Kilsin said:Community Debate - When was the last time that you can remember your decisions in-game having some kind of meaning? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
Assuming we are talking about 'significant' meaning, not really just *some kind of* meaning, I would have to go back to EQ (if we are talking about MMORPGs).
In EQ, you were constantly making life and death decisions, sometimes on behalf of a group or even a raid.
You were often making decisions that would cost you significant time/effort too - around faction and travel (or getting stuck somewhere) - around trade and gear (I never had enough wealth to have multiple or just-in-case outfits - you had to choose).
Sure, there wasn't much 'storyline' choice with meaning, but faction decisions (or accidents) could have huge ramifications for the subsequent content you could enjoy or places you could visit.
It's a *big* part of what 'went wrong' with MMORPGs, post-classic EQ, in my not-so-humble opinion: In a bid to achieve mass appeal, combat was made less risky, loot was made abundant and things like faction became unimpactful.
The attempt to not 'put anyone off' meant significant repercussions, and hence, meaning, was removed from everything.
disposalist said:Kilsin said:Community Debate - When was the last time that you can remember your decisions in-game having some kind of meaning? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
Assuming we are talking about 'significant' meaning, not really just *some kind of* meaning, I would have to go back to EQ (if we are talking about MMORPGs).
In EQ, you were constantly making life and death decisions, sometimes on behalf of a group or even a raid.
You were often making decisions that would cost you significant time/effort too - around faction and travel (or getting stuck somewhere) - around trade and gear (I never had enough wealth to have multiple or just-in-case outfits - you had to choose).
Sure, there wasn't much 'storyline' choice with meaning, but faction decisions (or accidents) could have huge ramifications for the subsequent content you could enjoy or places you could visit.
It's a *big* part of what 'went wrong' with MMORPGs, post-classic EQ, in my not-so-humble opinion: In a bid to achieve mass appeal, combat was made less risky, loot was made abundant and things like faction became unimpactful.
The attempt to not 'put anyone off' meant significant repercussions, and hence, meaning, was removed from everything.
Well said... It had meaning when there were signifigant risks / consequences!
Kilsin said:Community Debate - When was the last time that you can remember your decisions in-game having some kind of meaning? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
The last time? Try never. Outside of EQ1 guilds killing The Sleeper, I've never come across a situation where any decision I may make as an individual ever had any actual meaning, long term effect impact upon the direction of the game. So while we believe we can make meaninful choices in a game like Pantheon, that is merely an illusion.
Back in EQ1 when SoE decided to introduce Frogloks as a playable race and the Trolls were going to lose Grobb, there was a GM event to decide the war between the Trolls and the Frogloks. On Lanys, more people showed up to fight against the Froglok invaders (lead by a GM) and we beat them back handily...only to then have the server go down, come back up and voila..the Frogs have Grobb and the Trolls are now in Neriak. So much for decisions having any meaning or impact.
The other reason why decision have no real meaning is nothing is permanent. Death isn't permanent, most factions aren't always permanently good or bad, even being poor or rich isn't a permanent state. Any decision you make, which gives a bad result, can just be redone.
If I define meaning as "if I go one way, I can't come back and go another (with this character)" then my answer is "never" unless we're talking about race/class selection. Literally, no MMORPG has ever given me a choice that I couldn't undo and do differently. It might take work, but it was possible.
If I soften that to say "if I go one way, I can't come back and go another without significant additional effort (with this character)" then truthfully EQ is about the only one, and even then it was only ever about faction grinding.
The last time... probably the climax of one of the recent SWtoR expansions, making you choose to save one of your crewmates and losing the other one for good.
It was tough to choose based on what I wanted or what a Jedi would do.
Funny enough things like that were in the early builds of the game but too many testers complained after killing thier own crew members, even though it came with a warning pop up.
playing CK3 because that game is literally built around meaningful decisions and not much else=).
Some choices I have to make in that game are for religious tenets; which determine things like whether or not I can declare frequent wars without my vassals hating me, who I marry so I can pass good stats or title claims to my children, and which baronies I directly control; some baronies are better faction-wise, some are better because they, and nearby baronies, can have unique duchy bonuses, and some are better because they have unique specail buildings, like the tower of london.
If VR wants some meaningful decision advice, I can certainly suggest playing some CK3 or Balders Gate.
I tried getting back into Eve a year ago. Player impact can be felt there on small scale rather easily. Save a pilot and make a friend or 20. Stop a pvper and make a few enemies :D Tell a rich PC off and watch them hire a bounty hunter faction to kill you on sight. This is all due to death being fairly punishing. You lose your ship and potentially your implants. You don't just respawn with your gear and a money loss, you have to travel around and build a new ship, find those new implants, spend a long time traveling around for them all or prepare in advance if you are rich to have copies of your ships all over. Death is horrible but has meaning. This will not be an option in Pantheon from the decisions made. :( Saving a PC or letting them die will have little meaning for them and the risk will be low for you.
Every other MMO has no real meaning beyond those that are limited to your character's single player story. Some try to make you feel like the main hero, others let you know you are one of many, but your choices do not really matter. They may change what ability you have or what NPCs you can talk to but there is no real meaning behind them. Some will tell a great single player RPG story, but there is no meaning in the world or to other players.
ESO did that all the time. Where story would impact your path in the story. In MMOs I have found this to be rare. I like when an RPG opens doors and closes others. It makes you decisions have meaning and that really happens mostly in single player RPGs. Being an MMO, decisions that can impact end game play, I think they need to be more fluid but things that dont. I would love to see doors closed in Pantheon by the decisions you make.
I guess SWToR was the last one, not sure how meaningful, but I did decide my story arc. EQ1, I had quite a few meaningful decisions when I was feign death training other groups and guilds so we could take the content. Ummm....and I guess some of the faction choices in EQ1, especially in Kunark and Velious, had some serious in-game meaning for the rewards I obtained.
ESO and some other game. Where stealing was a player choice. It had consequences. With ESO it lasted longer and it felt more severe. The other game used a timer, so as long as you had enough time to wait out the heat, you'd be fine.
I enjoyed those things. With many other games, choices are really more clouded by storylines. But it's not really meaningful, in the end it really did not matter and everyone ended up in the same pond.
In a multiplayer game, other than PVP, never. Sure, in a raid or dungeon, bad decisions can mean the difference between success or failure, or a labored victory, even then a bad decision by one player can, and often is, sorted by another. The end result is ultimately the same; the group defeats the mob/boss/dragon, loot is collected. There is never a chance that player actions will result in permanent defeat, that's just a consequence of the nature of MMOs.
disposalist said:Kilsin said:Community Debate - When was the last time that you can remember your decisions in-game having some kind of meaning? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
Assuming we are talking about 'significant' meaning, not really just *some kind of* meaning, I would have to go back to EQ (if we are talking about MMORPGs).
In EQ, you were constantly making life and death decisions, sometimes on behalf of a group or even a raid.
You were often making decisions that would cost you significant time/effort too - around faction and travel (or getting stuck somewhere) - around trade and gear (I never had enough wealth to have multiple or just-in-case outfits - you had to choose).
Sure, there wasn't much 'storyline' choice with meaning, but faction decisions (or accidents) could have huge ramifications for the subsequent content you could enjoy or places you could visit.
It's a *big* part of what 'went wrong' with MMORPGs, post-classic EQ, in my not-so-humble opinion: In a bid to achieve mass appeal, combat was made less risky, loot was made abundant and things like faction became unimpactful.
The attempt to not 'put anyone off' meant significant repercussions, and hence, meaning, was removed from everything.
Indeed..having the challenges and overcoming them..meant more than words. You EARNED your way through the game, trial and error..don't give up, keep trying. (the early days of EQ I died a lot as a newbie wizard LOL) I love the challenges..those are good memories. :)
Cana
Since starting MMO's in 99 i get very little of what could be described as meaningful gameplay from single player games anymore, for me the meaning comes through defeating difficult challenges with a team of real people.
Most recently i was surprised when i found M&B2 Bannerlord - Multiplayer mode: Captain. Its intensely team based, 6v6 small army medieval combat, every decision every moment has consequences in that mode, getting a solid team together is extremely rewarding, especially when you're 2 down in a best of 3 and get you crap together and find a way to claw back to win.
That's basically exactly the experience i want in Pantheon, havent had it in a mmo ive played since eq
EQ quest. The coolest Troll SK I knew that always did stuff with me, daringly escorted me through skyshrine up to the top to see if I could get the Spirit of garzikor quest. I didn't know the quest or the name so I was just being lead along. I would have done anything for this troll and was secretly working on the loyalist shield of honor to give to him, but could never get the right ashes.
While he was FD and almost dead he told me to hail a certain dragon because I was max ally. The troll and others knew I liked long quests and this also prompted some people to get some groups just to drag me along to the bottom of the hole to do that researching of the pages to see if we could figure out that Underground Evil portal system.
I hailed and this was before highlighted text; the dragon asked me if I was a dragon slayer. Now, having worked very hard to get max ally dragon faction so I could talk to the head dragons and do the nice armor quests as well as walk through western wastes unhindered by the roaming dragons there and hunt iceworms for silks with no problem or get to the necropolis, it seemed intuitive to me that I would respond to said dragon that I was NOT a dragon slayer. I mean, being ally with dragons it stands to reason I am not actively killing dragons. Rather I am killing giants to boost dragon faction. If I were to kill a dragon that would drop my dragon faction, so, I replied "no, I am not a dragon slayer".
The dragon didnt want to talk to me again, his eyes went dim. Nothing I could say woud get him to change his mind. The troll asked me "what did he say?" And I told him, we stood in silence for a while, wel,l he laid there half dead in silence for a while. I was so embarrased. I explained over and over to him that it made sense to me to say I was not a dragon slayer. But apparently that was the wrong thing to say, and the quest was forever closed to me. Now I realize if I had said yes, I could have gotten that nice long quest and since I had max trade skills I could have made a nice katana that I am sure he would have wanted to show off or whatever. It could be exchanged for a nice caster ring,but I would have offered him the katana, first.
ES: Oblivion was the last game I played where my actions and decisions had an impact on gameplay. The changes were mostly social and impacted only how I could interact with NPCs but the simple fact that what I did had some meaning really made that an ejoyable experience. Then ES: Skyrim came out and was such a broken, buggy, incomplete mess that it screwed up all of that good will. I was so disappointed in Skyrim that I never bothered to even try ESO.
Oblivion wasn't an MMO though. For MMOs, EQ1 comes the closest but the only decisions that had any impact were split-second choices made in combat or player-social (guild, friends, etc). The game would go on unchanged no matter what I chose to do or whether I even played.
I'm not sure what the point of this question is. Pantheon can't make the decisions of a single player matter and actually affect how the world turns any more than any other MMO. Even in large groups of players, changing the course of a game as huge as an MMORPG would cost ridiculous amounts of time and money to support. Any content prepped for "future #1" could be scrapped when "future #2" actually happens instead. It's totally impractical. So again, I don't understand the point of asking unless the only goal is to keep the community talking and engaged while we wait (and wait) to play the game.
Hokanu said:Since starting MMO's in 99 i get very little of what could be described as meaningful gameplay from single player games anymore, for me the meaning comes through defeating difficult challenges with a team of real people.
Most recently i was surprised when i found M&B2 Bannerlord - Multiplayer mode: Captain. Its intensely team based, 6v6 small army medieval combat, every decision every moment has consequences in that mode, getting a solid team together is extremely rewarding, especially when you're 2 down in a best of 3 and get you crap together and find a way to claw back to win.
That's basically exactly the experience i want in Pantheon, havent had it in a mmo ive played since eq
OMG, this has been my game for a minute now... MB2 - Captain Mode. Play it daily
Never, Played many MMOs and even SWTOR that promised how you're choices matter didn't deliver. You're descisions just alter the destination somewhat but the outcomes always end up the same.
arazons said:Hokanu said:Since starting MMO's in 99 i get very little of what could be described as meaningful gameplay from single player games anymore, for me the meaning comes through defeating difficult challenges with a team of real people.
Most recently i was surprised when i found M&B2 Bannerlord - Multiplayer mode: Captain. Its intensely team based, 6v6 small army medieval combat, every decision every moment has consequences in that mode, getting a solid team together is extremely rewarding, especially when you're 2 down in a best of 3 and get you crap together and find a way to claw back to win.
That's basically exactly the experience i want in Pantheon, havent had it in a mmo ive played since eq
OMG, this has been my game for a minute now... MB2 - Captain Mode. Play it daily
Me too! Spottswoode is my user name on there, on North America and East Asia servers! I really feel like that game mode would speak to a lot of co op loving Pantheon followers! It's deeply cooperative and tactical team play