It seems like the game is being designed around knowing the enemy's casting behavior so that you can counter it in some fashion (interrupt, spell shield, etc.). I don't like that it is currently part of the nameplate, but I want that information to be accessible. Probably just in the target window. If you limit casting information to the text box, then interrupt-heavy roles would have to have eyes glued for text, which would be lame imo. A nice alternative would be to have all of that information visible through the casting animations of the enemies, but I don't know if that's a reasonable ask from the devs. Would be cool to think "oh, the wizard just raised their hand with a fire spell, that means a fireball is inc, use spellshield"...
vjek said:jpedrote said:I agree in principle with the specific quoted excerpts above, except I would never personally argue for _less_ information. Options to show more or less, per character or client? Sure, bring on the options. Options for widget positions, or custom UI themes? Again, bring it on. I would prefer to know more than less when it comes to the state of my enemies and the world, in the combat loop. Especially give the extremely short timers many/most/some effects will apparently have, and a design goal of dispositions being to nullify role specific abilities. In other words, if the punitive design continues, then I want as much information as possible to be able to even attempt to perform my role.... keep the center of the screen clean, ... icons and bars telling them exactly what's going on.
I argue for less "repeted/duplicated" information, for example the enemies casting animations (with spell colour) gives you the information that the enemy is casting a spell, no need to throw it in the players face with a cast bar above the Floating Health bar with the name of the exact spell that is being casted, with a timer to interrupt, you know give the players the information but in a sutble way.
The same with the multiple floating health bars, why have 10+ bars on screen, why not just the current offensive and defensive targets, you already have the party interface to show the party HP, and you already have the target window to show your current targets health, if you need to know the health of other enemies in the fight, just select the target and look at is HP or mouse over the enemy that you wanna check the HP of and have a little HP bar show up in the corner of the screen like this - " https://imgur.com/QqvuO1d "
Debuffs icon are the same, why the need to put them right in the center of the screen, just have them above or bellow the ofensive target frame, and remove a whole lot of screen cluter. like this
Before - " https://imgur.com/qupx4vk "
After - " https://imgur.com/8LCHnnm "
For this to be possible the devs need to designing the game in a way that a players can commit an error without instantly dying ofc, because if all spell caster are able to one shot the tank then ye, a cast bar would mroe than likely be necessary to properly play the game, but if the game is designed around players missing a few interrupt and the tank taking extra damage because of it, making the next encounter harder, or ruining the healers mana flow, or making the group slow the pace down them great! that's how the game should be.
Counterfleche said: Don't sweat the current display. Part of initial testing is making sure things are working correctly, and the best way for developers to monitor that is a UI that displays at much information as possible. Some of the extra bars / info is probably there because they're testing those features.
I would love for that to be the case, but all these videos are showcases of the progress made, not internal testing footage from a testing session, so i highly doubt that's the case, all these UI features are being implement as a core part of the game, at least for now.
Ainadak said:It seems like the game is being designed around knowing the enemy's casting behavior so that you can counter it in some fashion (interrupt, spell shield, etc.). I don't like that it is currently part of the nameplate, but I want that information to be accessible. Probably just in the target window. If you limit casting information to the text box, then interrupt-heavy roles would have to have eyes glued for text, which would be lame imo. A nice alternative would be to have all of that information visible through the casting animations of the enemies, but I don't know if that's a reasonable ask from the devs. Would be cool to think "oh, the wizard just raised their hand with a fire spell, that means a fireball is inc, use spellshield"...
Being able to interrupt an enemy cast by the animation would be the ideal solution, you see an enemy caster with is hands up in the air you better interrupt that assap, if he also says a line of text (in the dialogue buble something like "BURN YOU INSECTS" hehe) you better make sure you interrupt that cast because it's probably and ability that will do some nasty damage.
But missing a few interrupts should not be the end of the world, you should be punished because of it with the healer needing to spend extra mana, or the group having to slow down, but the devs need to balance it in such a way that missing an interrupt of a normal spell cast does not end up in a wipe. (unless it's one from a boss that will wreck the raid and is accompanied by a line of voice dialogue before the cast)
And btw all enemies alredy have some sort of casting animation with colour coding base on spell class, so if you remove the cast bars from enemies you can still clearly see them casting a spell, so interruptin without cast bars is already possible if you're paying attention to your screen
@jpedrote I agree with cleaning up the UI and using animation, spell, and sound effects would be an amazing way of doing it. You lost me when you suggested dialogue in the chat window. I would much rather look at just about anything other than my chat window. This worked for EQ but I can not imagine being happy with a game today relying on a chat window for immersive combat.
My hope is that most of the information they are showing now will be available but just a lot less in your face. I would love it if animation, spell, and sound effects were unique and good enough for this purpose but that might be a lot to ask for?
Sounds like a problem between EQ and WOW players honestly...
I didnt mind how it was at all and im from that EQ time... Honestly, I do not know if i want to stare at the combat log anymore... I think it would be better to be looking at whats going on while you are fighting... I can see the other side of things too... Just because that was the way it was done than doesn't mean that is how we do it now...
There was a stream were I think it was Joppa that said if the players can do it I want the NPC's to be able to do it as well.... That has really stuck with me.... I find it interesting.... well , at least it could be, but we will have to wait and see... The pa shakeout 5 footage over all looked really good in my opinion....
Can't wait to see whats next =)
starblight said:@jpedrote I agree with cleaning up the UI and using animation, spell, and sound effects would be an amazing way of doing it. You lost me when you suggested dialogue in the chat window. I would much rather look at just about anything other than my chat window. This worked for EQ but I can not imagine being happy with a game today relying on a chat window for immersive combat.
My hope is that most of the information they are showing now will be available but just a lot less in your face. I would love it if animation, spell, and sound effects were unique and good enough for this purpose but that might be a lot to ask for?
I was refering to the dialogue bubles that pop up above the NPC's head for important lines of dialogue, not the actual text box in the left corner of the screen
Something like this - " https://imgur.com/a/vuvGgo2 " but when a Boss is casting a deadly spell,
This + animantions + voice over lines + hands glowing with spell effects should be more than enough to allow the players to interrupt a spell ,wihtout needing a cast bar.
Nytman said:Sounds like a problem between EQ and WOW players honestly...
I didnt mind how it was at all and im from that EQ time... Honestly, I do not know if i want to stare at the combat log anymore... I think it would be better to be looking at whats going on while you are fighting... I can see the other side of things too... Just because that was the way it was done than doesn't mean that is how we do it now...
There was a stream were I think it was Joppa that said if the players can do it I want the NPC's to be able to do it as well.... That has really stuck with me.... I find it interesting.... well , at least it could be, but we will have to wait and see... The pa shakeout 5 footage over all looked really good in my opinion....
Can't wait to see whats next =)
Nah man you get me wrong, I dont want to stare at the combat log either, I want the oposite of that, I want to be encouraged to look at the enemy animation to figure out what they're casting based on the colour of their spell effect ,or voice line, or animations type, or dialogue buble.
Something like this " https://imgur.com/a/vuvGgo2 " making enemy NPCs say a line of dialogue when casting a dangerous spell.
@jpedrote I had not thought about it being in the chat bubble like that. It is an interesting concept. I think I would need to see it in action to have more of an opinion.
jpedrote said:Counterfleche said: Don't sweat the current display. Part of initial testing is making sure things are working correctly, and the best way for developers to monitor that is a UI that displays at much information as possible. Some of the extra bars / info is probably there because they're testing those features.I would love for that to be the case, but all these videos are showcases of the progress made, not internal testing footage from a testing session, so i highly doubt that's the case, all these UI features are being implement as a core part of the game, at least for now.
I think it is literally the other way around. Recent videos are pre-alpha testing and, not only that, they are a cut-down release for the shake-out pre-alpha tests prior to pre-alpha proper.
Absolutely *not* showcases of progress made, at least not in a 'completeness' or 'final' sense.
I'm not saying people shouldn't express their dislike for the spell-casting bars or whatever they see, but they should bear in mind that what you are seeing is not necessarily a final design direction to get 'upset' about.
jpedrote said:The same with the multiple floating health bars, why have 10+ bars on screen, why not just the current offensive and defensive targets, you already have the party interface to show the party HP, and you already have the target window to show your current targets health, if you need to know the health of other enemies in the fight, just select the target and look at is HP or mouse over the enemy that you wanna check the HP of and have a little HP bar show up in the corner of the screen like this - " https://imgur.com/QqvuO1d "
Actually I think there are a lot of situations where being able to tell the health of all mobs around you at a glance is very useful. Going around and clicking on mobs or hovering over them is annoying and a huge waste of time, and could be the difference between success and wipe in a critical situation. So, until there is wound art/animations that visually tell me how much HP an enemy has, I think a little HP inidicator for each mob is great.
It doesn't have to be obstrusive though, it can be a very small, thin hp bar that resides under a enemy's name. Even in WoW, enemy nameplate HP bars and casting bars were never a problem in terms of cluttering the screen so much you couldn't focus on mobs, at least not until you started pulling huge groups of 10+ mobs. And in WoW, if you didn't want those bars on, you just had to hit one key and poof they were turned off.
This is all moot though as it should all be toggleable. If you want a bare bones, almost zero information UI, I believe you should be able to turn off as much stuff as you would like!
disposalist said:jpedrote said:Counterfleche said: Don't sweat the current display. Part of initial testing is making sure things are working correctly, and the best way for developers to monitor that is a UI that displays at much information as possible. Some of the extra bars / info is probably there because they're testing those features.I would love for that to be the case, but all these videos are showcases of the progress made, not internal testing footage from a testing session, so i highly doubt that's the case, all these UI features are being implement as a core part of the game, at least for now.
I think it is literally the other way around. Recent videos are pre-alpha testing and, not only that, they are a cut-down release for the shake-out pre-alpha tests prior to pre-alpha proper.
Absolutely *not* showcases of progress made, at least not in a 'completeness' or 'final' sense.
I'm not saying people shouldn't express their dislike for the spell-casting bars or whatever they see, but they should bear in mind that what you are seeing is not necessarily a final design direction to get 'upset' about.
I can understand having these “extra helpers” to aid the devs understand what’s going on when creating encounters and adjusting the difficulty of the game, but the players should never have access to these types of very specific information that makes the game easier, because if they have access to things like the enemy cast bars, or multiple floating health bars with debuffs/precise Crowd Control timers icons above it, during the testing period of the game (pre-alpha, alpha, beta etc) then their feedback about the game difficulty will be influenced by these tools, and the devs will design the game around the all the players having these tools that offer way to much information in a “in your face type of way”
Just think about a group of players testing a fight that involves multiple casters that need to be interrupted, if the players in pre-alpha are testing that fight with enemy cast bars, that allow them to see the name of the spell that the enemy is casting, and a clear cut timer to interrupt those spells, then fighting multiple caster at the same time will be really easy because you know exactly what spell to interrupt, and when to interrupt it, and the feedback from the group about the difficulty of the encounter will be that the encounter is easy, you “just” need to interrupt the dangerous spells.
Now think about how much different their feedback would be if they had to test the encounter without the enemy cast bars, it would be completely different, probably they would say if was a hard fight, because some party members might have missed some interrupts and lead to the healer needing to spend extra mana, and the tank almost dying, or maybe even some party members died of AoE because someone missed and AoE spells interrupt.
The same can be said about having multiple floating health bars with the Crowd Control icons duration above the NPC’s head, think about a fight were the party need to coordinate their CC on 4 mobs, if they have the CC icons above the NPC’s head with a timer, keeping all the mobs Crowd controlled will be easy, they can clearly see what mobs are about to break CC and cast the CC again, or ask for a party member to take their turn in casting the CC because their CC is still on cooldown, and after the fight the feedback (if they have access to the floating health bars, with extra information of the duration of the crowd control with an icon above the NPC head that starts flashing when its 10-5 secs from running out) then the feedback from the players might be that the fight was easy, just keep the Crowd Control up and assist the tank.
But now think about a group that didn’t have these “extra tools” well their feedback might be that the fight was really hard, they had trouble keeping all the mobs crowd controlled, they had a free add running in the middle of the fight that attacked the healer and the tank had trouble noticing that the add was running free because there was not a floating health bar ( above the loose add) moving around and attacking the healer.
These are just some examples of what excessive information given to the players in a “in your face kind of way” (like enemy cast bars, multiple floating healthbars with CC timer above it) will do to the difficulty of the game.
You are right that it’s not a final design direction, but It will influence the final design, because all the feedback they are receiving will be feedback from testing done with all these “excessive information” that the players should not have in the first place, at least in such a “in your face” impossible to miss kind of way.
Also there’s a very real case of this happening with WoW, WoW devs have admitted that all their raid and dungeon encounters (at least from Warlords of Draenor to the current expansion) are designed around the players using boss mods (Deadly boss mods and Big Wigs) because of this they have to make the fights extra hard and punishing because they know the players have tools to perfectly map out the encounter and react to it in advance , so if they made the encounters without BDM in mind they would simply be too easy, and the players would steam roll through the raids/Dungeons because of the boss mods. So the only option they have left to keep some difficulty in the game is to make everything super punishing and super tight in terms of coordination, timing, dps and HPS requirements, etc to compensate the fact that all the players will use Boss mods to make the game easier.
Fulton said:
As long it doesn't get to the point where if there are multiple enemies on my screen, it doesn't end up so congested with nameplates, buff bars, spell bars, healthbars, that I can't actually see the NPCs, then I don't really have an opinion.
I would say it’s pretty close to that already
This is a fight with 11 floating bars on screen, but keep in mind this was an older version of the UI so only the main target had debuff icons above the bar, and only the current target had the bar at 100% opacity, all the other bars are faded out “ https://imgur.com/a/6M1NyQ5 “
These are 2 screenshots from the current UI
“ https://imgur.com/a/T1DyQ8Y “ “ https://imgur.com/a/7qOzFGl “
Now imagine the current UI with all bars with 100% opacity, cast bars under all the floating health bars, icons above all the floating health bars even if they are not your main target and add 6 more bars on top of that because there is only 4 characters (enemies + party members) in each of the more recent pictures.
snocap said:jpedrote said:The same with the multiple floating health bars, why have 10+ bars on screen, why not just the current offensive and defensive targets, you already have the party interface to show the party HP, and you already have the target window to show your current targets health, if you need to know the health of other enemies in the fight, just select the target and look at is HP or mouse over the enemy that you wanna check the HP of and have a little HP bar show up in the corner of the screen like this - " https://imgur.com/QqvuO1d "
“Actually I think there are a lot of situations where being able to tell the health of all mobs around you at a glance is very useful”
I never argued it was not useful I argued that it made the game easier.
“Going around and clicking on mobs or hovering over them is annoying and a huge waste of time, and could be the difference between success and wipe in a critical situation.”
Completely agree, that’s why having good situational awareness and mentally keeping track of all that’s going on during the encounter would be very valuable, and distinguish good from great players.
“So, until there is wound art/animations that visually tell me how much HP an enemy has, I think a little HP indicator for each mob is great.”
Having a mouse over function like wow would be the easiest thing to do, it’s almost the same as having art/animation of wounds in the enemy model, but instead of you just looking at the enemy model, you would need look at the model and mouse over him, would be just like giving a “glance” to the enemy to see his status.
“It doesn't have to be obstrusive though, it can be a very small, thin hp bar that resides under a enemy's name. Even in WoW, enemy nameplate HP bars and casting bars were never a problem in terms of cluttering the screen so much you couldn't focus on mobs, at least not until you started pulling huge groups of 10+ mobs. And in WoW, if you didn't want those bars on, you just had to hit one key and poof they were turned off.”
Well this game is going to be a party game, and most of the time it will be groups of 6+ players, and in the least 3+ mobs in dungeon situations (no to mentions raids where it will be 12+ players and probably 5+ mobs in the least) so with the current UI format it’s already possible to see problems when there’s only 2 mobs on screen (problems in terms of UI clutter)
As for “just turning it off” it’s not a real option when you’re playing an online multiplayer game, I don’t want to waste people time by “artificially” making the game harder for myself, especially when there’s is a hard death penalty. Most players will play without handicapping themselves and turning off these “excessive in your face extra information” is a very big handicap, so I don’t see it as option.
I kinda agree with Jpedrote here. Having things made easier to check and survey doesn't make the game more appealing, it just reduces the mental invest you have to put in it and lessen the gap between unatentive players and proactive ones. I'm not for that, it reduces the need to pay attention with the illusion of making the game less tedious. Same goes with API for threat and such (shouldn't happen but who knows)
jpedrote said:I never argued it was not useful I argued that it made the game easier.
Oh okay, I see what you're getting at now. I thought you were purely arguing from a perspective of UI clutter, not game difficulty. I understand the argument your making. From that aspect, I agree. There are no floating health bars in EQ1 and I like it just fine. Although if they are left in, it wouldn't bother me. However, I would like to due away with the cast bars. Whereas I don't think HP bars make the game easier, I think casting bars certainly do.