1.  Working together!  I loved how EQ2 did WORTS (washes, oils, resins, t-something) back in the day.  For those that don't know, you would visit one crafter who, say, made an Oil you needed for a recipe you had.  Crafting was not "do it all yourself" back in the day.

    2.  Items for those oopsies!  If you played Vanguard, you will remember how you had items to help when mistakes happened.  Cut yourself while crafting?  Use a bandage kind of thing.

    3.  One button?  Pass!  I'm all for engaging myself when making something, not a 'one button' and it's done system.

    • 22 posts
    January 29, 2021 6:25 AM PST

    I honestly love everything you guys are doing for the crafting system. As someone who doesn't really mess with crafting (unless its a necessity for every player, which I hope it won't be in Pantheon) this might actually make me want to tinker around with it for once! Great job and can't wait to see the final iteration

    • 175 posts
    January 29, 2021 7:17 AM PST

    I hope there is a way to negatively effect the outcome based on a poorly timed mouse click, a miscalculated quantity of an ingredient, a miss aligned part, etc. Basically I don't want to see item quality/stats being strictly determined by a RNG behind the scenes type of thing. I want it to also be determined by something the player may have screwed up on their end.

    This video shows a couple of examples of where something like this does come into play, but I hope VR takes it further.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTE9ebiHjcY


    This post was edited by Nekentros at January 29, 2021 7:24 AM PST