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PRODUCER’S LETTER – OCTOBER 2020

    • 59 posts
    October 15, 2020 3:02 AM PDT

    Thank you for this information and for the commitment and hard work of the team, I personally have no negative thoughts and have great belief in VR. Onwards and upwards xx

    • 613 posts
    October 15, 2020 4:53 AM PDT

    @Roenick Since the new Website launched, there doesn't seem to be a way to read the past Newsletters from over the years. Any chance you could provide us with some links to those previous Newsletters?? Or were those newsletters hard coded with the old website colours and they can't just be loaded up with the new website CSS so they match the new site? Thus needing you to manually fix them to match the new site before they can be reposted?

    • 92 posts
    October 15, 2020 7:06 AM PDT

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    @Roenick Since the new Website launched, there doesn't seem to be a way to read the past Newsletters from over the years. Any chance you could provide us with some links to those previous Newsletters?? Or were those newsletters hard coded with the old website colours and they can't just be loaded up with the new website CSS so they match the new site? Thus needing you to manually fix them to match the new site before they can be reposted?

    The old website was pretty much all hard-coded, which was why the new website was so sorely needed. We do have those newsletters on our internal archive but moving them to the new website would take quite some time to do. Maybe one day we'll get some time to do this, but for now it's not super high on the priority list.

    • 514 posts
    October 15, 2020 7:11 AM PDT

    Im not sure how to take this message. Did VR mean to make things seem to desperate? Many forums are blowing up about this new letter. 

    • 352 posts
    October 15, 2020 7:18 AM PDT

    https://web.archive.org/web/20200701094233/http://pantheonmmo.com/news/latest_news/

    Doesnt have May - Aug of this year, but does have older stuff.

    Edit... And some links may actually be broken still


    This post was edited by arazons at October 15, 2020 7:20 AM PDT
    • 190 posts
    October 15, 2020 7:32 AM PDT

    Nanfoodle said:

    Im not sure how to take this message. Did VR mean to make things seem to desperate? Many forums are blowing up about this new letter. 

    I don't see why. There wasn't anything said about funding and timelines that VR hasn't said before; they will finish the game, but more funding gets it done faster, sooner. That has been their line for at least the last 3 years. Nothing in this Producer's Letter contradicts that.


    This post was edited by eunichron at October 15, 2020 7:35 AM PDT
    • 429 posts
    October 15, 2020 7:33 AM PDT

    eunichron said:

    Nanfoodle said:

    Im not sure how to take this message. Did VR mean to make things seem to desperate? Many forums are blowing up about this new letter. 

    I don't see why. There wasn't anything said about funding and timelines that VR hasn't said before; they will finish the game, but more funding gets it done faster. That has been their line for at least the last 3 years. Nothing in this Producer's Letter contradicts that.

    Agreed

    • 201 posts
    October 15, 2020 8:03 AM PDT
    God the pie in the sky nonsense kills me. They LITERALLY said they aren't finishing this thing without more money. So no, there is definitely stuff in this letter that contradicts that. The thing is that, it's not like things are dramatically worse than they've been now unless you've had your head in the sand (which admittedly many have). It's been clear for years that they weren't going to release this thing without serious additional help. Frankly, the honesty and frankness about a state of affairs that many of us have seen clearly and discussed openly for a long time (at least until posts and threads got deleted) is refreshing. I'm actually more positive then I've been for a long time because of that honesty. I still am not optimistic about long term release, but at least this was a clear statement about reality, rather than the standard line that's been unconvincingly put out for so long. Here's hoping they can get someone to buy in significant money and encourage them to hold true to the mcquiad vision. Sadly, probably super unlikely but I'm praying.
    • 190 posts
    October 15, 2020 8:13 AM PDT

    antonius said:They LITERALLY said they aren't finishing this thing without more money.

    Really? LITERALLY? Then quote it.

    • 35 posts
    October 15, 2020 8:38 AM PDT

    Thank you for the explanations put forth in the newsletter. I feel you did a great job in addressing many things that have been popping up on this forum and the testing forums. Look forward to what comes next.

    • 201 posts
    October 15, 2020 8:56 AM PDT

    eunichron said:

    antonius said:They LITERALLY said they aren't finishing this thing without more money.

    Really? LITERALLY? Then quote it.

     

    "Secondly, this experience is needed so it can be shared with potential partners. Publishers and investors need to see what Pantheon is, how it plays, what it’s all about. Several parties are interested in the concept, and now we need to show them that it’s a reality. We are, and always will be eternally grateful for the kindness and generosity of the community and our early investors in getting us this far, but we’re going to need more resources to get Pantheon done sooner than our modest team can realistically do by themselves in a reasonable timeframe."

    Plain english. I already see the argument will be nonsenical semantics about how they aren't saying the exact words "we won't finish without more money" but they said it plain as day.  We can't get it done realistically in a reasonable time frame without more money could not be more clear.  Yeah, sure, I anticipate the argument will be that they could TECHNICALLY finish it if they worked as they are now for another 50 years so they did not LITERALLY mean they won't EVER finish it, buuuut lets not be silly about it.  If you cannot see the very clear and plain meaning behind the actual words they posted, I don't know what to say.

    The CF got them here along with early seed money, but to finish they will have to get real backing or it isn't happening.  PF is and has always been, as many stated from the beginning, the ideally polished moon shot demo/PoC to get the game made.  Understanding that doesn't make you a doomsayer or negative anti-fan, it just makes you a clear headed realist. 


    This post was edited by antonius at October 15, 2020 9:03 AM PDT
    • 190 posts
    October 15, 2020 9:06 AM PDT

    antonius said:

    "Secondly, this experience is needed so it can be shared with potential partners. Publishers and investors need to see what Pantheon is, how it plays, what it’s all about. Several parties are interested in the concept, and now we need to show them that it’s a reality. We are, and always will be eternally grateful for the kindness and generosity of the community and our early investors in getting us this far, but we’re going to need more resources to get Pantheon done sooner than our modest team can realistically do by themselves in a reasonable timeframe."

    Plain english. 

    Well, I have good news and bad news.

    Since it's customary to give the bad news first, the bad news is your reading comprehension is awful. You should probably work on that. I suggest, before reading something, eliminating any distractions, and focusing closely on the words being read, giving time to pause and reflect on them.

    The good news is nowhere in that passage does it say, or even suggest, that the game cannot, or will not, be completed under the current situation. What it does say is that, by securing a publisher, VR will be able to finish the game sooner. It's the difference of the game being released in 2 years instead of 5 years, but it does not say that the game will not be released if VR cannot find a publisher.

    What's really hurting the game is people like you making inferrences from information that isn't there, spreading that around other public forums, scaring away potential players by making up these doom scenarios that make the game look like vapor/abandonware.

    • 514 posts
    October 15, 2020 9:17 AM PDT

    eunichron said:

    antonius said:

    "Secondly, this experience is needed so it can be shared with potential partners. Publishers and investors need to see what Pantheon is, how it plays, what it’s all about. Several parties are interested in the concept, and now we need to show them that it’s a reality. We are, and always will be eternally grateful for the kindness and generosity of the community and our early investors in getting us this far, but we’re going to need more resources to get Pantheon done sooner than our modest team can realistically do by themselves in a reasonable timeframe."

    Plain english. 

    Well, I have good news and bad news.

    Since it's customary to give the bad news first, the bad news is your reading comprehension is awful. You should probably work on that. I suggest, before reading something, eliminating any distractions, and focusing closely on the words being read, giving time to pause and reflect on them.

    The good news is nowhere in that passage does it say, or even suggest, that the game cannot, or will not, be completed under the current situation. What it does say is that, by securing a publisher, VR will be able to finish the game sooner. It's the difference of the game being released in 2 years instead of 5 years, but it does not say that the game will not be released if VR cannot find a publisher.

    What's really hurting the game is people like you making inferrences from information that isn't there, spreading that around other public forums, scaring away potential players by making up these doom scenarios that make the game look like vapor/abandonware.

    The message in the Oct Letter on other forums its being taken as just that. Pantheon will not be able to go forward without more funding. Its also being taken that getting new investors is the only way the game will be completed. 

    • 190 posts
    October 15, 2020 9:45 AM PDT

    Nanfoodle said:

    The message in the Oct Letter on other forums its being taken as just that. Pantheon will not be able to go forward without more funding. Its also being taken that getting new investors is the only way the game will be completed. 

    That doesn't make them right. I understand being skeptical or pessimistic. I've known about the game since the original Kickstarter in 2014, and it took until 2019 for me to pledge because I'm highly skeptical of crowdfunded games (to date Pantheon is the first and only game I have pledged to as part of a crowdfunding campaign). But unless someone has Joppa and Machail's houses bugged, and can hear them crying into their pillows at night about how Pantheon will never be released unless they find a publisher, that just isn't something we can know.

    What we do know is that VR has been open, honest, truthful, and consistent in their message about the state of the game's funding. Trying to construe other information out of their statements is neither right nor helpful. Who knows why they chose now to begin talking openly about seeking a publisher, it could be any number of reasons, but, at least for the time being, there's no reason to believe that it is because the game is in danger of not being released.

    • 514 posts
    October 15, 2020 9:53 AM PDT

    eunichron said:

    Nanfoodle said:

    The message in the Oct Letter on other forums its being taken as just that. Pantheon will not be able to go forward without more funding. Its also being taken that getting new investors is the only way the game will be completed. 

    That doesn't make them right. I understand being skeptical or pessimistic. I've known about the game since the original Kickstarter in 2014, and it took until 2019 for me to pledge because I'm highly skeptical of crowdfunded games (to date Pantheon is the first and only game I have pledged to as part of a crowdfunding campaign). But unless someone has Joppa and Machail's houses bugged, and can hear them crying into their pillows at night about how Pantheon will never be released unless they find a publisher, that just isn't something we can know.

    What we do know is that VR has been open, honest, truthful, and consistent in their message about the state of the game's funding. Trying to construe other information out of their statements is neither right nor helpful. Who knows why they chose now to begin talking openly about seeking a publisher, it could be any number of reasons, but, at least for the time being, there's no reason to believe that it is because the game is in danger of not being released.

    I am not calling them right or wrong. My concern is that VR needs to clarify their statement before it negatively impacts the game. Because most are not taking this the way I think VR intended. I think this could have been better worded.

    • 1642 posts
    October 15, 2020 9:53 AM PDT

    eunichron said:... there's no reason to believe that it is because the game is in danger of not being released. 

    Oh? " ... but we’re going to need more resources to get Pantheon done sooner than our modest team can realistically do by themselves in a reasonable timeframe. " doesn't indicate that, to you?
    Here, I'll help..
    " ... but we’re going to need more resources to get Pantheon done sooner than our modest team can realistically do by themselves in a reasonable timeframe. ".  Better?  Any concern, worry, anxiety, or apprehension now?

    • 190 posts
    October 15, 2020 9:56 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    Oh? " ... but we’re going to need more resources to get Pantheon done sooner than our modest team can realistically do by themselves in a reasonable timeframe. " doesn't indicate that, to you?
    Here, I'll help..
    " ... but we’re going to need more resources to get Pantheon done sooner than our modest team can realistically do by themselves in a reasonable timeframe. ".  Better?  Any concern, worry, anxiety, or apprehension now?

    Funny how you can make it say almost anything you want to by playing word games and removing qualifying statements, but that's not how language works.

    Nanfoodle said:

    I am not calling them right or wrong. My concern is that VR needs to clarify their statement before it negatively impacts the game. Because most are not taking this the way I think VR intended. I think this could have been better worded.

    That's kind of the point, they've already made it clear. To get the game out sooner, because I'm sure they have a pulse on the community and sense people getting impatient*, they're going to need a publisher. There's nothing more to clarify. If they spent all their time chasing conspiracies about the state of the game, then the game could actually be in danger of never being finished, but at least then they could probably find new jobs as marketing managers.

    *That is my speculation. I am not suggesting that is what VR thinks, or what Machail has said. That is why I think they have decided to mention the importance of a publisher partnering on the game, and I don't care if Machail or Joppa want to pop in here and confirm that, because I don't require that kind of validation.


    This post was edited by eunichron at October 15, 2020 11:10 AM PDT
    • 718 posts
    October 15, 2020 11:02 AM PDT

    Great note and I really appreciate the clarity this provides. Ben touched on it at the end of the letter, so I won't pile on too much, but I think this letter would have done wonders for the community about a year ago, but certainly after Brad's passing.

    In any case, I was blown away to hear that there will be a full 1-50 experience in place. One of my biggest fears was that Project Faerthale would be finished and there would only be something like 1-20 implemented in one specific region of the world, while massive swaths of the proposed world would not even exist yet.

    • 11 posts
    October 15, 2020 3:17 PM PDT

    Great update. I'm glad it was so transparent and honest. I hope all future updates are like this.

    • 38 posts
    October 15, 2020 4:14 PM PDT

     

    Thanks for the update, good read.

    anyways can't wait til ALPHA :)

    • 496 posts
    October 15, 2020 6:48 PM PDT

    Nanfoodle said:

    Im not sure how to take this message. Did VR mean to make things seem to desperate? Many forums are blowing up about this new letter. 

    I always knew crowdfunding would only carry it part of the way, which is what I read into it. The initial Pantheon Kickstarter that failed was only $800k. No way that would have been anywhere near enough, so a publisher or investors were always likely. From the letter I just gather that they're getting closer to a phase where they can make that pitch and we'll finally see how this will affect development.

    • 1890 posts
    October 15, 2020 7:05 PM PDT
    The thing I noticed was different than anyone else.

    The thing that jumped out at me was:

    "We certainly are not going to spend years in PA5"

    So they are on the clock. They wont spend years...being more than 1.

    I have been conditioned to not believe what we are told by VR based on at least a dozen other statements. We will see if we are in pa5 next Nov or not.

    I am definitely one of the ones that are part of the group they were referring to when they said:

    "to those of you whose belief in us has wavered, we hope through our actions we can earn your confidence again. "

    I hope they can can earn my confidence again as well. Talk is cheap.


    • 125 posts
    October 16, 2020 2:07 AM PDT

    heya VR

    thanks for the october news-letter. i thought it was very well written - so even i as non programmer/developer could understand it. i appreciate your open comminucation and hope to see more that.

    keep on with you good work. i am looking forward to all the good things to come, eventhough im a bit impatient (hahaha, who isnt?!) :-).

     

    • 41 posts
    October 16, 2020 3:46 AM PDT

    philo said:The thing that jumped out at me was: "We certainly are not going to spend years in PA5" So they are on the clock. They wont spend years...being more than 1. I have been conditioned to not believe what we are told by VR based on at least a dozen other statements. We will see if we are in pa5 next Nov or not.

    Sorry that I must correct you. They won't spend years, this means to me less than 2 years, so 1 year, 11 months and 30 days.

    Had too many math lessons...

    • 14 posts
    October 16, 2020 6:34 AM PDT

    I hate to jump on the word mincing train, but to me, the statement "without more money we cannot finish Pantheon in a reasonable timeframe" effectively means without more money it will not come out, it will be complete junk. There are only three ways this can play out:

    1) They receive money the money they need to complete the game in a "reasonable time".

    2) Development halts in lieu of more funding to completely finish development. The game falls behind the technological curve, and becomes an "outdated product" since development had been halted. Think developing a game in 95', halting development until enough funding is acquired, which happens in 2015, then releasing your 95' game in 2020. 

    3) Development continues on minimal funding and skeleton crew with no clear release date. Funding sources and crew must be able to sustain an "indefinite development" schedule, otherwise, development must halt. If funding sources or crew output drops below a certain point, the project must release "as-is" or be canceled. 

    The way I see it, there is only one way a "good game" comes out (if they receive the money they need to finish development in a reasonable time). There are two ways a "junk product" comes out (if they release an outdated product or unfinished product due to lack of funding). The last way is they just cancel the project. 

    I'm not saying there is only a 25% chance a good game comes out. I'm saying 3/4 of possible outcomes results in a game no one wants to play or no game at all. "Reasonable timeframe" is very significant wording and I would equate it to the phrase "time is of the essence" in contract law in regards to performance. When the terms in the contract are not fulfilled when "time is of the essence", it is considered a failure to perform and therefore a breach of contract, and that is a basic contract law principle.