Forums » Crafting and Gathering

The thickness of shields

    • 768 posts
    December 4, 2020 11:32 AM PST

    Looking at the most recent stream, caused me to think about how thick shields should or could be.

    How long and wide shields are is something we all know.

    What about how thick they are? I find that shields should have this dimension. To prevent shields from looking like they are made of coloured tin plates.

    Suggestion: A shieldmaster or woodworker is able to choose how thick the shield is. With three differences;

    1) Standard common stats apply.

    2) Thicker than standard. The stats of the shield is altered, it provides more blockchance but it weighs considerably more. (possibly even impacting the maneuverability?)

    3) Thinner than standard. Reduces the weight while equipped. Impacting dodging positively, but decreasing the effect of blocking.

    Building from this, you could allow these type of crafters to choose the other dimensions of the shield. Either by just scaling up and down the entire size of the final product with a scroll of your mouse. Or by allowing that crafter to make deliberate choices on how high and how wide the end product must be. (same amount of resources are consumed)

    These choices could have an impact on stats present on the end product. When it comes to appearance, they would just scale between different predetermined graphical measures.

    What are your thoughts on the thickness of shields? Is it worthwhile considering?

     


    This post was edited by Barin999 at December 4, 2020 11:42 AM PST
    • 1921 posts
    December 4, 2020 7:17 PM PST
    My OPINIONS on shields..

    Lots of different options and choices for the purpose, materials, shape and properties of shields.

    Buckler, parrying shield, round shield, square shield, kite shield, heater shield, tower shield. Each of those has vastly different shapes, sizes, and applications. In a world of magic, there's also nothing illogical with returning thrown shields.

    Some shields may only provide protection, some may be for deflection, some may be for absorption or mitigation. Some may provide a damage shield, some may be offensive (spiked, bladed), or mirrored/reflective.

    Base materials such as wood and metal and determine things like weight, size, defensive stats, and racial usage.

    The properties of various materials can be used in augmenting, customizing, or enchanted via inlays of stone, bone, wood, ductile metals, gems and more for additional effects.

    Finally, blades, spikes, runes, inscriptions, heraldry, finishes and similar decorations can all be used to add tertiary properties or amplifiers, if desired. Specific skill and/or spell modifiers could also be added.

    What will make end customers (imo) likely the most happy is being able to apply customization after the base item is created, so things like edging kits, spike/blade kits, inlay kits, and so on all being applicable by them, rather than only by the item creator, is often ideal.

    In some cases, having a small light wooden buckler customized with all metal inlays + edge + spike could have an entirely different use profile than a heavy metal tower shield with gem inlays, mirror finish, and a blessed icon heraldry. The first a Rogue may favor, while the latter, a Paladin.
    • 1315 posts
    December 5, 2020 9:28 AM PST

    All depends on how far down the physics rabbit hole you want to go.  Thickness specifically is not as important as the mass and surface area of the shield. The mass of the shield is a function of the thickness X surface area X density of the material.  The mass resist momentum and the surface area blocks lines of attack.  Thickness only comes into play on its own when you are trying to calculate punching through a shield.  (I may or may not have this all worked out on half a dozen sheets of paper). 

    Ironically it is the shield hitting you in a block and not the weapon.  Assuming a perfectly elastic collision (we can do a partial elastic inelastic but that is a very deep rabbit hole that combines composite materials mechanics and non-ridged body stress tensors and that is not math one does by hand.) 

    Energy that makes it through a block: 

    Unblocked Damage = 0.5*(MassShield)*(( 2*AttackStrength(N)*WeaponDelay(s))/(MassWeapon+MassShield)*)^2*MagicWeaponMultiplier*Sin(AngleOfStrike) - (DefendStrength(N) – (MassShield*Gravity*ShieldDistance))*ShieldDistance 

    AttackStrength is Impulse force due to the combination of Strength, Dex and magic in Newtons 

    WeaponDelay is the time it takes to swing the weapon and the period over which the impulse force is applied 

    MagicWeaponMultiplier is a catch all multiplier for non physics driven damage itemization 

    AngleOfStrike is the angle off perpendicular to the contact surface 

    DefendStrength is the lifting and holding strength of the defender again in Newtons. 

    ShieldDistance is how far off your body you are holding your shield.  Holding your shield out provides more absorption but costs stamina both in holding the shield out Ms*G*SD*time and each time you block the (MassShield*Gravity*ShieldDistance))*ShieldDistance would come from stamina rather than health. 

    This opens up all kinds of fun shield stance options including holding shields at specific angles at the cost of stamina. 

    This also shows why a buckler was just a security blanket they handed out to cannon fodder afraid of arrows to make them feel better and a Roman Scutum is an article of war that dominates the battlefield (curve made for constant deflection and the grip was near optimal holding that could still be placed off body in a charge or braced against the ground when resisting one). 

    • 1315 posts
    December 5, 2020 10:01 AM PST

    Turning Surface area into a real value could be very cool as well. Could be either attack zone denial if you have some form of point targeting system or it could be a % chance to block based on your PCs hit box vs the area covered by the shield. 

    There should be some penalty if not a 100% penalty to dodge if you are using a shield to block.  It is a completely different stance and mentality to use a shield then to try and dodge.  Movement penalties and attack penalties as well if your shield is larger or heavier than your body can handle just for carrying it.

    • 1921 posts
    December 5, 2020 10:16 AM PST

    Trasak said: ... There should be some penalty if not a 100% penalty to dodge if you are using a shield to block.  It is a completely different stance and mentality to use a shield then to try and dodge.  Movement penalties and attack penalties as well if your shield is larger or heavier than your body can handle just for carrying it.

    There's likely some room for interpretation when it comes to Bucklers and Parrying Shields, on that topic.  Both Dark Souls and RL Australian Aborigines used Parrying Shields to great effect, likely while dodging, given their small size, light weight, and being purpose built.  I know you said "if you are using a shield to block".
    I wholeheartedly agree with Tower Shields, Heater Shields, and Kite Shields, though.  Typically, their weight alone precludes being 'nimble'.  On the other hand, 'magic' can make anything weightless.

    • 1315 posts
    December 5, 2020 11:23 AM PST

    vjek said:

    There's likely some room for interpretation when it comes to Bucklers and Parrying Shields, on that topic.  Both Dark Souls and RL Australian Aborigines used Parrying Shields to great effect, likely while dodging, given their small size, light weight, and being purpose built.  I know you said "if you are using a shield to block".

    I wholeheartedly agree with Tower Shields, Heater Shields, and Kite Shields, though.  Typically, their weight alone precludes being 'nimble'.  On the other hand, 'magic' can make anything weightless.

    Certainly.  Different areas and times used different words for the same thing and even more aggravatingly used the same word for different things. 

    The bucker I am referring too was the small round shield strapped directly to the forearm.  Pretty much only ever used by under equipped fighters or fighters using 2 hand weapons.  Those shields usually were only to hold over top of your head when a flight of arrows was shot at you.  Even then they are not that effective.  A hardened vambrace is often better to block with. 

    Light/Parry Shields are more for parrying melee attacks and blocking ranged attacks.  Their size and weight make them more like a hard weapon that you just use to actively defend with.  How you hold them also makes a different.  Parry shields usually have a handle and maybe a wrist strap stabilizer.  Benefit is you can get that shield out at your full reach and really mess with people. 

    The big shields that really block are often more hung from your elbow and the positioning is controlled with the grip.  The weight of these shields makes dodging all but impossible.  Even moving in formation can be tough and exhausting if you are holding the shields away from your body. (Fun personal experience there). 

    There are some mass and grip style overlaps between the two types and with the right grip and high enough strength you can use shields like the kite or Byzantine Tear Drop partially as a parry shield if you are strong enough. 

    Potentially love the idea of enchanting individual items to have a buoyancy effect to negate some or all the effect of gravity on the object.  Leave other effects in possibly but just remove the downward force of gravity and consequently the energy drain of moving it up or holding it in place.  I suppose it wouldn’t fall either if you let go of it.  Better to make the enchant only work when equipped.  


    This post was edited by Trasak at December 5, 2020 11:35 AM PST
    • 768 posts
    December 13, 2020 10:22 PM PST

    Below are some videos concerning the construction and functionality of shields. 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APsVY8XGaqQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEsjPQeWmd8&t=164s

    One  can only hope shields in Pantheon will have more depth than being a secondary slot filler with a block stat on it. Shields should be more than just a static factor. They should be actively wielded and could be an deliberate and alternating consideration of the tank.

    I like the idea of influencing movement speed depending on the kind of shield you're equipping. But perhaps that's already taking this too far. It would be require a decent advantage compared to the decrease in movementspeed for a tank to choose this kind of shield. Tanks in general however would really have an indepth knowledge of how shields work and which to use in various situations or playstyles. And that's a big plus. They could be impacting actual combat tactics and manoevres. And doing so it could define class and player playstyles and provide even more unique character to tanks.

    It can also provide a link towards none-tank classes wielding shields. (there are a few, although I forgot which) 


    This post was edited by Barin999 at December 13, 2020 10:26 PM PST
    • 1315 posts
    December 14, 2020 4:57 AM PST

    Going to have to watch those later.  I am a fiend for learning construction and manufacturing technics of . . . . well everything but armor is up there.  Armor and bells.  Armor, bells and watches.  Armor, bells, watches and CNC machines. Armor, bells, watches, CNC machines and semimetalic composit ceramics. Armor *Trasak gets tazed*

    Um, where was I.  Ah yes.  Shields for non tanks are an interesting idea as well in general if they become part of a fighting style.  The parrying types of shields and a main gauche are good example of offhand defensive items that are focused on creating openings for main hand attacks.  Shields as a clerics holy symble is pretty cannon as well.

    D&D did a good job of creating sword and board feats as well as some finesse feats for attacking with your shield for low damage but causing some form of debuff.

    • 3852 posts
    December 14, 2020 11:14 AM PST

    Good discussion here. I doubt if VR will go into anywhere near this level of complexity but it sure would be interesting if they did.

    • 768 posts
    January 7, 2021 11:10 PM PST
    @dorotea based on recent replies of conco and nephele... I don't see why this would be too much. (The actual visuals might)
    They are speaking of a more complex design of enhancement and modification of stats. Compared to that this shield suggestion is much more simplistic and does not require any other resources.
    The design sounds fun, let us hope they start off simple. Let us savour every stage of the games' growth.