Forums » Crafting and Gathering

A quick word about Crafting in Pantheon

    • 612 posts
    February 2, 2021 10:17 PM PST

    Darchias said: "It's a part of the social contract man ... this is one argument I fall on the side of immersion for"

    Of course you are free to have your opinion on the matter.

    I do remember though back in EQ when I was a guide, how many /petitions I saw on a regular basis of people claiming to be scammed by other players. I'm pretty sure VR doesn't want to constantly be dealing with these kinds of petitions when players screw each other over. If a simple feature added in from the start can prevent a lot of the scamming, I'd rather they use it.

    • 768 posts
    February 3, 2021 12:17 PM PST

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    Sarim said: "Instead of being able to see the other player's skill, maybe there could be something like crafting "symbols" you get from your crafting trainer for mastering a new level of skill? ...

    So for this to actually work as a tool to prevent griefing, it would need to NOT be optional. It would need to be something that automatically gets assigned to you and you can't Hide, like an Icon that shows up on your gear page which other players can inspect that shows them your current 'skill range'. This would mean it's basically the same thing as showing you a number value, but instead just changes it into a Symbol. You then need to decide, how often do Crafters get a new symbol. Is there a different Icon for every +10 in a skill? Or is it every +25 in a skill?

    This would also complicate things for the person looking for a crafter, since instead of just knowing "I need a Crafter with at least 145 or higher skill" to have a 90% success rate; He instead needs to know ALL the Icons that are for higher than 145 skill, and in their correct order and know something like: "I need a Crafter who has a Wolfhead Icon, or a Pantherhead Icon, or a Bearhead Icon, or a Sharkhead Icon in order to be 90% sure of success. But if he has a Bunnyhead Icon that means 75-85% failure, or a Turtlehead Icon is 60-74% failure, or a Snakehead Icon is 40-60% failure; so those are not high enough skill. Oh and if he has an Eaglehead icon it means he might have the skill needed, since it's only 15-25% faliure but since it's a such swing for each icon I don't know if he's Low Eaglehead or High Eaglehead skill rating. So better not risk that one either."

    ....

    Oviously in the Real world, we can't view a person's skill in a Craft as a nice little number so we can judge if this person has the skill we need in order to get a good product. When a carpenter comes to build a Gazebo in your yard, there isn't a fancy badge that you can look at that says "I have a 90% chance of success at building your Gazebo without errors". For 'Immersion' as people like to say, players may want the game to not show you any number values. But in the Real world... people get scammed and cheated all the time. There is nothing you can do except call the Authorities and hope they can catch the guy and get you your money back.

    But in the Game world, there needs to be a little more security against this kind of thing. If there was rampant griefing in a game, people stop playing that game. So VR needs to take steps to make sure Griefing doesn't happen on a large scale. So sometimes you need to sacrifice a little bit of 'Immersion' and just give people the numbers.

    Apologies if this sounds blunt. It's not my intention. 

    You can work really well with Symbols. In fact I would encourage it, because it means that the costumer could be pulled into the depth of the game even more. Understanding the background of why certain Symbols are obtained/required could support your decision to reach out to that crafter and entrust them with your order. 

    Real life does provide you with stamps, certificates and other quality control systems. In real life, those duplicates can be illegally copied or reproduced. In the game however, you can't. So in a way it's kind of safer in game than it is in real life to use Symbols as a display of the quality and loyalty/attitude of that crafter throughout their carrier. Questlines that require ongoing interaction and commission work by the player with certain npc's or societies could allow that crafter to wear/display their symbol. 

    At any point in the game, a player can decide to just trust someone else based on a verbal statement. That will be so in any scenario. And if you happen to be that person, your naive placement of trust can be abused. However, ones those Symbols/quality control factions are known, it's very likely that you'll go towards those crafters the next time around. Hereby creating a path for true crafting professionals.

    Your animalhead Symbol example could be...refined into something more elaborate. Where The Depiction of a certain Symbol would inform the viewer about the progress made by the crafter. This could translate into: this crafter knowns this range X of recipes and has built range Y of product with range Z of quality. The results of this crafter having been 100%, 75% 50% 25% succesfull/satisfying. Going even further; their end products have been of 100% quality for recipes with a Difficulty Range of A.  

    This is all information that can be depicted by a single symbol and the background information could be obtained by investigating where that symbol came from or what that crafter had to do to obtain it. This doesn't have to be an out of game website, but it can stay within the game if you lay out your content efficiently, clear and in a way that players can easily and quickly understand it.

     

     


    This post was edited by Barin999 at February 3, 2021 12:19 PM PST
    • 5 posts
    February 4, 2021 6:45 PM PST

    Is crafting going to be like a mini game with complications or just having the materials and one click combine? I like having the interaction and that I can influence the success of the crafting process and/or the rarity of the crafted item. I did not like crafting in WOW (early days), just watching my character rubbing his hands together and WALAA theres the item. I liked EQII and Vanguard's processes for crafting. Vanguard's process was very challenging and at times made me want to pull my hair out, you had to pay attention the whole process, especially when adding dust, etc. You had grind, get better tools and gear to be succesful in crafting the highest grade item as possible. I am sure hoping we can dye crafted armor (and dropped armor) even after the item has been created. The Alchemist can make the dye and then the Armorsmith/Tailor/Leatherworker can apply the dye(s) to said armor. Just a thought as I know the more fucntions we ask for complicates the process with more variables. There are a bunch of great ideas in this thread, keep em coming!

    • 233 posts
    February 5, 2021 2:19 AM PST

    Can a player be double gathering or double crafting, or does it need to be 1 gathering and 1 crafting profession?

    • 43 posts
    February 5, 2021 4:45 AM PST

    Just watched the replay of the stream about crafting... I know this is in early stages but I must say that I am disappointed... Looks like "click and wait (time slider)" then completed or failed, type of crafting. WOW and other mmos has it like this, if I am not mistaken?

    I am hoping for something like Vanguard, Star Wars Galaxies, where you as a crafter really need to be on your toes while crafting.

     

    I am a crafter and to me, "click and wait", is not what I was expecting out of crafting in Pantheon, but, there is still time for change... :)


    This post was edited by StormCloud at February 5, 2021 5:59 AM PST
    • 612 posts
    February 5, 2021 5:04 AM PST

    @Grimseethe The answer seems to be Yes to double gathering, but no to double crafting.

    In yesterdays Dev stream, they told us that as of right now there are 6 Crafting Professions: Blacksmithing, Outfitting, Provisioning, Alchemy, Woodworking, and Jewlcrafting; and each of those will have sub-specializations.

    There will also be 5 types of Gathering: Mining, Woodcutting, Harvesting, Skinning, and Fishing; and there will also be some sort of extra specializations just not to the same level as the Crafting specializations.

    The plan (For now) is for players to be able to choose only 1 Crafting Profession (Source) with the opportunity to specialize within it.

    For Gathering, the plan (For now) is that All players will be able to do the Basics of all 5 Gathering professions, with the potential to specialize in 1 or 2 of these Gathering Professions that will give them the ability to Gather things that are above what is basic that everyone can gather.

    So there will never be an Everyone can do Everything situation in either Crafting nor Gathering.

    • 612 posts
    February 5, 2021 5:18 AM PST

    Stormcloud said: Looks like "click and wait (time slider)" then completed or failed, type of crafting."

    If you go re-read the origional post from Nephele for this very thread, you will notice that he mentions that they are focusing on building the system of how recipies and such will work before they build any gameplay experience around it. Once the fundamentals of what you can make and with what resources, then they will work on building the experience of how you go about performing the Craft.

    You may also want to check out This part of the stream where he answers a question about this and explains it a bit.

    • 43 posts
    February 5, 2021 5:32 AM PST

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    Stormcloud said: Looks like "click and wait (time slider)" then completed or failed, type of crafting."

    If you go re-read the origional post from Nephele for this very thread, you will notice that he mentions that they are focusing on building the system of how recipies and such will work before they build any gameplay experience around it. Once the fundamentals of what you can make and with what resources, then they will work on building the experience of how you go about performing the Craft.

    You may also want to check out This part of the stream where he answers a question about this and explains it a bit.

     

    I admit that I skimmed through the replay and I missed that part of what was being said. However, there is still a "darkness" covering the future of how the end result will be when it comes to the process of crafting, even after what he said. I just hope that it will fun and challenging as they say in the video. We'll wait and see...

     

    • 1921 posts
    February 5, 2021 6:56 AM PST

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:... So there will never be an Everyone can do Everything situation in either Crafting nor Gathering.

    That depends only on:
    What the limit of Alts is.  Then, I could, for example, have one of each, per server or on my account and simply switch to the alts to make what I wish.
    Or
    What the limit of characters, accunt wide is.  Then, it's just how much $$$ am I willing to pay to become completely independent and never worry about paying extortion rates for sub-components from other professions.  As an individual, or a guild.  I've personally seen this in every game that has attempted such mechanics in the past.  The days of bowing to cartels and monopolies are long gone.  We get enough of that IRL. :D

    It's the rather significant distinction between all-on-one character, versus all-on-one account (character or player).
    Forced interdependence doesn't work, provided players are willing to pay.  This is a legitimate method to gather more subscriptions, too.

    But it's nice to have this finally confirmed, after 7 years.

    • 633 posts
    February 5, 2021 6:58 AM PST

    StormCloud said:

    I admit that I skimmed through the replay and I missed that part of what was being said. However, there is still a "darkness" covering the future of how the end result will be when it comes to the process of crafting, even after what he said. I just hope that it will fun and challenging as they say in the video. We'll wait and see... 

    To be fair, there will always be a darkness covering the future of how crafting will work and look.  Even if they told us tomorro what their plans are, they will likely change by the end result.

    • 83 posts
    February 5, 2021 7:34 AM PST

    Nephele had said that while "mini-game isn't the right word", there will be gameplay associated with crafting that is more complex than what they showed in the stream. The exact form is TBD.

    • 454 posts
    February 5, 2021 1:58 PM PST

    After the 2/4/21 stream I'm really psyched for crafting!  Thanks Nephele!

    • 612 posts
    February 5, 2021 6:50 PM PST

    vjek said: "What the limit of Alts is.  Then, I could, for example, have one of each, per server or on my account and simply switch to the alts to make what I wish."

    Yes you can always skill up Alts in order to have access to all Crafts/Gathers. I was more referring to 1 Character being able to do everything. Obviously on the Player level, even if they put in limits there will always be a way for you to get around them, even if it means having 20 different accounts or something crazy like that.

    • 1921 posts
    February 5, 2021 8:30 PM PST

    Yeah, from my perspective, if you're unwilling to design and implement the mechanic so that the Player is forced into interdependence, you might as well permit the single character to do it all, because it's effectively the same thing.  As described, it's just a minor inconvenience for power gamers and rich folk, and only penalizes the casual, ignorant or poor folk.  Could be better, not ideal, imo.

    • 97 posts
    February 5, 2021 10:39 PM PST

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    vjek said: "What the limit of Alts is.  Then, I could, for example, have one of each, per server or on my account and simply switch to the alts to make what I wish."

    Yes you can always skill up Alts in order to have access to all Crafts/Gathers. I was more referring to 1 Character being able to do everything. Obviously on the Player level, even if they put in limits there will always be a way for you to get around them, even if it means having 20 different accounts or something crazy like that.

    MMORPG's wouldn't be the same without the possibility of alts ;)


    This post was edited by Jiub at February 5, 2021 10:39 PM PST
    • 5 posts
    May 21, 2021 4:37 AM PDT

    Enkur said:

    Is crafting going to be like a mini game with complications or just having the materials and one click combine? I like having the interaction and that I can influence the success of the crafting process and/or the rarity of the crafted item. I did not like crafting in WOW (early days), just watching my character rubbing his hands together and WALAA theres the item. I liked EQII and Vanguard's processes for crafting. Vanguard's process was very challenging and at times made me want to pull my hair out, you had to pay attention the whole process, especially when adding dust, etc. You had grind, get better tools and gear to be succesful in crafting the highest grade item as possible. 

     

    Generally I like this. I barely remember Vanguard in general, and only bad crafting memories.

    I quite like EQ2's system, where a bad combine can still get you some end result (even if it is just some of your mats or a poor quality tier item). The problem with EQ2 is the gathering side, not the crafting side. 500:1 ratios for harvesting rare drops is not fun, it's just tedium and a waste of time. I remember binning>1000 ores because I hadn't found my required [sparkly iron nugget] after 2 hours of mining.

    Having said that, the RNG in EQ2 crafting is horrifying. It's like... what's the point in levelling up? Just have a go at that masterful sword of total and utter destruction with a smithing skill of 5 because RNG is the controlling factor, not player skill, character skill, forge tools etc. If your RNG spits out critical fails on a green or grey combine, and critical succeeds on a yellow or red tier craft, then abilities (character or player) are meaningless.

    Also, after a string of critical succeeds, I'd sometimes have the green bar well outside the box. And no reward for that? Seemed a bit mean.

     

    vjek said:

    Yeah, from my perspective, if you're unwilling to design and implement the mechanic so that the Player is forced into interdependence, you might as well permit the single character to do it all, because it's effectively the same thing.  As described, it's just a minor inconvenience for power gamers and rich folk, and only penalizes the casual, ignorant or poor folk.  Could be better, not ideal, imo.

    Maybe some kind of AA system to allow more crafts to unlock?


    This post was edited by TheOzzie at May 21, 2021 4:42 AM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    May 21, 2021 12:43 PM PDT

    TheOzzie said: Maybe some kind of AA system to allow more crafts to unlock? 

    IMO:

    I 100% agree such a thing, or anything that accomplishes that same goal via whatever implementation details, would be awesome. 
    Unfortunately, there's been no indication in the past 7+ years this will be in Pantheon at launch, or ever.

    • 1860 posts
    May 21, 2021 12:50 PM PDT

    Ya, it's only alts if you want to participate in more than 1 tradeskill.

    I feel like this is something that could synergize well with progeny where you could increase 1 tradeskill per leveling 1-max. (similar to an alt but it would be on the same character).  But afawk for now it's simply alts.

    • 28 posts
    June 20, 2021 3:46 AM PDT

    Nephele said: 

    Great point about how item preview is an important client feature for many reasons.  I can't really say when or how it will come into the game but I also think it's become something of a standard in MMORPGs, and so we should offer the functionality at some point.

    Umh, really, that shouldn't be at "some" point. Naturally people want to see what they buy. There has to be some way, you can decide if you like what's offered. Perhaps not with a preview option, but with some kind of mannequins, the crafter can put up, to show, what he is able to make.

    Nephele said: 

     Of course there will be some randomness in the process to keep it interesting and to try and prevent "I win" macros

    So, minigames it is. *sigh* I posted my opinion about this somewhere else already. Being a crafter in real life, it's actually absurd to me, that I'm told about randomness in my crafting process. Have the devs to put up with randomness in the process of their programming? I do hope not. That would be very frustrating to them and for sure feel not the least rewarding. If I do work and crafting IS work, I don't want to be meddled with in the process by some "fun" games.

    Furthermore whatever process you build, you will NEVER prevent "I win" macros. Just take a look at FF14 for that. People will ALWAYS find a way around annoying processes. To prevent something, you would need to make it accessible enough that macros are a waste of time or that process so much fun, that no one wants to miss the steps (and as these steps will naturally be repetive, I don't think you can do that).

     

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    Ideally there should be a special UI maybe called 'Combine Trade' which is similar to Trading items, but this one is for Trading a Crafting. So both players can open this UI up when they are at the correct Crafting tool (ie Forge, Oven, Alchemy table, etc...) where the player with the resources can put in the items needed and add the coins he is offering for the combine and then when both parties agree the Crafter can then hit a 'Combine button' and then do whatever gameplay steps he needs to complete the combine. The purchaser then see's the result and automatically receives the item and the crafter automatically receives the purchase price agreed to.

    They could even have two seperate price options... 1 for a success and a second price for a Failure. So let's say the Crafter wants to charge 50g for a Success and 10g for Failure. Then if the combine works, I get the result and the Crafter gets 50g. If the combine fails, I get nothing, but the Crafter still gets 10g for the effort he made to attempt the combine for me.

    Since both players would need to select 'Agree' before the combine could be attempted, they could hash out prices and such and then both players get what they agreed to. This way there can be no cheating each other. (or at least it makes it extremely hard for people to cheat you).

    I absolutely vote for that! Goofy thought of a lot of problems, which can occur and offered a nice solution!

    I have some ideas too, I didn't read so far about:

    As far as I understood it, the game shall be all about exploring things, but crafting doesn’t sound in the slightest like that. Also there is a lot of talk about incenting crafters to leave their citys (even if there are some, who aren't in the slighted interested in being incented).

    But, what about incents for ADVENTURERS to do crafting? With the perception system of that game, I see great possibilities to make adventurers interested in crafting, because I could find something, where my perception not only tells me, that I could make something useful out of it, but also that I get the feeling, the necessary components are near. So this peaks my interest. I go and take a look around and if I find it, my perception tells me: This should work!

    Perhaps I now get the feeling I do need some special tools to work further with this and if I happen to come by them somewhat later, I again get the feeling: That should work for this and that stuff I found back there.

    Perhaps I even am able to combine it right away, because there are no special tools necessary and TADA: You got a skill up in "whatever". :)

    You know that i ran for hours around in Project Gorgon being perfectly happy to get skill ups in "Mapping" before I realized, that this skill does absolutely NOTHING?

    Its just great to get skill ups in USEFUL skills, while you do things which give you fun. It's not so much fun to have to harvest a gazillion ingredients, to be then able to sit somewhere and make a gazillion of combines, staring at the screen and hitting buttons while waiting for some random effects to counter. I have to admit, it sounds somewhat like what you do, while you are fighting mobs and perhaps that is where devs get that from, but honestly it isn't! Do you know how many times I nearly hit the keyboard sleeping while crafting in FF14? All I had to do, was react to some random effects and so I had to go SLOW, clicking a series of buttons too fast and I was like: Damn, there was that exceptionell that I could have used for something, but now it's wasted as I clicked the wrong button.

    But going slow just shuts your brain a bit more down, as there is NOTHING what keeps your awareness up. You are NOT in the middle of a dangerous dungeon, constantly in need to look around if some mob comes up behind you and while in fights, your reactions decide over death or live, in crafting there isn't so much to loose. So making an already boring process more complex isn't helping to make it more fun. What leads to people doing "I win" macros. For people like use these macros are more like: I can stand this awful process barely with that macro...

    I would love to have it otherwise, but I wouldn't know how for crafting while sitting cozy at your crafting station.

    So feel free to include minigames for people who really like them (sounds like there are some), but let us other the option to omit them right away. We will find a way to do that anyway, so why bother to prevent us from crafting the way we want to?

    I think even: Giving several options for crafting would make crafting in general more popular. Like in adventuring, you can solo, duo, play with a group or even raid. Just how you like it. You can look only to do one on one fights or do big pulls. You HAVE options. Why not having them in the way we are crafting? Sure some ways will take longer, then others, but then it's our choice and we are not pressed to do it exactly that way or leave it be.

     

    • 97 posts
    June 20, 2021 11:07 AM PDT

    I've been highly critical of forced additional-gameplay/ "mini-game" for essentially all the reasons you mentioned above.

    Crafting entails Harvesting, which entails ADVENTURING, which entails another chain of gameplay. The thrill that goes into locating random nodes, climbing to a high peak, fighting off hostiles, harvesting it with your specialized harvesting skill and equipment....shouldn't that be enough to keep us engaged? I don't see how interactive 'pay-walls' will enhance the crafting/harvesting experience. Rather it risks appearing shallow in comparison to the aformentioned adventuring which we know will be a natural consequence in Pantheon; I fear that forced additional gameplay will be seen more as a nuissance and will lead players into seeking ways to bypass it.

    In my experience, "mini-games" are a difficult feature to justify outside of puzzle/tavern game context.  It's OK if harvesting don't require the same amount of interaction that a dunegon would require & It's OK if crafting does not invoke dopamine rushes like a raid does.  Crafting/harvesting has its own charm and it's not doomed to being boring or non-engaging just because there isn't a 'mini-game' involved in the process.

    I would much rather see energy and resources being devoted towards ideas like GoofyWarrior's Trade Crafting interaction,  over forced additional-gameplay.


    This post was edited by Jiub at June 20, 2021 8:42 PM PDT
    • 6 posts
    July 2, 2021 9:09 AM PDT

    Will crafting skills/progression be capped by player level?

    • 1860 posts
    July 3, 2021 4:18 PM PDT

    Fyteme said:

    Will crafting skills/progression be capped by player level?



    I don't believe this has been answered specifically but regardless of the answer, we know you will need to be higher level to have access to everything crafting has to offer. 

    Crafting stations deep in dungeons and in places that players have to have enough acclimation gear equiped just to survive in the area while doing the combines have been shown.  Also we know raid mobs will drop some crafting components.

    Starting a lvl 1 alt and giving them crafting ingrediants will only get you so much.  The game is being designed in a way so that players will have to rely on others.  Not only in groups but in crafting as well.

    • 1785 posts
    July 5, 2021 5:05 PM PDT

    Fyteme said:

    Will crafting skills/progression be capped by player level?

    Only by the character's crafting or gathering level, which is independent of the character's adventuring level :)

    However, what Philo mentioned in his response to you is absolutely correct as well.

    • 1281 posts
    July 5, 2021 5:23 PM PDT

    Nephele said:

    Fyteme said:

    Will crafting skills/progression be capped by player level?

    Only by the character's crafting or gathering level, which is independent of the character's adventuring level :)

    However, what Philo mentioned in his response to you is absolutely correct as well.

    OK so you're not going to use some combination of level x skill = cap? Are skill caps going to be based on anything, or could you in theory become a max skill crafter at level 1?

    • 1785 posts
    July 5, 2021 8:25 PM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    OK so you're not going to use some combination of level x skill = cap? Are skill caps going to be based on anything, or could you in theory become a max skill crafter at level 1?

    Too soon to give details like that, but progression as a crafter will be multi-dimensional.  Skills are part of the equation but they will likely *not* function in the same way that EQ's skills did.

    Here's a list of a few of the concepts you'll need to pay attention to as a crafter for progression purposes.  Some aspects will work more vertically and others more horizontally.

    - Level

    - Skills

    - Crafting Mastery

    - Specialization

    - Reputation

    - Equipment and Tools

    - Available Techniques

    - Available Schematics

    - Available Resources

     

    I'll be able to share more about this later in Alpha, but if you think about each of these concepts and how they ultimately work together, that should give you an idea of what progressing as a crafter will actually be like.  It is definitely not going to simply be a matter of maxing skills or experience, at least, not if you actually want to make anything anyway :)