Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

In One Word - Tell us your thoughts on NEED or GREED

    • Moderator
    • 9134 posts
    October 12, 2020 3:33 AM PDT

    In One Word - Tell us your thoughts on NEED or GREED for Group Loot? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters

    • 1327 posts
    October 12, 2020 4:06 AM PDT

    In a game where everything is tradeable all items are cash.

    • 688 posts
    October 12, 2020 4:31 AM PDT

    RollNeedOnlyWhenUpgradeForMyCharacterOtherwiseGreed

    (btw. Kilsin, I think you really should change this format to "In one SENTENCE" :)

    • 2395 posts
    October 12, 2020 4:52 AM PDT

    Unfair.

    A one-word answer is super tough for this one, @Kilsin!

    The non-one-word answer: -

    Only random rolls are fair. Anything else is subjective, open to individual interpretation, prone to problems and, simpy, less objectively fair.

    An option to 'pass' is all you need, but no one should feel pressured to use it.

    If you are in on a fight, you deserve an equal chance at the loot, no matter what it is.

    If you want to then trade or give away what you won, that's up to you.

    If you have a lucky or unlucky time, then that's the way it goes, and will even out in the long-term.  Randomness is the *only* way that *will* even out and is fair.

    There *may be* a case for a different method in guilds where there is an 'agenda' to fulfill that everyone signs up to, but even then, all any other system achieves is faster progression at the expense of fairness. If you're happy with that, fine, but as someone who is happy with slow progression, I would rather have fairness.

    • 1692 posts
    October 12, 2020 7:51 AM PDT

    Antiquated
    or
    Old
    or
    Exploitable
    or
    Naive

    In EQ1 (original, TLP, P99, emu) and any game with need/greed, what I have personally seen in PUGs is: When possible, everyone chose need on everything, so it was all randomed, anyway.
    Why? Because anyone can use crafting, tradeskills, alts, or 'my guild' as a justifiable reason to need on anything. Why do you need those diamonds/blue diamonds? They're required for tailoring recipes.
    When in a 100% guild group, people passed on everything that wasn't an immediate upgrade for their currently played character, and it all went to the appropriate guildmate.

    If a need system only permitted you to click need if the item was a mathematical upgrade for the currently played character, and all other items were auto-greed?  Maybe?  But.. meh, I am skeptical any developer would have the guts, will, or desire to implement such a fair system, given it hasn't been done so far.  Certainly, if any item was equippable by more than one class, even this is a deeply flawed idea.

    As a result, my preference is personal loot and social currency + NPC's required. Solves all the social problems, makes loot a positive social interaction for everyone, and doesn't cause any economic issues whatsoever.

    • 394 posts
    October 12, 2020 8:33 AM PDT

    Disputable
    (actually so many words you can give to this extensive discussion topic, I just took the first that my dictionary showed and could fit)

    I'd have to agree with the previous comments.
    If you, as game developper want to be in control of 'fair', you want to develop some AI and have it figure out who would be most eligible. Maybe even decide who gets what.. would that still be fun? (it would save time, but as the cost of what)
    Based on most upgrade, not had any longer then others, requirements based on character background (crafting, you name it), which would be a costly, if not a lenghty programming affair (future tenet? lol)

    You could force the loot lock timer for participants and even then temporarly lock certain items based on participants char/class. Maybe even a day and have participants click a consent button. There I'm pushing it already.
    (where I recall assigned looters in raids to lock corpse against ninja's ... seeing who has corpse loot window open, and does it need a timer, anyways, other topics full of that stuff)
    Then there's also social balance and word of mouth for evil greed (and all that drama and petitions, etc ... you record stuff? lol .. hired any (what was the word again) ... game masters?

    If all items get a crafting value for recycling... anything goes.

    • 352 posts
    October 12, 2020 8:38 AM PDT

    NEED before GREED always. (Actual need not perceived, not for selling, not for crafting, not for alts.)

    NEED = The character that is present and that is being played, can wear it and it is an upgrade for them, then it is a need. 

    GREED = Everything else. 

     

    Worked just fine in EQ1. People policed themselves quite well.


    This post was edited by arazons at October 12, 2020 8:42 AM PDT
    • 227 posts
    October 12, 2020 8:42 AM PDT

    Misuse

    It sounds good on paper, but forget trying to get players to use it as intended.

    • 387 posts
    October 12, 2020 9:05 AM PDT

    Indiferent

    But this might be one reason I am always broke in an mmo.

    • 149 posts
    October 12, 2020 9:09 AM PDT

    Misleading

    I would be happy to pass on something that I didn't "need" for someone else that needs. But the fact of the matter is there is always someone who rolls on it who really doesn't need. What I tend to do is roll on it and if I win I give it to the person that really needs it. I check their gear as we are grouping to see if they truly need the item and if they do I give it to them. 

    • 32 posts
    October 12, 2020 9:16 AM PDT

    upgrade?

    • 279 posts
    October 12, 2020 9:16 AM PDT

    Need

     

    • 537 posts
    October 12, 2020 9:21 AM PDT

    MINE!

    • 2915 posts
    October 12, 2020 9:33 AM PDT

    Same.

    They are the same thing: there is no need or greed, only want

     

    The most fair and unexploitable way to distribute tradable loot is want/pass. Everything beyond that is injecting personal bias to favor ones own goals over that of others. 

    • 514 posts
    October 12, 2020 9:57 AM PDT

    Need = An upgrade for the character you are currently playing, or items you need for the crafting profession you do on this char.

    Greed = Any item that cant be used to upgrade the chatacter you are playing but you want. 

    • 154 posts
    October 12, 2020 10:16 AM PDT

    Easy.

     

    • 1882 posts
    October 12, 2020 10:20 AM PDT

    Subjective.

    • 14 posts
    October 12, 2020 10:21 AM PDT

    Master-loot or Greed-based system for distribution. All item rolls should be Need/Pass; all coins should be Divided/Undivided.

    Everyone rolls or passes on everything by default. Any arrangements beyond this should be facilitated by the players. Systems that try to "prioritize loot" can be abused or simply fail. WoW's need/greed/pass loot system is a prime example of this failure, which is solved by "individualized" loot distribution or master-loot delegation. 

    • 2207 posts
    October 12, 2020 10:22 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    In One Word - Tell us your thoughts on NEED or GREED for Group Loot? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters

    Asinine

    My Need is your Greed and your Need is my Greed.  Nobody will ever agree completely on who thinks they need something over someone else thinking it is greed.

    That said, its only when in PUGs that you run into the problem, thus why I avoid PUGs at all costs.


    This post was edited by Vandraad at October 12, 2020 10:23 AM PDT
    • 124 posts
    October 12, 2020 11:00 AM PDT

    Optional

    • 1 posts
    October 12, 2020 11:03 AM PDT

    Neither.

    People don't get it, or they intentionally ignore the intended mechanic. Only good system is random allocation of then tradeable items.

    • 11 posts
    October 12, 2020 11:23 AM PDT

    Never had too much trouble with Need or Greed, the system works well most of the time. Just make it clear before the dungeon, only need on upgrades or very rare items.


    This post was edited by Nelar at October 12, 2020 11:27 AM PDT
    • 740 posts
    October 12, 2020 11:42 AM PDT

    Works-for-me

    • 514 posts
    October 12, 2020 12:47 PM PDT

    ArmoredWeasel said:

    Neither.

    People don't get it, or they intentionally ignore the intended mechanic. Only good system is random allocation of then tradeable items.

     

    I kinda liked some MMOs would lock Need from being pushed on rolls when it was not for your class you were playing. I would love to see that in Pantheon. Last thing you want to see is the Wizzard rolling need on that Plate Chest item with a Warrior in the team. Food for thought. 

    • 1846 posts
    October 12, 2020 1:01 PM PDT

    Depends

    -not, the adult undergarments. 

    usually its determined when you join a PuG, someone says something so its a non-issue.

    in MY group: TS items always up for grab- greed- goes without saying.

    The arguments are good on both sides even to the point of changing my play style. So I would offer:

    If I am in a PuG that understands the inherent idea behind need before greed, which also implies having a mindset that money in a MMO is just there for immersion and not to be taken seriously; in a word, good people, then its no issue.(you...are not "good" people, the person that shouts "Fungi staff rotting" and you send a tell - be right there! and the person responds "I bet you think you can get it for free don't you" you reply, "yes?" the person replies" nop way, im not going to give that up fro free, hoiw much you gonna pay for it" true story. Such a soulslazer)

    In a PuG that does not understant the inherent idea behind need before greed, but has a soupcon of dignity to offer the class that can use the item first dibs, if I were that class I would then offer the item I upgraded from back to the group for rolls, that they may have a second chance at greed with better odds as I would not roll.

    In a PuG where they dont speak, or sell loot rights and split cash with the group. Greed, let the RNG decide.