What are the elements that make your crafting session fun? No matter how wel designed and thought out things are, if it isn't fun it will lay dead in the water.
Please give your thoughts on what elements you find fun during your crafting session, primarily based on passed experiences in other games (doesn't have to be the mmo-genre). (Note: I'm not talking about a wishlist of things crafting should include.) Your definition of fun could (amongst any other thing) include: makes me smile or experiencing a sense of contentment, etc.
Is it fun because.....;
It's short. It's stress free, risk free or a higher succesrating compared to the rest of the game?
There is no time pressure? You can see the actual construction progressing? The ambient music?
Visual effects of your actions during crafting? The sounds and motions the character makes as you craft?
It's not a complex but actually pretty straightforward process from start to finish? The visual appearance of the end product? The style of characterprogression during or after the session?
Things are seemingly very tactile; you actually move the materials and turn the up the fire/crush the metals under your hammer? (push on the tube of ketchup to fill that dry sandwich)
In most games the crafting is interesting, but not fun. It's really just a means to an end. EQ1 crafting, while decently expansive for the era, was boring due to the click-fest. EQ2's ridiculous crafting mini-game wasn't fun as it only served to slow down the crafting process and introduce additional points of failure to reduce the chance you can create the best item possible. EVE's crafting was very expansive, but was just a 'set it and come back in X days/weeks when it's done'.
So far, the only game where crafting is actually fun is Minecraft, specifically modded minecraft (though the base version is still very very good.) Some things you can make instantly, other things take some unit of time per unit created, some things can be automated through complex setups of machines and pipes while other things and some things can be made by hand. The positional crafting is a cool idea where not only are the materials important, but where they are placed in the crafting bench matters. Interesting..and fun.
Fun, to me, is tangible personal progress. That's value for my entertainment dollar.
That can mean achieving some goals, or completing tasks set by me or the game.
What makes any non-combat system fun, to me, is when material properties apply to all facets, features, or details of an action, item, or task.
That means, simply, that every material in the game world has a purpose, a reason, and can be utilized in some form or fashion.
The properties of those materials, regardless of what they are, can be applied to any, many, some, or all game loops, in a huge variety of ways.
When I see that breadth of context, I know it's going to be fun for me.
A simple example.
Let's say there are 50 different types of wood in the game world. ( Alder, Apple, Ash, Aspen, Balsa, Bamboo, Basswood, Beech, Birch, Blue, Box, Butternut, Cedar, Cherry, Chestnut, Cottonwood, Cypress, Dogwood, Douglas, Ebony, Elm, Gaboon, Greenheart, Gum, Hackberry, Hemlock, Hickory, Holly, Iroko, Juniper, Keruing, Larch, Lignum, Lime, Madrone, Magnolia, Mahogany, Maple, Meranti, Myrtle, Oak, Obeche, Oregon, Parana, Pear, Pecan, Persimmon, Pine, Plane, Plum, Poplar, Ramin, Redwood, Rosewood, Sapele, Satinwood, Spruce, Sycamore, Tanguile, Teak, Utile, Walnut, Willow, Yew, Zebrawood, more )
That wood can be made into handles, totems, inlay, engraved, carved, moisture-bent, ground into powder, burned into ash, has roots, leaves, bark, seeds, fruit/nuts, and sap.
Every single loop can benefit in some way from the application of the properties of those 50 different types of wood, via those different forms, methods or products from it.
That's when you (I) know that it's a virtual world, not just 'a game'.
Then you expand it to include all stone, rock, ore, plants, fibers, flora, fauna, metals, gems, essences, magical sources, and more. And each of them all has properties that can be applied to all loops. :D
As others have said with different wording, how fun crafting is directly relates to the rewards. Crafting in and of itself with combines or minigames is always pretty bland. It simply doesn't compare to battling a big monster as far as being "fun". While "fun" is subjective, if crafting was really fun you would have games that were 100% pure crafting and the adventuring part wouldn't be necessary.
We know by this point in development that pantheon's crafting won't be groundbreaking. All we can hope for is a system that isn't overly tedious or monotonous that gives good rewards for what you put into it.
Step 1. Make or build things that are relavent and can be used for every Craft so that they all have something to offer.
Step 2. Make those things useable / consumable so that there is always a reason to do said crafting, creating a supply and demand market for them
Step 3. Have fun with mixing different crafed items for there effects in different aspects and areas of the game world, and in game content.
As long as each craft has a healthy group of consumables they can craft, allowing them to stay relevent and needed, then crafting is fun. If there is not then natural over accumulation and depreatiation of items takes over and crafting is not fun at all.
You craft to make things others or yourself can use to enhance gamepley and make adventuring more fun. So as long as there is reason for something to be, there will be life in it. "If you build it, they will come!" not "If you build it, so what there are 10,000 of the same item in the game so it's trash"
Sorry, not sorry :P
Fun for me in crafting is when the animations are suited to the actual thing my character is doing. If I'm stitching a robe, it's fun to see my character acting that out.
I like how the impact is directly visible when I press a button or move an object as part of the crafting process. It's not necessary but it's entertaining.
Ambient sounds that support the mood you're trying to create are nice aswel.
Sometime while crafting/building something you can see different stages of that build/product. That too is entertaining and helps keep my attention to the game. It's less monotone.
When the abilities or interactables help to pull you into the moment. For example, abilities that explain what you're actually doing or help you 'tell the story' of how you craft.
As with adventuring, it's fun to hear your character voice. When you hit a mob or jump you hear your character. Well, I find it fun when my character is grunting, hissing, sighing, etc sounds when they are handling a heated iron bar, stretching to reach a bottle up a cabinet, working the billows.
The anxious hope of getting something unexpected or succeeding while completion is not garanteed. If I know well in advance that my craft is going to be completed, it's less fun. So leave me sitting on the edge of my seat untill the end and I'll find it more entertaining.
The debt and variety Vjek has mentioned are for me also elements that make that craft fun and unique.
There were a few experiences in crafting that I found to be downright fun in previous games.
1st and most common. On any number of occasions, I heard a friend or guildie mention something he wanted or needed and was able to respond immediately "hey, I can make that for you". The opportunity to log in my crafter and 'effortlessly' provide something for a friend right then & there when they asked for it was easily as satisfying to me as it was to the person I made it for.
2nd. On days when I didn't want to go adventuring and the game world was busy, I would sometimes go to a particularly 'scenic' crafting station with a pack full of mats. There I would adjust my screen view to see all the players coming and going around me with the scenery in the background. I would put my chat window up in a corner so I could join any interesting conversations around me or in guild chat, maybe put some appropriate music on my stereo, and spend an hour or two as a VERY immersed Artisan in the game world pursuing my Craft.
In my first game (AC), crafters didn't create armor, weapons or jewelry. They only modified dropped items, and pretty much every dropped item - except Rare/Quest rewards - was modifiable. So one of the most fun parts of crafting was when I would loot an item that wasn't special as-is, but turned out to be a possibility for crafting into something really good for me or friends. While looting in the field doesn't tend to be seen as part of crafting, in that game it certainly was. My crafting skills gave the majority of loot items I ID'ed the potential for being useful and valuable despite having no connection to my adventuring class. And finding a really sweet item would keep me excited to work on it for however many hours or days it would take to get the necessary supplies together to attempt the modification. Fun times for sure.
vjek said:That means, simply, that every material in the game world has a purpose, a reason, and can be utilized in some form or fashion.
The properties of those materials, regardless of what they are, can be applied to any, many, some, or all game loops, in a huge variety of ways.When I see that breadth of context, I know it's going to be fun for me.
That was exactly the situation in AC, and was very enjoyable. Every dropped item was made of some base element, and every base element would impart an effect to a particular stat or quality. And the base element could be used for that effect on any item that actually had that stat on it. (as in you couldn't add a damage bonus element to armor or jewelry since they weren't weapons)
For the fun in crafting is being needed to craft from entry level items to top tier items, which is why I'm so against self sufficiency. The mechanics in the crafting process while important, are less important to me than being needed as a crafter from the moment I accept the duty as a tradesmen.
HemlockReaper said: ... which is why I'm so against self sufficiency. ...
While our guild doesn't care about self sufficiency, because we will have everything we need in as many characters, alts, and accounts as necessary to be self sufficient as a guild, I do have a sincere question, HemlockReaper..
How would you remove the possibility or address the entirely negative experience of a crafter being unable to complete an item because they can't afford the 'forced' or 'required' interdependency-only components, subcomponents, or items that are currently available?
This was the #1, in fact, the only reason I had one of everything (crafting/harvesting related) in EQ1 and EQ2. It would cost me, for example, less to level up Pottery from nothing to halfway-to-max, max, or whatever skill level I needed than it cost for one. single. component. purchased from another player. It was just.. insane.
The ability for guilds and 'serious' or 'hardcore' players to trivially bypass the self sufficiency utterly destroyed any reasonable market, eventually forcing everyone I ever knew to follow the same path.
It's why I am now a huge proponent of solo and concurrent group crafting paths rather than attempting forced interdependency by unique profession components.
But I am genuinely curious what others have imagined, theorycrafted, or logically worked out as solutions on this topic.
vjek said:HemlockReaper said: ... which is why I'm so against self sufficiency. ...While our guild doesn't care about self sufficiency, because we will have everything we need in as many characters, alts, and accounts as necessary to be self sufficient as a guild, I do have a sincere question, HemlockReaper..
How would you remove the possibility or address the entirely negative experience of a crafter being unable to complete an item because they can't afford the 'forced' or 'required' interdependency-only components, subcomponents, or items that are currently available?
This was the #1, in fact, the only reason I had one of everything (crafting/harvesting related) in EQ1 and EQ2. It would cost me, for example, less to level up Pottery from nothing to halfway-to-max, max, or whatever skill level I needed than it cost for one. single. component. purchased from another player. It was just.. insane.
The ability for guilds and 'serious' or 'hardcore' players to trivially bypass the self sufficiency utterly destroyed any reasonable market, eventually forcing everyone I ever knew to follow the same path.It's why I am now a huge proponent of solo and concurrent group crafting paths rather than attempting forced interdependency by unique profession components.
But I am genuinely curious what others have imagined, theorycrafted, or logically worked out as solutions on this topic.
I would say, as general rule that issue is caused by an overall imbalance in the game economy, maybe adventure progression is to fast, maybe gold drops are to low, possibly other stuff, this will vary from game to game, but the income into the economy starts with adventuring.
I'd not to not be limited to some remote basement or crafting hall to do my work, some people may like the peace and quiet but this usually puts me to sleep. Working in an open bazaar with a neighborhood feel and access to local chat could keep me entertained. I typically kill time in these areas while LFG or just winding down at the tail end of my playtime, it'd be nice to have something productive to do instead of just parkouring off random objects and structures like a moron.
Another part I find tedious is the inventory management game I end up playing, finding room for materials in the inventory i like to keep sorted, then putting everything away when im done. Sometimes the effort of this enough to drive me away. Material specific bags that had enough space to justify leaving them in your inventoy full time or perhaps even being able to be moved from a bank with items inside would help with this, even a bank-like crafting stash you could access items within while you you were crafting nearby.
I also like it when an item shows who it was crafted by, I take pride in my work and I think its cool that people can tell where it came from.
Mark81 said:.. Working in an open bazaar with a neighborhood feel and access to local chat could keep me entertained. I typically kill time in these areas while LFG or just winding down at the tail end of my playtime..
@Mark81 That's a good point actually. The energy around you while crafting can make it a more pleasant session. Nice one.
Crafting sessions need to be engaging for me. No 'one button and done' stuff. The thrill or seeing those percentiles go up (or down) and being ready to counter any bad happenings.
I like EQ crafting because, even though you put items in and pressed Create, you still could fail a combine when over the 'trivial' for it. Ah .. nothing like getting those 10 items to make a pie and press Create ... "watches it fail and curses XD*