https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGtB7F3ddBM
I expected to see a thread on this stream but didn't find one. I was pretty happy with the content of the stream as it brought back a lot of EQ vibes for me. I had never seen a Pantheon Plus stream and I thought the streamer did a great job. Some of my thoughts:
1. I still think the TTK is a bit extreme for some of the random mobs (wolves come to mind) with a group of 4/5.
2. The Rogue was awesome but extremely OP. I know I shouldn't expect the Bard and Necro at launch (I refuse to give up) but the CC from the Rogue should be for those 2 and the Chanter IMO.
3. I liked the stealth effect and the Rogue skills seemed cool to me.
4. I still can't tell if the environmental effects will annoy me or if I will find it unique.
5. I didn't really see any of the Perception System which is probably the feature I am most excited for.
VR is making a critical mistake with these classes and priorities. They touted a quaternity group concept as a pillar of their game (Tank, Healer, DPS, Control). That was a great decision, bringing back the EQ1 roles and expanding on them. But then they made the mistake of planning to launch with just one Control class (Enchanter). That can't happen. Bench the Ranger and Summoner (If you have to bench any class), get the Necro and Bard done instead so that the Control archetype is built out with three options (They have said the Necro and Bard will be Control archetypes). That gets the quaternity concept fully in play and fleshed out.
I bring that up here because they are bleeding Control abilities into other parts of the quaternity. This is a WoW Rogue. Warcraft does not have a quaternity system, so they did have to give extensive CC to their Rogue. And after much trial and error, that Rogue CC ended up being heavily limited and situational. Whatever we saw in this video was the WoW Rogue on crack with no limitations. I agree with all the people saying the CC abilities here should be moved to the Bard.
As it stands, between stealthing at basically full speed while generating class resource, a resource which allows you to CC at will, with abilitiles that can instantly put you back in stealth to do it all again, makes the Rogue embarassingly OP. Now, Joppa said that's just at high levels with mastery. So? It's still bad design. With all the unique utility a Rogue comes with (Stealth, Stealing, Pick Lock, Rope, Vanish), he can't be a god in DPS and Control as well. He can be a God in Utility. That's why someone plays the Rogue, for the freedom to explore, the ability to steal and pick lock, and just gain access to places most classes can't. They are a top tier Utility class with solid DPS. They should not be Control Gods as well. BAD DESIGN.
Nice stream! It's great that this could be published for us all to see!
As for the comments on the rogue being OPed: Minus said that he was using maxed out abilities (mastery maxed). A normal rogue at that level probably wouldn't be able to do such effective control. Of course this still leaves the question open for higher levels, when players will have some mastery (and yeah, it would be nicer to have the actual CC role classes in game for that).
One thing that bothered me a bit was just how squishy the wizard seemed to be. When running out of the cave, he was being hit by one orc and one boar, and took what looked like three hits before dieing. Also it looked like there was no chance to outrun those mobs, they appeared to be faster than the wizard. Of course it could've been the level difference, I didn't hear what level they were compared to the orcs.
I enjoyed the stream given the context that it's still in testing and lots of things need to be fleshed out so I'm not going to be up in arms if things are off-balance.
While I agree that the CC abilities were a bit extreme for the rogue and made their CC ability almost to that of an ench, I'm sure that the feedback will help tweak the rogue to reign it in a bit. I like the idea of the rogue having a supplemental CC to help the group out in a pinch, but that should have a cooldown closer to 3 - 5 minutes as opposed to 30 seconds and the mastery geared towards increasing the duration or having other detrimental effects versus reducing the cooldown.
If they are pushing the quaternity as the ideal group makeup, they should have at least one more CC in at launch.
Loved this stream. Minus was very thorough and methodical. He has a very professional style with his content creation.
One thing that stuck out was how well the character movement and ability animations are coming along. Animations seemed much smoother than any previous stream I can remember.
Focus on class balance is typically something comes later in development so I wouldn't pay much attention to op classes at this point. Like Sarim said, they had maxed out mastery which makes significant difference in a game where every stat point matters. Also, there might not be a mechanism in place yet for NPCs to resist physical cc yet, which I believe is the type Rogues use. I remember an old stream from a couple years ago where mobs would resist the Enchanter's mez(magical) but could not resist a Rogues physical cc. A single cc resist can be a game changer and could easily wipe a group.
Mathir said:VR is making a critical mistake with these classes and priorities. They touted a quaternity group concept as a pillar of their game (Tank, Healer, DPS, Control). That was a great decision, bringing back the EQ1 roles and expanding on them. But then they made the mistake of planning to launch with just one Control class (Enchanter). That can't happen. Bench the Ranger and Summoner (If you have to bench any class), get the Necro and Bard done instead so that the Control archetype is built out with three options (They have said the Necro and Bard will be Control archetypes). That gets the quaternity concept fully in play and fleshed out.
I bring that up here because they are bleeding Control abilities into other parts of the quaternity. This is a WoW Rogue. Warcraft does not have a quaternity system, so they did have to give extensive CC to their Rogue. And after much trial and error, that Rogue CC ended up being heavily limited and situational. Whatever we saw in this video was the WoW Rogue on crack with no limitations. I agree with all the people saying the CC abilities here should be moved to the Bard.
As it stands, between stealthing at basically full speed while generating class resource, a resource which allows you to CC at will, with abilitiles that can instantly put you back in stealth to do it all again, makes the Rogue embarassingly OP. Now, Joppa said that's just at high levels with mastery. So? It's still bad design. With all the unique utility a Rogue comes with (Stealth, Stealing, Pick Lock, Rope, Vanish), he can't be a god in DPS and Control as well. He can be a God in Utility. That's why someone plays the Rogue, for the freedom to explore, the ability to steal and pick lock, and just gain access to places most classes can't. They are a top tier Utility class with solid DPS. They should not be Control Gods as well. BAD DESIGN.
Rogues AREN'T "control Gods". The Rogue "mezz" requires contunual "mana" burn, unlike an Enchanter, and takes away from them doing other certain things. This has already been shown on streams.
Minus stated that in order to chain mezz the Rogue had to have Shadow Walk fully maxed out which costs 14 mastery points, and he could only chain mezz in this way this by remaining in stealth, which meant he dedicated himself to chain mezzing and provided no DPS.
That's not a bad trade-off for balance from a DPS class, even if the skills are tweaked between now and release.
An Enchanter, Bard or Necro will be able to control a single target while offering a lot more support and damage simultaneously in the fight.
I've noticed they seem to have removed the arrows on the party frame that points you towards your groupmates... We first saw it Here back in March 2018. But in Minus's video here those arrows seem to be missing. I'm wondering if they decided to take them out of the game, or if they just haven't been updated into the latest version of the UI.
Also of note... back in Aug of 2018 in This Clip Joppa told us that if we see a mob wielding something like a weapon or shield then it will be on the corpse as loot. But in Minus's video at 26:33 they are just finished killing an enemy named Uzhead the Rife who has a spear and a shield and yet when they kill him he drops only coins. This suggests that this enemy is hard coded graphically to be wielding the weapon and shield even though it's not actually part of his inventory that would drop when he is killed. This happens many times, and Uzhead the Rife is just one example I pulled out, but lots of enemies they fight have weapons in their hands but do not drop those weapons when killed.
Ideally all enemy avatars should be unarmed and then only when they spawn with a weapon in their inventory do they actually wield it to use against you, and then drop said weapon as loot when killed.
Simms59 said: I can’t say I really disagree with anything you typed. The CC classes should take priority in development.
I think it really comes down to having content appropriate for CC available for all group and raid content. Thus providing CC classes the; skills, roles, and functions that it needs to "handle" the cc content that is inherently in the game. CC should have meaning, thus player agency
Tanks - Meatshield, taunts, damage
Healers - Heal, buff, light utility
DPS - Damage mob, light utility, debuff
CC - Some sort of "Required Encounter Utility". Can be a stat, ability, or mechanic of some sort. Can be any combination of encounter specific; Utility, Debuffs, Buffs, Forget, Mez, Charm, Root, Stun...type abilities.
Fights should require some player agency defined utility that CC should fill to be able to effectively handle content.
Mathir said:They were level 10, the orcs were like 16. I thought that was fine. Cloth Wizard, two mobs significantly higher. Splat.
I agree, the Wizard was appropriately squishy :)
Joppa provided quite a few points of clarification in chat during the premiere of this video. I compiled them and we'll break down a lot of the Rogue questions in this thread on the Rewind podcast today. Link in the fan creations forum if you'd like to check it out.
arazons said:Simms59 said: I can’t say I really disagree with anything you typed. The CC classes should take priority in development.I think it really comes down to having content appropriate for CC available for all group and raid content. Thus providing CC classes the; skills, roles, and functions that it needs to "handle" the cc content that is inherently in the game. CC should have meaning, thus player agency
Tanks - Meatshield, taunts, damage
Healers - Heal, buff, light utility
DPS - Damage mob, light utility, debuff
CC - Some sort of "Required Encounter Utility". Can be a stat, ability, or mechanic of some sort. Can be any combination of encounter specific; Utility, Debuffs, Buffs, Forget, Mez, Charm, Root, Stun...type abilities.
Fights should require some player agency defined utility that CC should fill to be able to effectively handle content.
Agreed with this. I think it's important to differentiate between Control and Utility though. Two massively different things IMO.
I'm fine with the Rogue and Summoner being primarily DPS but Gods at Utility as well. It makes sense. The Summoner is going to have access to all sorts of perks he can summon at a moment's notice, while the Rogue with his stealth, stealing, and lock picking is going to have tons of utility. Because both of those classes are going to be the cream of the crop for utility, I do not believe they should have Control abilities outside rudimentary ones like a long cooldown stun/blind for the Rogue, and the ability to send in the pets to distract as a Summoner. So, I think when they do the class matrix, they have to have the four primary circles of Tank, Healer, DPS, and Control, but they also have to have the smaller circle of Utility to consider. Classes that are top shelf at their party role probably should have less utility, it's just another lever for balancing, class identity, and spreading out class desireability.
I liked seeing what the rogue could do and I thought the pantheon plus intro as to what the rogue could do was good, then followed by the gameplay so I could see itn all fleshed out was very nice.
At first I was not too keen on the "fourth wall" effect of the frost around the edges, but I am warming up to it as an expression of environment- like a gradiated version of the screen going black when blinded, which I liked. So if windy and not cold- windy and rainy and the screen gets blurry a little- with streaks ( as if streaks of rain) thats ok, too. Or blurry upwards like from heat.
As far as the "Quarternity" I see that as a basic rule of game play, from which the players start from- wether they have those particular specific classes or not. Mage, Wizard, rogue, shaman newbies looking to group. No tank per se, but when they group they decide who will play the role of tank etc based on the abilities they have and manage their play style accordingly. That is what quartetnity means in my opinion. Sure, its better if there is a warrior around, but if not, deal with what you have instead of waiting around for 2 hours.
For when you deal with what you have, you become a better player of your class and heroic things are done. Enter a raid instance with a mage and an enchanter and no healers to farm augs? Yes! and we did it. Died a few times at first but once we figured things out- a la Dark souls- we cleared the floor. Next time we invited people and the pride we had when they said it couldn't be done and we showed them was - ooh so nice. Maybe they told others.
Pet can tank. Or chanter is normally CC, but cant this time around, Chanter will "tank" with charmed mobs, so who will Cc? maybe the wizard can "ghetto" CC by rooting and we'll see how it goes from there whatever we do the druid needs to stay alive as that is our only healer and the ranger is our dps- that kind of thing.
Feks said: Rogue CC was ridiculously OP. Why even bring an enchanter?
Maybe so that the rogue can DPS instead of spending the whole fight stealthed. I assume chanter will have CC + dps (charm, DD, etc) so will be a more useful CC than a heavily mastery'd rogue having to stay in stealth the whole fight. This seems like a niche and not the gold standard. I'm not against retooling but this didn't make me think chanters would be any less useful.
snocap said:Feks said: Rogue CC was ridiculously OP. Why even bring an enchanter?Maybe so that the rogue can instead of spending the whole fight stealthed. I assume chanter will have CC + dps (charm, DD, etc) so will be a more useful CC than a heavily mastery'd rogue having to stay in stealth the whole fight. This seems like a niche and not the gold standard. I'm not against retooling but this didn't make me think chanters would be any less useful.
I keep seeing this "have to stay in stealth" comment. It's false. The Rogue can CC like a God while DPS'ing. Minus just didn't while locking down the named, I think he did while fighting trash at times.
Smoke Trick (The Rogue Mez) requires 2 Opportunity to cast and lasts 15 seconds. You do NOT have to be invisible to perform Smoke Trick. Smoke Trick has a 1 second cool down. It can be chain casted as long as you have Opportunity. So, how do you generate Opportunity?
Well, we know Blackjack Kick, on a 20 second cool down generates 1 Opportunity. It's safe to assume there will be other combat abilities that do so as well. Also, with Mastery, simply Shadow Walking generates Opportunity EVERY SECOND. Again, Smoke Trick lasts 15 seconds with no real cool down. Shadow Walk has no cool down, just the global 1 second cool down. You can melee for 13 seconds, instantly Shadow Walk for 2 seconds (to generate two Opportunity), recast your Smoke Trick (Mez), and continue right on DPS'ing. With combat abilities like Blackjack Kick, you might not even have to rely on Shadow Walk to generate the Opportunity to effectively chain mez. It might just be a quality of life option. This is more bad class design than anything at this point. If Shadow Walk is non-combat only, Flash Bomb on a 30 second cool down allows the Rogue to perform this high end CC a little less frequently, but then only if he can't build up Opportunity through combat abilities, and we know he can.
None of this takes into account the root trap the Rogue can throw out because it seems mostly worthless at the current time. Springwire Trap also takes 2 Opportunity, has a 0.6 second cast time, is ground targeted, and has just the global 1 second cooldown. It lasts 10 seconds and is simply a root. Handy yes, but not against casters. There's no real scenario where it would make sense to use this over a longer lasting Mez effect for the same cost. Fleeing mobs, sure. I'm going to assume this gets changed, which is largely the point of this type of forum post, to point these issues out.
So, why is the Rogue a CC God? Because, in theory, he can lock down multiple mobs FOREVER via Smoke Trick and Shadow Walk. And by multiple mobs, it seems 5-10 would be doable. Shadow Walk is instant cast, Opportunity is generated every second, Smoke Trick lasts 15 seconds with no cool down. Nothing suggests there is any limit on the amount of mobs a Rogue can Smoke Trick at the same time. In this scenario, where you, as a single Rogue, are locking down entire packs of mobs, you would have to rely on stealth and not DPS'ing. In the scenario, like we saw in the video, where the Rogue just has to lock down one or two mobs, you could easily DPS the majority of the time while still doing so.
Any which way you slice it, the Rogue's CC abilities are ridiculously OP. And what's worse, is with VR making the catastrophic mistake of not getting all three of the Quaternity Control classes in the game early to develop and test, they are going to bleed Control abilities into other classes, which will either dilute the need for a Control archetype in your group, or even worse, require the Control archetype's Control abilities to be so much more powerful to make them enticing that THEY will be OP and the game will be borked. Imagine trying to cram the Bard and Necro is as Control archetypes after launch, figuring out they made CC abilities too available across the other classes, and having to do that type of large scale rebalancing just because they didn't plan ahead and take advantage of class testing during Alpha phases. Now, is the time to get the Control archetype and all three classes fleshed out. Work from the top down, see what your vision of CC is on those classes focused on that role, get that to feel right, and THEN bleed some CC over to the other archetypes on a small scale as needed.
3 Tanks, 3 Healers, 3 Control, 3+DPS. If you're going to make a quaternity system, and you should, make it right. Enchanter, Bard, Necro must be in at launch. Bench two of the extra DPS classes until after launch if you can't get them all done in time. There is NOT a single good argument as to why this game should launch with a busted CC system bled across many classes and just the lone Enchanter as an option for the Control role. Not a single good reason. Unless you've abandoned the Quaternity concept and are attempting another WoW clone with slower combat. In which case, we deserve to know that.
Mathir said:VR is making a critical mistake with these classes and priorities. They touted a quaternity group concept as a pillar of their game (Tank, Healer, DPS, Control). That was a great decision, bringing back the EQ1 roles and expanding on them. But then they made the mistake of planning to launch with just one Control class (Enchanter). That can't happen. Bench the Ranger and Summoner (If you have to bench any class), get the Necro and Bard done instead so that the Control archetype is built out with three options (They have said the Necro and Bard will be Control archetypes). That gets the quaternity concept fully in play and fleshed out.
... I agree with all the people saying the CC abilities here should be moved to the Bard.
Just because you are unhappy with a mechanic doesnt mean that other classes/roles should be benched. I take it you dont want to play Ranger or Summoner? Pleanty of us do! Dont shout for class exclusions based on your own preferences! Not only that but you want a class introduced that VR have repeatedly said is on their last to do list (i.e. bard)? Selfish!
The game is in pre-alpha. Over-powered/under-powered/incorrect balance/etc. will all show up and be dealt with and I am confident that the CC group will be rounded out eventually.
Mathir: "That cant happen"?
Really? TBH VR can do whatever they think best for their game. Just because something isnt listed, shown or openly discussed at this point doesnt mean it will not be in the future. I agree there should be more choice in the CC aspect, but we are still at the development stage.
I am sure the current list of classes has been chosen for a good reason and I am willing to wait to see what the implications are when I can get into the game. But to start complaining that this and that is not in the game when we are still in PA5 seems to be jumping the gun somewhat.
Also, we dont know how the classes/roles will interact (at least I dont as I havent played yet), so how can we say the mechanics are wrong?
Mathir said:VR is making a critical mistake with these classes and priorities. They touted a quaternity group concept as a pillar of their game (Tank, Healer, DPS, Control). That was a great decision, bringing back the EQ1 roles and expanding on them. But then they made the mistake of planning to launch with just one Control class (Enchanter). That can't happen. Bench the Ranger and Summoner (If you have to bench any class), get the Necro and Bard done instead so that the Control archetype is built out with three options (They have said the Necro and Bard will be Control archetypes). That gets the quaternity concept fully in play and fleshed out.
I bring that up here because they are bleeding Control abilities into other parts of the quaternity. This is a WoW Rogue. Warcraft does not have a quaternity system, so they did have to give extensive CC to their Rogue. And after much trial and error, that Rogue CC ended up being heavily limited and situational. Whatever we saw in this video was the WoW Rogue on crack with no limitations. I agree with all the people saying the CC abilities here should be moved to the Bard.
As it stands, between stealthing at basically full speed while generating class resource, a resource which allows you to CC at will, with abilitiles that can instantly put you back in stealth to do it all again, makes the Rogue embarassingly OP. Now, Joppa said that's just at high levels with mastery. So? It's still bad design. With all the unique utility a Rogue comes with (Stealth, Stealing, Pick Lock, Rope, Vanish), he can't be a god in DPS and Control as well. He can be a God in Utility. That's why someone plays the Rogue, for the freedom to explore, the ability to steal and pick lock, and just gain access to places most classes can't. They are a top tier Utility class with solid DPS. They should not be Control Gods as well. BAD DESIGN.
I don't remember them touting a quaternity, I could be wrong. I am old and my memory isn't what it used to be. I thought they said they were moving away from a trinity to allow for other roles like off-tank, fisher (puller), control, buffer, debuffer, utility to come back to the forefront. They also said expanding back to a large party size would alleviate the need for stringent performance requirements on each role. I think it is disingenuous to insinuate they are somehow doubling back on a core design ethos.
They aren't bleeding control away from anything. From the beginning, the class design has had role overlap. You can go back to gameplay streams from 2017 where the devs and guests form party comps without a traditional control and then have to blend the party abilities together to cover the deficit through monk off tanking and rogue CC. And in those streams you can hear them talk about how a control enchanter would perform better for the group. They talk about how much dps the rogue and monk are losing by stretching into these other roles.
The classes in this game are very well balanced. Do not make the mistake of confusing capable with overpowered. Do not make the mistake of confusing versatility with overpowered. The classes in this game are all designed to reward good choices and gameplay with success. Great Design
P.S. Leave Summoner alone.
-Gottbeard
chenzeme said:Mathir said:VR is making a critical mistake with these classes and priorities. They touted a quaternity group concept as a pillar of their game (Tank, Healer, DPS, Control). That was a great decision, bringing back the EQ1 roles and expanding on them. But then they made the mistake of planning to launch with just one Control class (Enchanter). That can't happen. Bench the Ranger and Summoner (If you have to bench any class), get the Necro and Bard done instead so that the Control archetype is built out with three options (They have said the Necro and Bard will be Control archetypes). That gets the quaternity concept fully in play and fleshed out.
... I agree with all the people saying the CC abilities here should be moved to the Bard.
Just because you are unhappy with a mechanic doesnt mean that other classes/roles should be benched. I take it you dont want to play Ranger or Summoner? Pleanty of us do! Dont shout for class exclusions based on your own preferences! Not only that but you want a class introduced that VR have repeatedly said is on their last to do list (i.e. bard)? Selfish!
The game is in pre-alpha. Over-powered/under-powered/incorrect balance/etc. will all show up and be dealt with and I am confident that the CC group will be rounded out eventually.Mathir: "That cant happen"?
Really? TBH VR can do whatever they think best for their game. Just because something isnt listed, shown or openly discussed at this point doesnt mean it will not be in the future. I agree there should be more choice in the CC aspect, but we are still at the development stage.
I am sure the current list of classes has been chosen for a good reason and I am willing to wait to see what the implications are when I can get into the game. But to start complaining that this and that is not in the game when we are still in PA5 seems to be jumping the gun somewhat.
Common sense. They tout a Quaternity system as a pillar of the game focused on four main roles (Tank, Healer, Control, DPS). There are 3 Tank classes. There are 3 Healer classes. There are currently 5 DPS classes. There is 1 Control class.
Does that math add up to you? I take it you aren't interested in playing a Control class? You want to play DPS? How about I tell you you can only be the Wizard. No other choices, that's all you can be to play your role. And what's more, we'll give your DPS capabilities on an equal par to the Healers and Tanks. Good luck having fun or getting a group.
I'm playing a tank. Period. But there's a common sense aspect to this that doesn't pass the smell test. And I have been around a very long time with MMO development, more often than not the developers screw it up during the testing phases and the games fail. The odds are against VR making all the right decisions based on history in this genre. Your faith that just because there are major mistakes in the testing phases that will certainly get fixed before launch is misguided and ANYONE that has been around the last two decades testing all these attempted MMOs can attest to that.
Everyone wants this game to be great, I do believe that. You and I are on the same team, I do believe that. But, I'm going to point out issues that I am concerned about JUST in the event that this small team of mostly MMO newbie developers might not have thought something all the way through. I'm hoping for the best, but this team is a bunch of very young and inexperienced guys. They haven't done this before. All I can do is point out my concerns to help. I KNOW that being silent and ASSUMING all angles will be considered and all mistakes will be avoided is not the way to go.