Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

What form should Risk take in Crafting and Gathering?

    • 1785 posts
    November 17, 2020 8:09 AM PST

    Hi everyone!

    One of the tenets we have for Pantheon is "Greater Risk earns Greater Rewards".  As we work on building out the game's gathering and crafting systems, we want to hold true to that tenet - we don't want either system to be viewed as just a time or money sink, and we want the gameplay for both gathering and crafting to really feel meaningful and to give players a sense of accomplishment.  When you get that backpack full of ore, or you finish sewing that awesome cloak or brewing that potion, it should ideally feel like a victory, just like it does when you kill a monster and get a really neat loot drop, or when you come to the end of a perception storyline and learn a secret about the world.

    With that in mind, I'm very interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on what form the risk should take for both crafting and gathering.  What do you feel would be appropriate and what types or levels of risk do you think would help make these activities feel more fun overall?

     

     

    • 287 posts
    November 17, 2020 8:24 AM PST

    Crafting and gathering should have similar risk/rewards to everything else. There should be easier more common nodes for players to solo and there should be harder nodes that would require groups or a highly skilled soloer to somewhat affectively farm. It would be cool to see xp camps that not only gravitated towards boss mobs, but also having "node" camps, where your bonus to camping xp isn't necessarily getting a rare drop from a nearby boss, but rare nodes.

    As for crafting, something more intricate that clicking buttons would be cool, but making it "difficult" simply by forcing you to travel to location X to craft something should be rare, as that is more of a time sink than adding any difficulty to the process.

    • 521 posts
    November 17, 2020 8:29 AM PST

    I’d think crafting and harvesting needs to be part of a triad (Adventuring,crafting,harvesting)of character choices. All using one set number of available points, with mastering one area using most of them, leaving some for dabbling in the novice skills of another area, but not mastering it.

    Aside from the expected critical failures during crafting-harvesting explosions when mixing ingredients wrong or missing the ore node and hitting your leg, The risk primary for crafting or harvesting should be the need to gain aid in some areas from an adventurer due to a lack in combat skills.

    Also I’m not opposed to having scattered gathering nodes, but I think having some actual mines or mining areas for the primary resources is a great way to foster social interactions between the players.


    This post was edited by HemlockReaper at November 17, 2020 5:23 PM PST
    • 888 posts
    November 17, 2020 8:43 AM PST
    I'm not a crafter since no game has created a crafting system that I enjoy. For me, I see several ways to make crafting more fun. You mentioned danger, and that's certainly one way, but it's very hard to really make it dangerous in any way that feels real and makes sense lore-wise. The only ways I could see doing this would be to either have some sort of interface where you're managing several interactions simultaneously (keeping everything in balance to avoid an explosion) or by having a magic ritual crafting system where if you perform the ritual incorrectly, instead of adding demon strength to anyone item, you accidentally spawn a demon.

    Another way to make crafting fun is to allow player skill (not character skill) matter. This is very hard to do since most crafting systems are just a formulaic "add X and Y to get Z". This requires no skill at all and is just a boring, repetitive process.

    My personal preference would be a crafting system that is not formula-based, but allows for many different ways to do things. The end product should be slightly but noticibly different, depending upon how it was made. A creative crafting system like this would allow for personal expression as well as allow for individual crafters to earn reputations for the quality or artistry of their work. This would be a very hard system to build, but would be immensely rewarding and repeatable. For those who've played City of Heroes, imagine the character creator. Now imagine you created and sold costumes one at a time, and that others enjoyed your costuming skill and style enough that they actually sought out your work (and would see your name if they inspected and item). This is what a creative crafting system could look like.
    • 42 posts
    November 17, 2020 10:13 AM PST

    I would preface, before what I would like to see from crafting, with what I don't want to occur.  I want items to have set stats and I don't want items to have an RNG component when it comes to stats such as in crafting I can make an item that gives a range of Dexterity bonus anywhere from +1-5 depending on the quality.  What i would like to see is in certain cases, the opportunity to craft something completely different would occur instead.

    I think leveraging the acclimation and extreme climates system is a great opportunity to leverage this concept for crafting.  For example, let's say that crafting a platinum sword would garner a decent item for a level 25 player and there is a significant amount of cost associated with making it from a materials perspective.  Let's then say if you attempt to craft this platinum sword in an extreme heat climate, it gives you a probablity of crafting a platinum sword of burning that gives a +2 STR and a flamestrike proc.  I don't want these possibilities to be openly apparent or the recipe is laid out in front of you but to instead empower the crafter to explore different areas to see these unique items get created from normal recipes. The crafting process itself should not be a simple click and done, but should be a task that requires some time to go through such as a combination of presses that you have to be aware/paying attention of or let's say you have to hit key x within 10 seconds to pull the sword out of the forge before it burns and then like 20 seconds later you have 10 seconds to hit key y to quench the blade.  Any interruption during this process could cause failure.  Then obviously doing this in a dangerous area where mobs or the climate could interrupt you, the risk of failure is much greater, but if you can spend the 2 minutes to create the item and survive, the chance of it being unique is possible.  I would then say as your skill increases, it gives you a wider range of time to hit the required button to proceed on to the next crafting step.  Like level 1, there is a possiblity within the first 30 seconds at point in time that you have a 3 second window to hit key x, but level 10 you have 10 seconds to hit key x within the random 30 second time window.

    Again this is just a rough idea of how to make crafting a bit more interesting and could add some risk, as opposed to RNG determines your failure and loss of items, maybe crafting an super expensive/unique item requires you to be on your toes for 8 minutes and if you hit all the marks, failure or success is not determined by RNG, but instead by your active engagement.

    • 57 posts
    November 17, 2020 11:21 AM PST

    Harvesting -- It should be not simply be a repeated click on this 'node' until it is expended.  The area in which the node exists should determine only the tier of components generated.  Nodes in higher level areas should of course provide better materials.  A separate set of harvesting gear should not be required to be exchanged for combat gear.  What I envision is something more akin to a critical failure (injure yourself, damage tool, etc.), normal gathering, critical success (rare identified).  During each 'critical' event, be it failure or success, a skillful interaction is needed based on whatever modifiers seem appropriate (Int, Wis, Str, Dex, Agil, etc).  During the critical harvest process, a timed skill-based response is needed from the player to determine the tiered outcome (somewhat similar to EQ2 crafting mechanic).  This would decide if a rare was successfully extracted (how much -- zero quantity to whatever amount is appropriate) or if your harvest tool was damaged (worn, broken, injured player, or some combination of them).

    Crafting would be similar mechanic to harvesting.  The quality/rarity of the crafting station should be environment based the harder the station is to access the higher the reward potential. It should take multiple sub-combines to make a final product like Vanguard and the grade of the sub-components (i.e. common, rare, legendary, mythical) determine the starting potential of the final product.  Components (i.e. dusts would be added to the processes to determine the outcome of the item).

    Just ideas of what I think might be engaging.

    • 768 posts
    November 17, 2020 11:27 AM PST

    If nodes are to be harvested in proximity of Aggro mob X. If the mob is pulled away from the node's area, the node decreases in value or dissappears entirely. Designwise that would mean you're creating a condition for certain nodes to occur. If the requirements for that condition are not met, the node will not appear or a different node outcome will present itself instead.

    I like the idea of going to harvesting locations where you're not combatting the mobs but the area instead. Trying to gather a weed growing on an extreme windy mountaintop. Gathering frozen crystals under a lake of ice. Collecting fungi or molds from toxic environments. All these are conditions that can spice things up for a harvester or a group thereof.

    Especially with seasons in mind, a master harvester, is someone who knows the land, knows where and when to harvest and with which harvesting tools. Perhaps it's not always optimal to use the highest tier harvesting tools, but you need a more delicate approach instead. 

    A challenge could be to allow areas to spawn resources or otherwise provide resources that require preparing to venture outside, but also that only are available for X time. /day/month/season/mooncycle etc. This is a subtle way to impact the goals of harvesters but also the value of the end result and the reward of being succesful.

    Another example is a node that requires a large amount of time before you're able to harvest things. This could be in a larger area. But the harvesting action must be ongoing for x time for it to be productive. All this harvesting time, could attract mobs, which in turn are endangering the harvester. So instead of remaining stationary, it might be required to move about the area but doding the increasingly dangerous population of risks.

    A more docile approach would be where the harvester needs to put in other resources in order to generate a more unique node. There might be an abundance of X in the room, but you need X if you want to obtain Y in the end. This is a simple example of a harvesting'puzzle'. A variety of other requirements can be filled in here, in order to spawn/trigger the release of a node.

    Harvestables with an expiration date. Within a certain time after harvesting, you need to have processed the resource. This in order to stablize the resource and prevent it from expiring before usage. I like this one, because it requires knownledge of the game, preparation before going out to harvest. And depending on the conditions this could be a challenging experience (where portals or such are not allowed). If the time expired before processing it, the resource might just decrease in value or such.

    Lastly, it's an fun idea to consider a harvestingtool that needs to be wielded by multiple players for it to function. Harvestingtool can also be translated as an interactable that impacts the surrounding area.  Use a large forge to melt down ice from a patch of steel.  Poor down a continous stream of acid on a steel plate to break into a vault of harvestables. Slam/chop into a wooden barrier with enough players to reveal hidden nodes.


    This post was edited by Barin999 at November 17, 2020 11:36 AM PST
    • 2419 posts
    November 17, 2020 11:37 AM PST

    Harvesting/gathering should be as risky as adventuring, requiring the person(s) wanting those materials to go out into the wilds to procure it.  Little to no items should be found in cities, other than say fuel* needed by a particular crafting station.  Just as it takes time to kill an NPC, obtaining the materials should also take an appropriate amount of time. No 'click and done then move on'. Tools should be an integral part as should a harvesting skill where failure doesn't result in nothing gathered, but significantly reduced amounts gathered. And, yes, some nodes should be considered to be 'owned' by, say, a nearby sentient societal NPC who could take offense at your theft of their property, resulting in faction hits.  You could choose to take the time to raise your faction with them and purchase said materials and avoid the faction hit.  A choice is there to be made.

    Furthermore, some crafting should require the use of crafting stations that only exist out in the wild in dangerous places.  That sword you want to make out of very rare ore requires the use of a forge that only exists in the lair of some high end and very dangerous lava elementals. Dangerous such that the crafter will need a group to defend him from those elements who jealously guard their forge.  In addition, some crafting stations out there could be in the hands of sentient, societal NPCs who could very well let you use their stations provided you have the appropriate level of faction with them.  That faction may put other factions you deem important into peril so you have a choice to make there.

    Only at the lowest levels of crafting should you be completely free from danger, able to do all your work within the safety of a city or village.

    *Fuel:  Crafting should need some form of fuel or component, or item that is always consumed in the manufacturing process regardless if you succeed or fail.  Some are easily identified like coal coke for a forge used in blacksmithing, or wood for a stove/oven/campfire used for cooking.  Even Alchemy/Poisoncraft needs some type of fuel for the distilling of essenses.  I'm not sure what fuel-type component would be appropriate for, say, leatherworking (unless part of the leather making process invovles steeping the skins in a hot alkaline bath) or what might be appropriate for Fletching.

    • 144 posts
    November 17, 2020 11:45 AM PST

    I am not much of a crafter other than doing it out of necessity. However, what I can tell you is this: RNG should have NO PLACE in crafting. I think one of the worst ways to do crafting is to make a sword but have no idea what the outcome is going to be. Ex: having a bunch of random and goofy stats that make no sense and having to make 10 of them to get anything decent, or 30 to get something pretty close to what you want. Such a waste of time, material, and fun. 

    Risk is something that should be separated from RNG. Risk should be implemented, RNG should be removed. An example of risk if if a recipe calls for 10 iron ore, 5 hides, and 2 rares. Well if I only have 9 iron ore and everything else, my success rate should be like 90%. But if I'm missing both rares it should be .005% success rate, with having one rare bring it up to like 25% maybe. That is Risk and there is Reward. And I need to be notified somehow of my risk...not just leaving it up to RNG. Yes, technically there is some RNG in there when actually rolling the dice to see if I get my % to hit or not, but the main factor is I knew ahead of time I had x amount of risk. RNG to me is hitting the button and honestly having no clue what is going to come out the other end (like random stats). 

    Risk could also be something not even related to crafting. The risk could simply be the LOCATION of where you need to craft. I remember in eq2 we had to go DEEP into solsuk eye in lavastorm for something to use a special anvil. It wasn't even for me, but one of my guildies and I still remember that and think it was so cool. You just can't go the route of ESO and put 500 "special" crafting stations out there, then nothing is special. 

    Risk could be involved with player skill as well. I would really like to get away from the mundane boring x+y=z type of crafting where its just a check of if you have materials in your bag and then it auto crafts it for you. I would like some type of interactive crafting style. I don't really even know if I'm talking about some kind of "mini-game," but something where I'm involved. EQ2 had a tradeskill window where you had actual abilities that would aid in the process. You had to watch what the machine/anvil was doing and then use abilities that correlated with that. If you did it right progress happened faster, if you did it wrong...you lost progress. They even came out with crafting gear (2 % progress chance increase, etc). Unfortunately it wasn't all that exciting; it was like somebody came up with a good idea but never invested time into it. 

    The risk when doing it this way, is it could be very hard to craft something 8 levels ahead of you and you may fail and lose your items, but you at least had the ability to try. Meanwhile crafting something below your level would be easy. 

    Theres several differen't ways to implement risk, I think you're the right guy to figure this out, and I think you'll be grand! Personally, I think ridding the old system of x+y=Z and developing an interactive crafting system will at that point open the door for more risk development. 

    Thanks Nephele! 

    Make Crafting Exciting Agai....well, was it ever exciting though? 

    • 768 posts
    November 17, 2020 11:47 AM PST

    Just a thought here, different faction increases depending on the outcome of your craftingsession. Heck, even faction decreases if you're not capable keeping up 'your quality reputation'. And perhaps more reluctant npc's after failing X crafts. Or the other way around, where husslers approach novice crafters and nobles approach experienced crafters.

    I think it's a nice idea, knowing that when I finish my leather cloak my faction goes up. Or when I finish this unique shield, I'll be allowed to a distinguished merchant quarter. 

    The obvious risk while crafting are getting hurt by your tools, workstation, getting exhausted, losing materials, reduction of your outcome in quality or quantity.

    Getting mugged/robbed while crafting? (just a crazy thought) You are a wealthy crafter with pricy resources after all. Or in other words, an ongoing coinrequirement to make use of a station. The longer you need to finish the craft, the more money you need to have on you before you start.

    The difficulty could go up (to a degree) if you fail, before going back to an easier modus. Another option would be to increase time investment, complexity, stress factors as you improve in your craft.

    Lethal risks could be acceptable for harvesting and crafting from time to time. 


    This post was edited by Barin999 at November 17, 2020 11:54 AM PST
    • 646 posts
    November 17, 2020 11:57 AM PST

    jstsunami said:

    Let's then say if you attempt to craft this platinum sword in an extreme heat climate, it gives you a probablity of crafting a platinum sword of burning that gives a +2 STR and a flamestrike proc.  I don't want these possibilities to be openly apparent or the recipe is laid out in front of you but to instead empower the crafter to explore different areas to see these unique items get created from normal recipes.

    I just wanted to highlight this, because I find the idea of having the environment you craft an item in affect the output of said item very exciting.

    My least favorite thing in crafting is having the results tied to RNG. So please no "Oh no, you failed to pull a successful number from the generator; go farm up the mats and try again!" If it is possible to "fail" a craft, I want it to be because I did something wrong, not because the RNG gods deemed it time to punish me. FFXIV's crafting system, with its actual abilities that you have to manage to balance the progress of the quality bar with the completion bar is one example of this. I think Jstsunami above also had a good idea around it. WildStar's coordinate grid crafting system was another.

    As far as gathering goes... I LOVE gathering when it is something I can weave into the rest of my play. So to mention FFXIV again, I'm really not a fan of the gathering system in that game, because it's so restrictive. I like being able to be out and about in the world, doing whatever it is I'm doing, and then spot a flower or a chunk of ore or whatever and think, "Yeah! Let's go get that!" Maybe my squirreling accidentally pulls an unintended mob, but... oh well, I can deal with those consequences. :p

    • 52 posts
    November 17, 2020 12:01 PM PST

    Posting from a random chat:

     

    As a matter of fact @Nephele I honestly think we need some info from you on what direction things are going in or if everything is on the table and the entire system that Corey created may be or could be thrown out in favor of other directions. It is hard to have a conversation if we don't have any idea whatsoever about a basic framework people are thinking internally.

    Since there are infinite possibilities for most things, letting us know what is solid and going to be in, would help the focus instead of the years of endless theorycrafting we all of had.

    • 1315 posts
    November 17, 2020 12:09 PM PST

    Short answer: 

    I feel that a shift-able normal distribution success probability over a variable results scale where time limits the number of player actions that can shift the variable results scale and variable adventuring sphere challenge access points for material sources and or action opportunities would make for a more enjoyable crafting/gathering experience.  (at no point do I claim reading that run-on, information cramed, sentence should be enjoyable)

    Long answer:

    Without the chance of failure success means nothing.  Failure that has no baring on player actions, just skill level, is very frustrating and is prone to bad RNG seeding.  Likewise, success through large sample size of low probability actions just feels like throwing money/time at the process rather than actual player choices.  While time is the only true commodity that players can spend in a game it should not be relied on too heavily to drive feelings of success.

    Putting this together it leads to: Variable results (binary or analog), stable normal distributions rather than cloud distribution (Success when the roll is greater than 66 on 10d10 rather than when the roll is 90-100 on 1d100 as both are a 10% chance), player actions increasing the stability (shifting from 10d10 all the way to 50d2 through player actions), and player choices shifting the target value for different variable results, as means of driving success in an enjoyable format.

    Infinite sample sizes will yield an infinite number of success regardless of the probability (calculus is weird).  To limit the sample size to something significantly less than infinity over a finite period of time you must limit the available input sets and or limit the number of actions that can be taken in said finite period of time.  Limiting projected successful output by limiting input sets only works if that limit is server wide, otherwise players can pool their resources and bypass the production limits.  Under this assumption the only way to reliably limit production is through limiting actions over a finite period of time.

    Crafting results Risk Vs Reward also needs to be balanced relative to the adventuring Risk Vs Reward.  The easiest way to do that is to have the gathering sources of the crafting be in the same global locations, and available in appropriate quantities when the success rate is factored in, as the dropped items that they are balanced against.  Additionally, there could be crafting action opportunities that can only be happened upon and not predicted to achieve parity with super rare spawn mobs.

    Lastly, if production output becomes calibrated to a limited number of actions per finite period, then the demand for raw materials goes down astronomically.  This opens up a much lower gathering rate as a reasonable system mechanic as a set of ingredients does not need to be harvested any faster than the rate at which said set can be consumed.  This can be achieved using a similar Success/Failure mechanic to crafting, orders of magnitude fewer nodes than other games, harvesting failure rates, or active resource finding rather than passive node finding.

    Examples of Variable output:

    1)      Binary: Success/Fail where inputs are consumed either way.

    2)      Analog:

    1. Quality multipliers on a base item Novice(25%), Apprentice(50%), Journeyman(75%), Masterwork (100%), Grandmaster (125%)
    2. Level range of base item: 1-10 item, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, 41-50

    Examples of distribution stability:

    1)      Skill level shifting your RNG die rolls from 1d1024 to 512d2

    2)      Workshop/harvesting tool quality and location shifting your RNG die rolls from 1d1024 to 512d2

    Examples of shifting the target value of the variable table:

    1)      Using higher quality material than required could give a bonus to either a certain number of individual dice or add a value to the summed total.  Your process stability will favor one or the other.

    2)      One use items, environmental opportunities, or known synergies could be used to shift the final results.

    Example of player actions shifting the variable result table.

    1)      Crafter action that consume a time limited crafter character resource where players will need to make choices, possibly under duress, and the correctness of those choices will affect the shift.

    Example of Active Gathering rather than passive node finding:

    1)      An active tracking skill that must be trigger off a cool down.  Then the action is triggered a chance is rolled based on the environment that said resource will be in a certain radius.  The system will then give hints in some format that either indicates there are no resources or the direction of them.  With adequate time spent then the resource can be located though it may require overcoming hazards.  Only the tracker can see or interact with the harvest node.

    2)      Quest driven harvestings:  Harvesting can only be done with a permit and those permits are time limited.  The permit must be purchased in a specific location and will allow you to find and attempt to harvest nodes in the specific location.

    3)      All nodes have adventure challenges that must be defeated before harvesting.  The rarer the node the more dangerous the adventuring challenge, players not participating meaningfully in the challenge will be unable to interact with the node.

    Any or all of these examples could be used in part or whole to create a system where success if more meaningful than most other games.


    This post was edited by Trasak at November 17, 2020 12:24 PM PST
    • 1921 posts
    November 17, 2020 1:01 PM PST

    " what form the risk should take for both crafting and gathering. What do you feel would be appropriate and what types or levels of risk do you think would help make these activities feel more fun overall? "

    1. Is it a public design goal that harvesting will or must require combat?
    2. Will all/most crafting recipes be tradeable, or not?
    3. Can one character, eventually, max out all harvesting professions/skills available in the game?
    4. Can one character, eventually, max out all crafting professions/skills available in the game?
    5. Can a character be a pure crafter, that is, become the best at crafting, without EVER engaging in combat?

    The answers to those questions will narrow the scope of the response, and allow vastly more specificity and accuracy.
    So far in the past 7 years, my impression is, in order: yes, yes, no, no, no. So, I'll respond with my OPINIONS in that context, for now.
    It's also a bit disconcerting that questions like this are being asked after Corey designed and/or implemented all of these systems into Project Faerthale.
    Unless he hasn't or didn't design and/or implement all of these systems into Project Faerthale, in which case, again, that's disconcerting. :)

    • As harvesting requires combat, whatever is the resulting interactable source of the raws should either be personal or shared for concurrent harvest, only for all participants.
    • The resulting interactable source of raws should not become interactable until all guardians of the source are defeated.
    • Characters may not interact with any source of raws if they are on the hate list of any NPC, mob, or enemy.
    • Characters may not interact with any source of raws if they are under the influence of stealth, invisibility, or anything remotely similar. All of these effects must either end at the moment interaction starts, and/or be manually cancelled prior to starting interaction, and must also not be possible during interaction.
    • Personal harvests mean it's interactable to each participant exclusively until consumed uniquely by that participant.
    • Concurrent harvest means all the participants can interact concurrently, and for greater individual reward, if they organize and use teamwork and interact at the same time.
    • If a single player is able to defeat a guarded source meant for a group, they should be rewarded appropriately, but only if risk vs. reward is a guiding principle. What this means is; decide first, before implementation, how interaction is going to work if this situation arises (and it will). Will a single player always and only get a single players worth of resources from a guarded source? Should group harvesting be the only way to get more than a single players reward from a guarded source? Whatever the design decisions are, they will create emergent player behavior, both positive and negative.
    • Rare/Common harvested raws are a mistake, and should not be used in Pantheon, for all the reasons given by the community on these forums and others over the past 7+ years.

    All harvested raws should have thematically consistent effects, when added as enchantments, inlays, filigree, tattoos, flavorings, positive effects, negative effects, components, consumable components, and more. This means if there are organic or inorganic materials in the world, when they're used in player actions, the in-context thematically consistent properties of those materials should be logical. To see what I mean, take a look at Alter Aeon. Their crafting system (while having it's minor flaws) has a really good harvesting system, and a thematically consistent materials/properties implementation. To give that some context, they have over 50 alloy recipes, over 100 gems, and at least 45 different ores. All of them have application that is consistent across all the crafting professions.

    Optionally, a temporary post-combat buff or status effect, granted only to participants, could be used as a visual indicator and/or bonus for speed, quantity, and/or range of harvest types from the resulting interactable source of raws. It could also indicate the timer within which harvesting must take place before the source of raws disappears.

    Optionally, waves of guardians, rather than just the initial guardians, must be defeated before the source of raws becomes interactable.

    For crafting actions, skills/professions, in general, I think these principles would produce a fun and challenging game loop:

    • There is constant NPC demand for the output of all crafting actions. Some NPC, somewhere, will reward you for whatever it is you have or created. In some cases, many NPCs will reward you very well or very little. Keeping in mind faction, renown, fame, etc, all NPCs should, eventually, disclose their wants or needs to each Character along with the corresponding rewards.
    • If it's the intent that characters provide all (ALL) the consumables for all (ALL) the game loops for all (ALL) the other characters and NPCs on the server, then volumes, stacks, quantities, availability, recipes, timers, inputs and outputs should all reflect that reality. Keeping mind, that means thousandS of characters per server..
    • If positive and/or negative events are part of a successful at-level crafting action or combine, then artificially, for every negative event, within the same action context, per combine/action, there must also be a positive event. It must not be left to random chance.  Don't be a Silius. ;)
    • Rare/Common crafting inputs and outputs are a mistake, and should not be used in Pantheon, for all the reasons given by the community on these forums and others over the past 7+ years.

    Finally,

    • Harvesting of a particular source of raws should never open up to the public, if it requires combat to achieve interaction with the source of raws. If you didn't participate in combat, you get exactly nothing.
    • Neither Harvesting interactions nor crafting interactions should ever exceed 12 seconds, under any conditions. As skill/proficiency increases, it should always become less/shorter/faster, and be less than that value. At maximum skill/gear/buff/proficiency, it should be dramatically less, as in 1-3 seconds.
    • No raws, harvested or otherwise, should be sellable to any NPC for any coin, not even one copper.
    • Crafting and Harvesting Gear/Tools, by profession or skill, seems a reasonable progression path. Ideally, it would also be craftable, but granted as task/quest/faction/renown/fame rewards works too.
    • Effects on crafting outputs should not be driven by RNG, but rather, procedural/derived/logical/predictable.
    • Crafting Fuel should only and ever be acquired from NPCs via spending social currency.

    Some of the rest of my opinions on the subject are covered in my barter framework. Even if Pantheon uses a coin economy for all other purposes, the principles of that framework could still apply in a hybrid implementation, in the harvesting/crafting context.

    --
    Now, don't misunderstand me: I don't want guarded sources of raws or guarded nodes. I don't want non-randomly placed nodes, or even nodes at all, in the traditional sense. I think they're all flawed mechanics for a variety of reasons, but if that's what Pantheon is planning, then the above is what some of it should be like, in my opinion.
    As others in the thread so far have mentioned, the scope of this discussion is very broad.  I'd be happy to elaborate at length on this subject in a narrower context, or not, but more value would likely come from being more specific.

    • 1785 posts
    November 17, 2020 1:56 PM PST

    Love the responses so far everyone.  Please keep them coming! :)

    • 839 posts
    November 17, 2020 1:57 PM PST

    I dont craft much but i thought that maybe there could be poisonous plants mixed, so if your just clicking everything to gather without much care taken you might end up with a negative effect from the poisonous plant or maybe it spoils the other items already gathered in your bags.  Maybe with increased skill you can harvest these without the negative effects and maybe these can be used to create poisons once the crafter knows how to handle them (has a high enough skill level with poisons)

     

    • 416 posts
    November 17, 2020 3:28 PM PST

    Without knowing where harvesting and crafting are currently headed does make it hard to speak to where the risk vs. reward fits into the system. Certainly putting harvesting nodes in dangerous spots adds to the risk of acquiring materials. Also, if mobs were more likely to drop mats than finished gear, that could also add to the risk of gathering materials. If the harvesting/crafting system incorporates various qualities of mats and components, this can be used to leverage risk vs. reward as well.

     

    As an example, let’s say you have basic materials that can be rated poor/average/good/excellent, as well as, crafted components with the same ratings. For harvesting, when the harvester wants to harvest from a node they must select which grade of material they are going for. The higher the grade, the harder the success becomes. Gear and harvesting skill would come into play to determine the chance of success.

     

    The same goes with crafting components. The crafter could select which grade they are attempting to accomplish. The higher the grade, the harder the success becomes. The quality of mats, gear, and crafting skill would all come into play determining the success.

     

    When crafting finished products, as others have stated, I hope that there is no RNG involved in determining what the final outcome will be. Instead, before the process starts, the crafter would input what the desired result is. Anything added beyond the basic recipe would increase the difficulty. The quality of the components, the rarity of other materials added to the process, gear, and crafter skill would all then influence the chance of success.

     

    A system like this would work to introduce risk vs. reward whether the harvesting/crafting systems are click and done or are more like a mini game. If the systems involve some sort of mini game all sorts of risk vs. reward elements could be added depending on exactly how they work.

    • 21 posts
    November 17, 2020 4:12 PM PST

    I'm for RNG in crafting and gathering as long as there are ways to mitigate risks.

    Just some ideas off the cuff:

    • -Crafting buffs (ex., swing by the Blacksmith guild and trade some special item or guild currency to someone to get their support for the craft, or fight/sneak through a dangerous zone to learn about crafting with a rare component)
    • -Use HQ Materials to mitigate failure risk
    • -Level related crafts (if applicable)
    • -Craft in certain locations (love this idea that others have mentioned! Adds risk, has the potential to promote community via escorts to dangerous locations, etc. Maybe you can get special climbing gear or something from high level gathering guilds.)
    • -Cooperative (group) crafting?

    I'll leave it there because the more I think about it, the more I'm interested in risks outside of the actual crafting process. Crafting in certain locations touched on this, but here's a couple more:

    • -Gather in certain locations (there could be risk not only in getting to/from the location, but also in the materials gathered. Maybe the frozen ore you've gathered inflicts frostbite the more you gather... unless you have a specially treated ore pouch)
    • -Faction / NPC risks - What if crafting some epic sword really pissed off some named dungeon or raid boss? This could maifest in various ways. Or maybe gathering a certain # of moss in this graveyard could anger the undead, causing Gloom to overtake the area but also yielding another version of the grave moss.
    • -Crafting in certain location - Maybe crafting this sword in a high-tier Scorching zone has a chance to summon an elemental.

    Again, just brainstorming. I think climate/atmos and just Pantheon's exploration can/should be a factor of crafting and gathering.

    (Edit: Ugh, formatting is fine in the editor but terrible otherwise. Tried to fix it...)


    This post was edited by Knot at November 17, 2020 4:14 PM PST
    • 83 posts
    November 17, 2020 6:58 PM PST

    It seems to me that combat and harvesting materials will be inexorably entwined, and I'm actually pretty ok with this. Repeating myself (and others in this thread), I should mention that I am unambiguously against randomized outputs in recipes. Binary pass/fail (with, perhaps, a differering amount of raw materials being recovered on failure) is the way I think actual crafting failure should take. I despise Diablo-style randomized stats on items, particularly when they can drastically influence an items value from just a small variation (an item having a range of +1 to +5 Dexterity, to borrow someone else's example)

    As for introducing higher risk and reward dynamics in harvesting, maybe have triggerable events that can give you a sort of 'time trial' of enhanced rewards? A boulder on top of a cliff spawns every six or so hours, and pushing it over the cliff causes it to crack open, throwing some valuable mineral deposits at the bottom of the chasm that can be harvested. This also irritates several subterranian worms that spawn and start attacking the clusters. Kill the worms to save the minerals! This example is also a method to introduce team play, because not only can you just join a group to fight the worms, but having one person push the boulder down while the group waits at the bottom can be a way to stop people from sniping the valuable minerals.

     

    There are other methods you can use too. Maybe a special Potion (craftable by an alchemist) can be uncorked into a pond (either by activating the item or interacting with a special rotting log in the middle of the pond, whichever they think will be easier to program), which causes both the native frogs to mutate into powerful monsters and cause special flowers and other alchemic ingredients to grow for the next hour. Having high-level crafters make something that can cause 'rare ingredient events' to start is a really good way of incentivising crafters to collect their own materials instead of just buying everything too, while also giving high level crafters a use for grouping (since hey maybe these frog monsters give pretty good exp?) The 'event items' should certainly be either no-trade or require a certain level of crafting skill to activate, however.

     

    Having special crafting tables (forges, looms, tanning stations) in dangerous locales for specific recipes is a pretty low-hanging fruit design-wise, but it's potentially really fun. I seem to recall some special forge in the Dwarf lore that could be a perfect example, and really makes me think that something like this is already in production.

    • 9 posts
    November 17, 2020 8:05 PM PST
    I have to echo Thorndeep. Without a basic idea of the scope you would like to see in Pantheon's crafting system talking about the risk vs reward is difficult. I will however touch on a few things I would like to see regardless of crafting scope.

    I like the idea of the harder a recipe is compared to your current skill level the more fuel each attempt will cost. Also a scaling loss of materials. As an example if your crafting a bow and fail with relatively close skill level, only the wood brakes, the fuel is expended, but the rest of the materials are still available for your next attempt. However if you attempt a bow far beyond your skill level you brake all materials and use the fuel if you fail.

    Since it is sort of in the risk vs reward realm, I like to see high end crafting and raiding go hand in hand. Some recipes that can only be combined at crafting stations in a raid area after defeating X boss. Recipes and crafting materials dropping from raid mobs and bosses. It seems far too often that games separate crafting, harvesting, and raiding with a rare exception of crafting your fire resist gear for Molten Core and your frost resist gear for Naxx. Or a couple items per class to get you started at the beginning of a raid tier.

    I would like to see trivial and mundane crafts have little to no risk. Getting rid of useless drops that are normally heavy and unstackable like "rusty shortswords" is a great opportunity for change. Allow players to break them down in the field for materials that stack and weigh less so we don't have to keep clicking/corpse disappear all macros. Then use those materials for crafting. Breaking the crafting system into tiers of metal, wood, cloth etc by level brackets allows for a revolving crafting system and far less rusty daggers turned directly into gold at a vendor and inflating the economy prematurely.

    But as a player who enjoys crafting but who's primary focus in MMOs is raiding, I have to reiterate.. If I can't make new raid quality gear, or improve existing raid gear with crafting, then I will do what I always do. Take culinary skills and alchemy for my own raid consumable needs, and leather working to make bags that I sell to pay for my alchemy supplies and repairs.

    All the small picture risk vs reward discussion isn't really worth it in my opinion if the big reward for being a good crafter doesn't directly intertwine with and improve the adventuring life. Which in my humble opinion most games fall very far short.

    That is my two copper after 22 years of MMOs.
    • 278 posts
    November 18, 2020 3:09 AM PST

    So mind how you think with alt chars in mind , I ussually have 2-3 adv chars and all the rest is for crafting wich makes me spending crazy amount of time crafting. Is there a way to make this not to happen in Pantheon without  setting restrictions? I dont mind spending the time but in most games players feel its a must and avoid crafting just for it. 

    • 46 posts
    November 18, 2020 4:03 AM PST

    Nephele said:

    we want the gameplay for both gathering and crafting to really feel meaningful

    How do you define meaningful in combination with gathering? For me it sounds like: gathering + meaningful = frustration

    My first thought was: Searching for hours for the right node to harvest and then when I finally found it I have not just a fail but also my tool to harvest is destroyed. Gathering is the basis for crafting and I'm worrying that crafting could be too expensive (money and time) when there is not enough raw material to improve the crafting skills.

    I like crafting and I think it should be meaningful, too. I want to be able to craft a weapon which brings me forward on level 5 as well as on level 50. There must be an effort to get better but only at a reasonable price without getting frustrated.

    • 189 posts
    November 18, 2020 4:28 AM PST

    I definitely don't want much RNG involved, as many people stated above it sucks. Archeage is an example to not follow in terms of RNG and being crafting tedeious - but at the same time, it's something to work off of. Crafting was always made necessary in the game. All sorts of resources were constantly used all the time to make oils, and potions that were then used to make better potions or make certain armors, etc.

    I love the idea of crafting bags and storage chests. If it's still a thought to have guild houses or some form of housing to store trophies, it might be a good thought to have resources built into chests. Your first chest could be planks of wood nailed together cheaply - and it only holds like 4 items. Crafting bigger bags was always a really cool thing in most games I played. Farming for the recipe, and then getting all your guildies to farm mats to make them some.

    Rift put a daily timer on important materials used to craft end game items or near end game. Maybe this method could also be used in some form or way.

    I think with fishing you should also have a chance of fishing up baubles or crafting materials. The higher fishing, gives higher chance, the better fishing pole inceases chances, better lure - etc. This could be for better fish or for rare crafting materials, etc. That way, instead of fishing up junk, you're fishing up items that are still going to be used.

    Maybe larger nodes or specific nodes require multiple people to harvest. This would cause people to either call their guild over to work together to get these resources and farm together or nearby, OR they can /shout for anyone nearby to come help with said node. This would allow interaction with the community - then you go your  separate ways and the other guy or guys come across a node and need your help, so they whisper you to come down the road and past a giant mossy stone to the left through the woods a short while. Or they invite you to party!

    Crafting Rifts in Rift were cool, because it forced the community to be good to one another, and share the rift lures, and work together. You get 24 people in a group, people are marked, everyone pops are lure (as its a daily quest you get), and then everyone gets loot from each lure. 

    I don't really have further ideas on how crafting should be done - I've seen crafting and harvesting done fairly well in many games - minus a few hiccups. For example: mining in Archeage - that was hell if the nodes weren't close together, you had a lot of labor to spend and didn't get a ton of resources - there were areas that were dense in ore and bots and other people were there all day. Labor forced them to eventually leave which helped, but it also gave people the option to run around in a tiny circle and be big buttholes to each other. Certain buffs and experience gave people the ability to be a faster miner, so they'd run up on you if there was a fortune ore or unknown ore that had popped as you were mining, and they'd jack your valuable resources.

    My experience above might also be an idea too though - dense nodes for certain ore because its in a quarry. I love/hate the idea of a quarry or nodes being guarded by mobs. If you're out there and killing a mob to mine, and some jack-donkey comes up and steals your node - it puts such a sour taste in your mouth. But it would be cool if you could join a group and share the node/resources.

    There are so many ideas involved in crafting - I can bring up so many experiences to avoid and maybe something that might be implemented or might NEED to be implemented to avoid market flooding, etc. It would be a lot easier to give advice and tips and thoughts on something you already have. I had to stop myself from going further because most of my worst and best experiences are from other games.

    EDIT: I kinda went on a rant here because I have no idea where you guys intend on taking harvesting/crafting as of right now. I might edit this later to bring it back to point more and clarify on some things. Sorry in advance!


    This post was edited by fancy at November 18, 2020 4:33 AM PST
    • 1785 posts
    November 18, 2020 6:49 AM PST

    fancy said:

     

    EDIT: I kinda went on a rant here because I have no idea where you guys intend on taking harvesting/crafting as of right now. I might edit this later to bring it back to point more and clarify on some things. Sorry in advance!

    No worries fancy, it was a good rant! 

    Really great responses so far everyone!  Even though it may not seem like it, this sort of information is really helpful to us because it helps show us how everyone thinks about the concept and what your expectations are based on previous games you've played.  So bring on the rants and the opinions!  They're exactly why I asked the question :)

    • 3852 posts
    November 18, 2020 6:54 AM PST

    To me risk implies systems like the original EQ2 where you could actually kill yourself with a few bad crafting failures in a row. Or, more commonly seen, the permanent loss of a rare item when you fail to succeed in a combine. Thus, a tailor has the fabled rare find, previously only rumored to exist, the Linen of Stretching. She can use it to make a set of +1 panties (guaranteed success because of the quality of the Linen) or she can go for the Best-in-Slot +3 panties that also gives +1 agility because it stretches so well. That Linen came by its name honestly. But if she fails the effort to make the +3 panties the Linen may be gone - a bad failure means all the items used in the combine go poof they aren't refunded. Note that this type of system has the additional benefit of being a time and money sink. 

    By analogy, let us consider the death penalty. Few of us do NOT want death to sting though we may disagree on just how sharp the sting should be. Failure in the attempt to make something could work the same way. If you come close to success you may simply try again with the same materials, other than fuel. But a serious failure means you have destroyed the materials. The crafting equivilent of death. And if you are using a rare or very expensive ingredient that surely stings.

    Turning to harvesting, one could have a system where you have several ways to harvest a node. One guarantees success - one risks failure where the failure may destroy the node or at least guarantee that you get the smallest possible amount of the most common products available. Thus, you have a rock which may have valuable jewels in it. A quick chipping away will surely get you something, and will be fast (less chance of a mob interrupting). But if you take two minutes (irrevocable decision when you start) you may be interrupted and you have invested more time but you also are more likely to find a rare component.

    In general I liked the Vanguard system. Most nodes could have rare items in them. Later they added ultra-rares which were not as ultra rare as they should have been. After the beginning they changed it so you couldn't tell by looking what was in a node. You would see "iron" even if the node actually provided mithril or platinum (no these weren't the names Vanguard used). Group harvesting increased the odds of a good haul in terms of quantity and quality.

    We may not have group harvesting but the word "risk" brings to mind the possibility of having alternative ways for a solo harvester to approach the node with varying risk/reward possibilities.

    I hasten to add that in Vanguard harvesting equipment, mostly crafted, could modify the equation also. I liked that system.


    This post was edited by dorotea at November 18, 2020 7:52 AM PST