Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

What form should Risk take in Crafting and Gathering?

    • 416 posts
    December 10, 2020 11:23 AM PST

    Trasak said:

    dorotea said:

    *snip*

    2. Anything involving player skill runs the risk of turning the game into a first person shooter where gear is distinctly subordinated to vision, reflexes, internet connection quality, and expensive computers and monitors. We have enough games like this. Anyone that was playing in 1999 is more than 20 years older now and we weren't all kids back then. Tailoring game aspects to reflexes and vision (as well as the other things I mention) is not necessarily a benefit to this demographic.

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    *snip*

    I like the ideas put forward here of making harvesting/crafting take a while as well on a personal level, but I could see it going wrong with all the QOL players deciding they aren't gonna craft. 

    I would like to comment on these two quotes together as they are sort of pointing at the same issue.

    This is a big game design question I guess but “Should capping out a Crafting class be any easier or quicker than capping out an Adventuring Class?”

    I contend that if Player Crafted items are intended to evenly compete with Mob Drop items then they need to represent a similar amount of play time to acquire.  Time spent can be broken up into; time to level to be capable, time spent to access (faction grinds or keying), camping the opportunity (rare mobs or rare harvest nodes), chance of redo (crafting failure or low drop chance on a rare spawn), and time to acquire needed gear.  The exact weighting of where the time is spent is up for debate and design but on the Time Spent vs Reward scale they need to be pretty balanced and Risk really is just a contributor to Time Spent.

    So I am of the opinion that if Crafting is to actually matter in the game then it cannot be trivial to master or a given that everyone can be a top end crafter.  Just because you made a level 1 adventuring character does not mean you are guaranteed to become an end game raider.  So likewise just because you picked up a hammer does not mean you should expect to be able to forge an artifact sword without a lot of hard work.

    One of the easiest and best ways to control how much time is invested in leveling crafting is the time it takes to craft a non-trivial item and the number of items you should expect to need to craft.  Just like adventuring experience required the right gear, the right target, and paying attention crafting should too.  As Vjek said in the difficulty post its all about the intended time to kill/craft.  Once  you know that then you can project how long leveling either would roughly take if you could pull/craft end to end.

    I can agree with dorotea that we do not want a twitch based crafting experience any more than we want one in adventuring.  Likewise with BeaverBiscuit we don’t want to push the decision tree too arcane or it would drive people away due to poor QOL experience.

    So the question becomes how complex is too complex and how fast a rate of decision making can you go before the game play switched from tactical to twitch.

    Personally I would say that copying Pantheon combat is not a bad option for both the pacing and complexity.  Having a crafting class being able to acquire 20 active technics and 10 passive technics then needing to pick 8 active and 6 passive for what you are planning to do.  Then have a 6-12 second turn based pacing where you pick what to do next based on what happened last and where you are trying to go.  Your crafting mana and its regeneration will dictate how long you can keep trying and how often you can start up a new recipe.

    Crafting would be more about leveling up those 30 abilities rather than a core crafting class as your ability to complete a recipe before you run out of crafting mana is dependent on a combination of your ability rank, your equipment, your raw materials and how complex your target item is.  This could also feed into a great group crafting system where different crafters will pick their own set to apply and or spread out the crafting mana expenditure.

     

    This seems spot on to me, well said Trasak.

    • 768 posts
    December 10, 2020 12:08 PM PST

    dorotea said:

    Final point on this theme. A high quality item may require materials from a dungeon boss to complete. This satisfies your concern in all respects. But once the item is in the crafter's hands because she did the dungeon or bought it from someone that did the dungeon - why should she need 5 friends standing around the forge getting in the way to actually construct the final product?

    You kind of lost me there. 

    Why should she need more crafters? Perhaps the challenge of crafting has just begun. It was just one small part to get 1 high quality resource. But there are several (many) other resources required aside of that. Resources that need to be produced on the spot. Or interactables that need to  be managed in order to wield the "massive/magic" forge. 

    To get a high quality resource from a dungeon is not the same as going to the market to buy your final product. It's just one step, a step that might have little crafting demands at that stage, but many in the steps beyond that. Often times the magic forge comes to mind as an example. But perhaps consider just managing a windmill, a watermill, any other kind of mill, looms, bakeries, ovens. A manual sawing device, stone crusher etc. There are many situations where you need more than 1 player in a none-combat context. This context could call for skills or abilities that relate to that person's main trade profession, but perhaps not their main skillset per se.  Similar to what Trasak said about X amount of skills and abilities to choose from. 

    Do you want riskfree crafting content? Well I too hope it's out there and plenty to solo. You want more risk while crafting/gathering, well good chance you'll need to consider teaming up in more than 1 occasion. (in one or many parts of that venture)


    This post was edited by Barin999 at December 10, 2020 12:09 PM PST
    • 3852 posts
    December 10, 2020 4:13 PM PST

    ((You kind of lost me there. ))

    The point that triggered this discussion was a suggestion that it should take a group of crafters to make a top quality item. Not that it should take items from different crafters - this kind of interdependence is not very controversial - but that at the time of final crafting a group process should be involved. I disagreed and urged that crafting be left as something that we could log on and do on our own on days that we had no time to find a group or weren't in the mood for grouping.

    As the discussion continued, Trasak argued that crafted gear shouldn't be something that could easily be made solo since this would undercut the value and importance of groups that might be going onto dungeons for comparable quality gear. My intent was to continue in disagreement and to note that if VR doesn't want group dungeons to be undercut they can require an item from that group dungeon to be used by the solo crafter making a good item. They do not need to require group crafting. 

    I may have squeezed too much into three lines to be clear.

    • 768 posts
    December 10, 2020 11:16 PM PST

    dorotea said:

    ...discussion  that it should take a group of crafters to make a top quality item. Not that it should take items from different crafters ... I disagreed and urged that crafting be left as something that we could log on and do on our own on days that we had no time to find a group or weren't in the mood for grouping.

    It's an understandable argument. In your context of crafting being a solo/short time investment playsession, where would you lay the risk? Or would you have no risk or increase thereof at all? (which is an opinion like any other ofc) Would you add a risk factor in the obtaining of resources or in the crafting of the item? And if it's meant to solo, what might the consequences be of failing to match the challenge/risk? What is the short or long term impact of that? How do you envision stimulating those solo sessions players to become more invested (either by doing more solo stuff or engaging in higher risk (note! not higher level per se) content)? And how would you connect this to the world/community? 

    dorotea said:

    ... crafted gear shouldn't be something that could easily be made solo since this would undercut the value and importance of groups that might be going onto dungeons for comparable quality gear. ... if VR doesn't want group dungeons to be undercut they can require an item from that group dungeon to be used by the solo crafter making a good item. They do not need to require group crafting. 

    Where is the risk in this part of the discussion? It seems more like an obstacle for the crafter instead of a true risk. With greater risks come greater rewards. So going from that slogan, this could be the case for crafting and gathering aswel. Low risk might just mean solo content. Granted finding a group of crafters can also be considered an obstacle. However what happens after you've formed that group is where the risk might come in. Teamworking, coordination, planning, skill/abilities might influence the risk of being succesful. Instead of relying on yourself alone, the increased risk would be the other groupmembers or an increase of complexity/parameters compared to what's been offered to a solo player. 

    I enjoy the discussion of how to obtain resources and which that might be. To me this seems a question for those adventurers willing to take that risk and venture out to collect those resources in that dungeon. If there are dungeons out there, that do not require combined fighting and the solo player is challenged to gather resources on their own. That's another thing entirely. Then you have gathering risk and deliberate choice in a solo player session.


    This post was edited by Barin999 at December 11, 2020 11:02 AM PST
    • 3852 posts
    December 11, 2020 7:11 AM PST

    Barin999 - If I understand your point - and I think I do, you were rather clear - you feel that there should be some risk involved in the crafting/gathering process. I agree. You also feel that one way to provide this risk is to have some materials used for crafting come from dungeons. I necessarily agree that this is one way to do it - I merely feel it is the *wrong* way. For reasons having nothing to do with whether group crafting should be - what is the slang term these days - a thing. 

    1. I fundamentally like the Vanguard theme - that crafting and adventuring (Vanguard also had diplomacy on the list) should be separate and in some ways equal. You shouldn't need to be an adventurer to craft and you shouldn't need to be a crafter to adventure. Unlike some games which tied adventurer level to what crating opportunities were available. To oversimplify - a crafter can sit by the loom or forge as a level 1 adventurer and reach the top levels of crafting ability as long as the raw materials are provided. To save you the effort of pointing this out I note that nothing you say conflicts with this theme. That will come in point 2 below.

    2. Taking this one step further - I also feel that harvesting and crafting together should form an interwoven combination and they together should be separate but equal to adventuring. In Vanguard a level one adventurer could be a top quality harvester and could get the best rares and later ultrarares in the game. Granted it wasn't as easy to get to them at level one but there were ways. More normally a dedicated harvester/crafter would get to a respectable adventuring level and have at least mediocre gear in order to get to more harvest areas but would not need to hit maximum level or have dungeon/raid gear. The concept of needing to actually go into a dungeon and kill a boss to make more than mediocre crafted items is fundamentally antithical to this view of how things should work. I would prefer if people that want to craft and harvest can do so without needing to be fed materials by those rough, smelly. uncouth *adventuring* low-lifes.

    3. Finally - I disagree with any premise that adventuring in a dungeon necessarily involves more risk. At any level below maximum level an overleveled group can go in with little or no risk, trash the place and get the craftable material. More quickly and easily than a harvester could get to a location where rares are available and farm long enough to get enough rares to make a valuable item. Facing competition from both mobs and other players. Even at level-cap, in a typical MMO, any but the hardest raids or dungeons become quickly understood and once characters gear up a bit they are placed "on farm" and are routine, not challenging. Pantheon may not work this way. Then again it probably will.

    I end with repeating my basic "what is good for the game" point. It is good for the game if Pantheon supports both solo play and group play. It adds to the playerbase and keeps more people subscribing. On the adventuring side it is certain that Pantheon will strongly encourage grouping and have a minimum to do for players that feel like being solo or do not have enough time to group. Either becauser they only have half an hour or an hour that day or because of frequent family/work interruptions.I see it as desirable - very much so - for crafting and harvesting to be a safety valve - something for those who often or even usually cannot group to be able to do. Not necessarily as antisocial hermits either. A good crafter is a great asset to any adventuring guild and may socialize as much in guild or world chat as any other player does in group or raid chat.


    This post was edited by dorotea at December 11, 2020 7:14 AM PST
    • 125 posts
    December 11, 2020 11:27 AM PST

    I 100% agree with Dorotea on this subject. I work full time and during the weekly evenings I may only have an hour to play or two tops if I'm very lucky. No matter what people say that simply just isn't going to be enough time to organise a group and do level appropiate content. 

    I have always enjoyed leveling up harvesting and crafting professions in an OCD kind of way and had thought that this would be something I could do on those days when I don't have time for long enjoyable group sessions. It sounds like people are pushing for every aspect of the game to involve full group work.

    I imagine there are a large number of people in a similar situation to myself and having no solo content would be a gamebreaker for me and many others I imagine. Or maybe the game just isn't for me. We will wait and see I guess!!

    • 2138 posts
    December 14, 2020 10:09 AM PST

    Barin999 said:

    dorotea said:

    Final point on this theme. A high quality item may require materials from a dungeon boss to complete. This satisfies your concern in all respects. But once the item is in the crafter's hands because she did the dungeon or bought it from someone that did the dungeon - why should she need 5 friends standing around the forge getting in the way to actually construct the final product?

    [...] But perhaps consider just managing a windmill, a watermill, any other kind of mill, looms, bakeries, ovens. A manual sawing device, stone crusher etc. There are many situations where you need more than 1 player in a none-combat context. This context could call for skills or abilities that relate to that person's main trade profession, but perhaps not their main skillset per se.  Similar to what Trasak said about X amount of skills and abilities to choose from. 

     

    forgive my '90's saturday morning cartoon watching, I flashed to a Voltron-like raid/group event where each player is manipulating a section in a frankenstein-like behemoth to get it to action in proper sequence and order with different orders of events producing different deadly/humerous/successfull outcomes. A guitar-hero like telegraphed sequence but where each player can only do one thing, or pluck one string, but with recovery steps if you miss a beat that get faster or slower to execute as time goes on. with a view to seeing what the behemoth is doing.

    • 2752 posts
    December 14, 2020 10:15 AM PST

    Adrenicus said:

    I 100% agree with Dorotea on this subject. I work full time and during the weekly evenings I may only have an hour to play or two tops if I'm very lucky. No matter what people say that simply just isn't going to be enough time to organise a group and do level appropiate content. 

    I have always enjoyed leveling up harvesting and crafting professions in an OCD kind of way and had thought that this would be something I could do on those days when I don't have time for long enjoyable group sessions. It sounds like people are pushing for every aspect of the game to involve full group work.

    I imagine there are a large number of people in a similar situation to myself and having no solo content would be a gamebreaker for me and many others I imagine. Or maybe the game just isn't for me. We will wait and see I guess!!

    If crafting can be done so safely/easily does it deserve to produce items equivalent to adventuring drops that take more time/risk/teamwork? If not and it's just throwing together "leveling" recipes for crafting, is crafting really meaningful at that point?

    • 125 posts
    December 14, 2020 10:32 AM PST

    Iksar said:

    Adrenicus said:

    I 100% agree with Dorotea on this subject. I work full time and during the weekly evenings I may only have an hour to play or two tops if I'm very lucky. No matter what people say that simply just isn't going to be enough time to organise a group and do level appropiate content. 

    I have always enjoyed leveling up harvesting and crafting professions in an OCD kind of way and had thought that this would be something I could do on those days when I don't have time for long enjoyable group sessions. It sounds like people are pushing for every aspect of the game to involve full group work.

    I imagine there are a large number of people in a similar situation to myself and having no solo content would be a gamebreaker for me and many others I imagine. Or maybe the game just isn't for me. We will wait and see I guess!!

    If crafting can be done so safely/easily does it deserve to produce items equivalent to adventuring drops that take more time/risk/teamwork? If not and it's just throwing together "leveling" recipes for crafting, is crafting really meaningful at that point?

     

    Maybe I have gotten the wrong end of the stick with this or maybe I just haven't played a game with a deep crafting system. I obviously do not expect to be able to craft epic weapons by going out and harvesting materials solo. All crafting systems have an element of grind to them to reach max level and my point is I do not want to have to group to get basic materials (I expect some areas of zones to be soloable) or have to find groups to then craft the basic items to level up the profession. If I'm comparing it to Vanilla WoW I mean the basic 'green' level equipment you craft at each tier. I expect crafting the rarer (blue or purple) items to require a group to gather the materials/find a rare forge and/or finding a group to then craft them (if group crafting is a thing).

    My main point is if there isn't something I can spend half an hour to an hour doing peacefully after work during the week to progress my character I'll be looking elsewhere. 

    • 1315 posts
    December 14, 2020 11:01 AM PST

    There could just straight up be recipes that require multiple crafting profession.  Rather than having a blacksmithing recipe that requires ingredients that have been worked by a leather worker and an alchemist it is a straight up Blacksmithing/Leatherworking/Alchemy recipe.  You need one crafter of each type with the recipe to even attempt the recipe.

    Any recipe that is listed as a single craft can be soloed but if multiple are listed then it cannot be (assuming one craft per character).  The solo recipes still might need worked ingredients and solo recipes might be faster if two crafters of the same skill assisted each other to share mana and avoided needing to do multiple start/stop loops.

    • 3852 posts
    December 14, 2020 11:13 AM PST

    ((If crafting can be done so safely/easily does it deserve to produce items equivalent to adventuring drops that take more time/risk/teamwork? If not and it's just throwing together "leveling" recipes for crafting, is crafting really meaningful at that point?))

    If you like we can debate the degree of risk and time spent by a level 45 group going into a level 30 dungeon for materials. We can also discuss the risk and time involved at level-cap by an experienced and well geared group going into a dungeon they have "on farm" to get materials. Then we can discuss the amount of risk and time required for a harvester to get a comparable amount of exotic materials as discussed by Nephele quite recently. 

    Want to bet that it takes me more time with more risk as a harvester than it takes you in a group rolling through one of those dungeons?

    • 888 posts
    December 31, 2020 2:15 AM PST

    I would like to see one type of crafting be especially dangerous.  These could be items that are consumable thrown weapons.  They are so dangerous that there aren't even crafting stations for it and players have to craft the actual crafting station and use it in a remote location (or risk being attacked by guards).  The crafted items cannot be sold to NPCs or placed on the auction house and can only be traded between players, creating a de-facto black market item.  

    Suggested items:

    1. Smoke Juice (thrown potion that creates a smoke field that reduces mob visual range)
    2. Choke Juice (thrown potion that causes non-undead mobs to gasp and choke for a few seconds, slowing movement and attack speed)
    3. Thunder Stick (thrown item that creates a loud noise where it lands and can cause some mobs to come investigate while others temporarily flee)
    4. Boom Stick (thrown item that explodes for damange)
    5. Crater Stick (unstable thrown item that explodes for high damage--it can go off when thrown and is called a "Crater Stick" because crafting it is so risky that often all that's left when someone tries to create one is a crater.  If it explodes while crafting, it kills the crafter and destroys the crafting station)
    • 123 posts
    January 17, 2021 7:42 AM PST

    Through the topic it seems that risk has mainly been considered through the crafting process by itself (lots of good ideas).

    I'd like to introduce the risk through the crafting environment. Crafting a powerful item could require being crafted in an area very risky to reach and we can also imagine that some recipes could attract powerfull foes during the crafting process, requiring the crafter being protected ! Let's imagine a weaponsmith crafting a sword with demon slayer abilities, that would make sense demons not being pleased and coming to kick his ass before he can achieve his work, it would contribute to immersion and fun.