Kittik said:It was mentioned that the NPC's are playing like players.
Well, if that were really ture, the NPC's would be mezzing the mezzers and healers, ignoring the tanks and burning down the dps'ers.
So are NPC's really playing like players?
To a higher degree than other games but not to the point the game becomes impossibly hard. I imagine some mobs will be using mez on players but perhaps not with 100% efficiency or mezzing key targets. But we did see shaman got a new ability to break players out of mez so I'd imagine it is coming.
Good timing on bumping this thread since the last gameplay streams (Cohh/Rog/Halnir, NPC AI demo, and possibly the Monk reveal with Joppa pulling).
I don't want to be quick to judge, pre-alpha, etc disclaimers... I thought the TTK in the Cohh stream was encouraging, I mean stuff was not dropping instantly, they could wipe if you didn't pay attention. I give credit to the skill of the dev players for keeping the group alive with an inexperienced distracted rogue pulling haha. It was interesting when Joppa was concentrating on talking and died, another good sign that this will not be a speed run dungeon situation.
In fact that was the primary driver behind all of my concerns on the older videos was not so much the details but the Feel of things. I want fights to Feel like they matter. You know that moment when you just barely survived some adds, everyone was calling LOM, cleric was medding for another heal, chanter goes down, and when you win everyone is like OMG that was crazy, GJ all! I don't think any modern speed run games give that same feeling. I'll have to watch the Cohh/Halnir stream again and pay closer attention to mana. I don't recall much being said about low mana, but then again they would stop and talk. It appears battle meditation was not going during this stream, I hope they have dropped it.
ImmerseMe said: The game should encourage people to group, and it should do so by ensuring that mobs have a toolkit at least as equal to the player's, that the proper AI routines are in for them to utilize that toolkit, and that players will need to master their class to progress into higher levels. If someone is sufficiently skilled enough, and has mastered their class to the point that they're able to solo through certain areas, I don't see a problem with that."
I think this is really where we are at / headed toward with the NPC AI demo. In fact the devs have stated on stream multiple times that NPCs can technically use any skill that players can, it's all the same in the systems view, although a given Wiz mob may only be assigned a subset of the total Wiz kit perhaps. Yes it was not on show with Cohh very dramatically due to the nature of the stream but it was there, and the demo really showed the possibilities. This is a great way to increase difficulty in a fun tactically challenging way, but increasing HP/DPS is also required in order to keep up with player progression and to account for groups/raids. We are certainly closer to DnD than modern speed runs so far as we can see lol, so that's good.
Gyldervane said:I agree with this. Mob power, in my view, should remain static within the same encounter, and the difficulty of the fight should only be influenced by factors like number of group members, gear, and level. I do respect other opinions, but for me, adding artificial bonuses or penalties to encourage grouping starts taking a game in a very on-rails, theme-parky direction.
Hmm. But NPC being able to use the same abilities / tool kits as players, and target them effectively is surely not gimmicky or an artificial bonus? Dispositions and traits being somewhat random for an area/npc type also does not strike me as artificial. If you buy in to the thought that you are not killing the entire population of the Goblins, then next time you go to their cave they are different individuals, and some of them may have different strengths and weaknesses than the last time you went there. I suppose that logic breaks down on a Named lol. Still for the sake of replayability I'll take that trade of mob power not being static (if you consider traits/dispositions mob power and are not only referring to scaling mobs based on something? which doesn't work outside of instances very well).
Iksar said:Kittik said:It was mentioned that the NPC's are playing like players.
Well, if that were really ture, the NPC's would be mezzing the mezzers and healers, ignoring the tanks and burning down the dps'ers.
So are NPC's really playing like players?
To a higher degree than other games but not to the point the game becomes impossibly hard. I imagine some mobs will be using mez on players but perhaps not with 100% efficiency or mezzing key targets. But we did see shaman got a new ability to break players out of mez so I'd imagine it is coming.
Not sure why you're saying "If that were really true". This is exactly what they showed in the NPC AI stream right? That is what (some) mobs will do is target classes and HP/Mana levels, but as Iksar said it won't be a constant 100% lockdown of all healers all the time, that would not be fun. You will however run across NPC types/traits/dispositions/abilities that specifically target mezzers, healers and DPS, and that break mez off their allies etc.
GeneralReb said:
Gyldervane said:I agree with this. Mob power, in my view, should remain static within the same encounter, and the difficulty of the fight should only be influenced by factors like number of group members, gear, and level. I do respect other opinions, but for me, adding artificial bonuses or penalties to encourage grouping starts taking a game in a very on-rails, theme-parky direction.
Hmm. But NPC being able to use the same abilities / tool kits as players, and target them effectively is surely not gimmicky or an artificial bonus? Dispositions and traits being somewhat random for an area/npc type also does not strike me as artificial. If you buy in to the thought that you are not killing the entire population of the Goblins, then next time you go to their cave they are different individuals, and some of them may have different strengths and weaknesses than the last time you went there. I suppose that logic breaks down on a Named lol. Still for the sake of replayability I'll take that trade of mob power not being static (if you consider traits/dispositions mob power and are not only referring to scaling mobs based on something? which doesn't work outside of instances very well).
Oh, no, I'm not referring to traits and dispositions or intelligent mob AI. I'm totally on board with all of that. I just wouldn't want to see something like a solo player getting a penalty to hit on a mob just because they're not in a group. I don't feel that's the right way to incentivize grouping. I also wouldn't want to see a given mob magically become stronger the more players are grouped against it. (Unless, of course, that's the result of a specific mob trait.) That's all I mean by mob power being "static." Bring on the traits, dispos, and smart adaptive mobs! :)