Forums » Pantheon Classes

Class Page Change

    • 238 posts
    November 5, 2020 6:06 PM PST
    I just noticed the shaman page was changed. Originally when the new website launched the armor type for shaman was heavy leather and shields. Now, it says cloth, light and heavy armor. Shields has been removed.

    Shamans can’t wear shields now?

    I wonder what other changes have been made
    • 1330 posts
    November 5, 2020 6:19 PM PST

    Good catch on the shields. I haven't heard about that anywhere else.

    As far as the armor goes, originally they just listed the heaviest armor a class could wear. Now they make it clear that a class can wear all the ligher grades of armor as well, which was what most of us expected. (but it's good to be clear lol).

     

    edit: It's also possible that whoever filled out the list of wearable armor simply made an error and left out shields.


    This post was edited by Jothany at November 5, 2020 8:22 PM PST
    • Moderator
    • 9209 posts
    November 5, 2020 6:33 PM PST

    Moved to Pantheon Classes...

    • 1104 posts
    November 6, 2020 11:26 AM PST

    The class pages are not all inclusive unless it explicitly says (like the DL can't use blunt weapons - but it doesn't explicitly say that they can't use polearms even though it is not listed in the "Available Weapons" list).  The class pages have been changing fairly regularly with little semantics like this.  According to the pages: Druids no longer have access to scimitar or shields, monks no longer have access to any weapons other than fists, Rogues have access to 2h spear, DL available weapons are even more limited (restricted to axes and swords) no polearms, spears, or bows/xbow)).  There are a bunch more I'm sure, but they will likely change again before Beta... Or I foresee a lot of complaining about DL's not having access to polearms and spears, monks not having access to staves, and shaman/druid not having access to shields (but every other caster does... according to the site at this time)

    • 1330 posts
    November 6, 2020 5:33 PM PST

    While it is true that anything can change before release, it is also true that there is absolutely NO reason whatsoever for VR to go to the effort of adding new details to the class pages if those details are not their actual intentions for release day. Other than a few exceptions, the armor and weapon sections of the class pages seem to be saying the same general message, just with more details.

    The old DL page originally listed available weapons as 1 and 2 handed, edged weapons. Which agreed with an early stream where Joppa talked about why DL's were going to be using edged weapons. The new DL class page lists specific weapons, and they all appear to me to be edged weapons. The category hasn't changed, they have just given specific details.

    It is certainly true that the image of an Ogre DL on the class page shows him holding weapons that I wouldn't automatically assume are edged weapons. But that is a very old image, and if I had to choose I'd sooner base my expectations on new info posted a month or so ago than concept art that has been around for several years.

     

    Was it ever shown or mentioned that Scimitars would be a weapon in Pantheon, or is it just a tradition from previous games? (Yes, I'm one of those deprived people who never played EQ)

     

     

    • 238 posts
    November 6, 2020 5:56 PM PST

    Not sure why they put in such specific weapon types like scimitars but I’m sure there is a method to their madness. As for shaman and shields...can we get an answer on if they are planned to be able to wear shields? If so, why was it removed? Unfortunately, this thread was moved to a section barely anyone views...


    This post was edited by Feks at November 6, 2020 5:56 PM PST
    • 673 posts
    November 8, 2020 4:26 PM PST

    One thing that I've been considering lately is how VR has been hinting that each class has a sub-optimal set of skills that they can use to help with in a pinch when needed.

    For example we saw in Minus's PantheonPlus video (source) that Rogues seem to be able to help with Crowd Control in situations where it's needed and an Enchanter (or Bard/Necro) isn't around. This wouldn't be a rogues primary role, but he has some tools in his class that allow him to assist in this capacity.

    Likewise we have seen that Monks actually seem to have some abilities that are specifically designed to let them act in a Tank type role, even if it's sub-optimal compared to those Tank specific classes like Warrior, Paladin and Dire Lord. Just read the Monk Class page. It actually lists a Taunt (Iron Palm) and a defensive cooldown (Ebb and Flow) and even a Cheat death (Secret of the Six Gates) passive, in this minimalistic list of skills.

    When we consider that Clerics are able to use Plate armour and Shields, and the fact that we have seen abilities on them that allow them to proc heals on themselves as they Melee (these are no longer on the Class page since the new website trimmed down the shown abilities) it is likely that in a pinch Cleric's too may be able to step up and tank some damage if things are going bad and there needs to be a sub-optimal offtank for a short duration.

    Shaman's on the other hand not being able to use Shields is prehaps to discourage them from ever thinking they could step up and take some hits for the team if it's needed. Instead this Shaman healer, like the Druid healer, seems to have some Damage dealing capabilities and such that allow them to sub-optimally help out the damage roles when healing isn't as much a priority and they are able to melt faces and so forth.

    Dire Lord and Warrior tanks seem to have some extra damage style abilities, while Paladins seem to lean more towards assisting with heals when required.

    Now remember... this does not mean that there are 'off-spec's' that allow classes to choose which role they want to play. Classes are still relegated to their primary role. This is rather just an ancillary utility that helps flesh out grouping with varying class makeups.

    All of this plays into the choices of items and the way VR balances those items in regards to each of the classes. So classes not having access to certain weapons or armour types could simply be because they don't want classes to be able to dip into too many sub-roles and becoming 'Jack of all trades'.

    Of course this is just my speculation based on my observations of the classes.


    This post was edited by GoofyWarriorGuy at November 8, 2020 4:30 PM PST
    • 1104 posts
    November 9, 2020 7:08 AM PST

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    For example we saw in Minus's PantheonPlus video (source) that Rogues seem to be able to help with Crowd Control in situations where it's needed and an Enchanter (or Bard/Nerco) isn't around. This wouldn't be a rogues primary role, but he has some tools in his class that allow him to assist in this capacity.

    I haven't been following Dev info or Discord closely the past few months, but did I miss any confirmation that Necro is the 3rd CC class or is this still just optimistic skpeticism?!?  That would make me very happy if this has been confirmed.


    @Jothany,
    I mentioned "scimitar" being removed from Druid because the old class paged identified "one handed edged" and a lot of "presumed" that was scimitar for obvious reasons.

    • 1330 posts
    November 9, 2020 5:42 PM PST

    Thanks, I didn't think I had heard about Scimitars in Pantheon.

     

    Most of us feel confident that Joppa confirmed Necro as the third CC class back in March in this vid, starting at 55 minutes in.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFs7Iud2gLg&feature=youtu.be&t=3317

    I haven't heard anything more recent than that.

    • 1964 posts
    November 9, 2020 6:09 PM PST

    You have to understand, the necro abilities aren't spec'd out in any detail at this point so anything CP says at this point needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt...even more of a grain of salt than anything else they tell us...

    • 238 posts
    November 10, 2020 8:11 AM PST
    Yeah, I honestly doubt they even looked at necro yet. I don’t think bard has really anything to it right now either. Ben Dean chuckled at the question when asked if bard and necro would be in alpha. He said something like “let’s just get the game done” or something to that effect. Back in 2017 CP did say he felt very good that Bard would be in game at launch.. but that was a long time ago and as we know, a large amount has changed since then.

    Anyway, the point of this thread was why are they making changes to the class pages without informing the community. A shaman being able to use (or not use) a shield is a huge deal for me at least.
    • 1330 posts
    November 10, 2020 9:25 AM PST

    Feks said: Back in 2017 CP did say he felt very good that Bard would be in game at launch.. but that was a long time ago and as we know, a large amount has changed since then.

    Funny you should mention that. The video I linked above is from this year, in March. About a minute before Joppa's comment about Necro, he was asked about what he said in the 2017 interview concerning Bard at launch. His answer was that he "was every bit as confident now as I was then" that Bard will be in at launch :)

     

    Feks said: Anyway, the point of this thread was why are they making changes to the class pages without informing the community. A shaman being able to use (or not use) a shield is a huge deal for me at least.

    I guess I see things differently than you do. They specifically said that this new site would make it easier to add or update info and that they would be doing so more often than they had in the past. So to me, the answer is that this site - particularly the class/race pages - IS how they inform the community. The old site used to go years with little little-to-no updating, and we tended to not look through it very often. Happily, that appears to be changing.

     

    You asked what other changes they might have made. I looked through the classes, and the only other change I saw was that the Druids also lost their shield. Which convinces me that I was wrong when I suggested that the missing Shaman's shield might have been an oversight.

    • 1330 posts
    November 10, 2020 10:21 AM PST

    philo said: You have to understand, the necro abilities aren't spec'd out in any detail at this point so anything CP says at this point needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt...even more of a grain of salt than anything else they tell us...

    So we should believe some random forum member when he tells us NOT to believe anything we are told by the guy who is VR's Creative Director and foremost authority on what is and isn't currently planned for Pantheon, including the Necro. Yeeeaaah, right.

    Because not having the class abilities "spec'd out" means VR doesn't yet know if Necro will fill the group role of a DPS or a CC. Silly me, I think they would have to have decided that question BEFORE they could begin to 'spec out' the abilities.

     

    • 1964 posts
    November 10, 2020 10:42 AM PST

    You can be defensive all you want.  If you haven't learned to decipher what VR tells us by now you haven't been paying attention.  Of course they put a positive spin on things.  We should all understand the current state of the game at this point.


    This post was edited by philo at November 10, 2020 10:42 AM PST
    • 1330 posts
    November 10, 2020 2:10 PM PST

    philo said:

    You can be defensive all you want.  If you haven't learned to decipher what VR tells us by now you haven't been paying attention.  Of course they put a positive spin on things.  We should all understand the current state of the game at this point.

    I've been paying enough attention to decipher the difference between when you debate the facts that we disagree on vs. when you ignore the points I make and just claim that I don't UNDERSTAND things, am not paying attention, and am being defensive. It means you don't agree, but can't come up with a cogent argument.

    • 1964 posts
    November 10, 2020 3:55 PM PST
    There is always a johny come lately to cause an argument when the old ones move on. *see what I did there? Lol

    Dont get your hopes up for any kind of accurate necro info anytime soon. Anything you hear from the devs at this point are just ideas. I think that should be very obvious based on how CP presented generalized thoughts when he answered questions about them. Brad did that often as well.
    • Moderator
    • 9209 posts
    November 12, 2020 3:53 AM PST

    This is getting off-topic and personal...please bring it back on-topic or risk having the thread locked folks.

    • 4528 posts
    November 14, 2020 1:08 PM PST

    As an additional piece of evidence for those that missed it, Joppa said in the the Pantheon community Discord on 9/24/20, "Bard/Necro are on the tooltips for a reason. Pantheon wouldn't be Pantheon w/o those classes." (Referring to why Bard and Necro are listed as available classes on item tooltips) They have been designing the game with Bards and Necros in mind, rather than just waiting to tack them on later. They are just downplaying the likelihood of them being available at launch. Underpromise and overdeliver.

    https://discordapp.com/channels/151137915177664512/151137915177664512/758886957589463101


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at November 14, 2020 1:10 PM PST
    • 1330 posts
    November 14, 2020 3:21 PM PST

    Bazgrim said: They are just downplaying the likelihood of them being available at launch. Underpromise and overdeliver.

    A sound principle, from the Montgomery Scott School of Public Relations.

    • 238 posts
    November 29, 2020 9:42 AM PST
    Could we get a simple answer from the devs on this? Will shaman and druid be able to wear shields? Or have they been removed from the class?
    • 1104 posts
    December 1, 2020 11:58 AM PST

    @Feks,

    I wouldn't expect the devs to answer that quest definitively at this point in development because things like equipment available to classes are still subject to change.  I am still hopeful that they will throw in the towel on trying to get the DL's chain mitigation on par with plate so we can finally get the game developed.  I am curious as to how many manhours have been wasted trying to balance that (and will continue to be wasted balancing throughout the life of the game)...  but ya... don't expect a "definitive" answer to shiled or no shield just yet.

    Add:  I'm fairly confident that casters with shields will be solely for stats/appearance and not for defensive purposes any way.


    This post was edited by Darch at December 1, 2020 12:00 PM PST
    • 1330 posts
    December 1, 2020 3:39 PM PST

    Darch said:

    Add:  I'm fairly confident that casters with shields will be solely for stats/appearance and not for defensive purposes any way.

    Since the Caster's shields are named "Arcane Shields" I'm fairly certain that they will defend against magic attacks. Whether they do anything against melee attacks I have no expectation yet.

    • 1330 posts
    December 1, 2020 3:49 PM PST

    Feks said: Could we get a simple answer from the devs on this? Will shaman and druid be able to wear shields? Or have they been removed from the class?

    While acknowledging that anything could get changed between now and release, I see no logic to NOT believing what gets posted on the new forums or definitively claimed by the Devs, until evidence to the contrary appears.

    VR specificially took shields off of the listing for Shaman and Druid, so for the present I will expect to not have a shield on my Druid & Shaman.

    I also agree with Darch that we are still far enough away from launch that VR has good reason to not answer questions like this one. They may well change their mind, so not making a public announcement just makes life easier for them.