I am not sure if anything about this has been mentioned, but what do you guys feel about all the spell-casting bars in the game? (Those that pup up when enemies and group members are casting spells)
I personally don't like it at all, I like it much more if you have to guess from the animation and spell effect visuals, what kind of spell your enemy is casting and how long it might take for your enemy to cast it.
Even with spell interrupt-skills and all that stuff I still think it's wrong to be able to see this spell-casting bar.
I don't think you should be able to see it on your group members either - less is more here imo.
A) I'm really not sure that you would be able to 'tell' from animations anywhere near well enough to be useful unless all enemy casting was very slow and very wild.
B) I'm not sure how 'in-your-face' it will actually be. That was pre-alpha shake-out footage and the first time we were seeing that representation.
C) I personally am fine with some indicator, but would prefer it just to be on the targetted monster so that, 1) It isn't so in-your-face and immersion-busting on the 3D display and 2) So it's limited to the monster you are targeting.
I didn't notice the bars at first but now that I rewatched the stream it's all I notice now. The only casting bar I really care to see is my own personal casting bar, not everyone/thing else's. I hope we can at least turn off the bars to reduce the amount of screen clutter.
Edit: I'd like to add seeing an enemies casting time doesn't really affect my choice to interrupt. If I see a move I don't like I attempt to interupt when possible, so for me the bars are kinda just clutter.
I don't care if casting bars are there or not, but I don't like using nameplates the way they were set up in stream. Hopefully the UI is customizable enough that they can be turned off, and the cast bars/buff/debuff icons can be moved to the target panel instead of the nameplate.
Nusser said:I am not sure if anything about this has been mentioned, but what do you guys feel about all the spell-casting bars in the game? (Those that pup up when enemies and group members are casting spells)
I personally don't like it at all, I like it much more if you have to guess from the animation and spell effect visuals, what kind of spell your enemy is casting and how long it might take for your enemy to cast it.
Even with spell interrupt-skills and all that stuff I still think it's wrong to be able to see this spell-casting bar.
I don't think you should be able to see it on your group members either - less is more here imo.
I commented elsewhere that I do not like the bar in the group box because I find it distracting from player health (which is also a bar that quickly jumps up and down).
I like it. Its a mordern mmo thing. Maybe you should discovered more information over time. At first you only see the animation, after killing 10x of the same mob you learn to see the castbar but not the actual casttime, kill more and you learn to see cast time, kill more and you learn the name of some spells, kill a LOT and you discover rest of spells name and casttime.
To me this would be cool and it ties into lore about our world and creatures beautifully. You know by looking at the spider that it is about to cast web onto you, you seen it happen before.
eunichron said:I don't care if casting bars are there or not, but I don't like using nameplates the way they were set up in stream. Hopefully the UI is customizable enough that they can be turned off, and the cast bars/buff/debuff icons can be moved to the target panel instead of the nameplate.
Me too and this is an important thing for me for most aspects.
I don't want the 3D display of what my character 'sees' to contain a load of 'unimmersive' gameplay stuff - about the only thing I want is a very subtle target indicator.
All the 'gameplay' stuff should go in the UI/HUD which is already, by its nature, not expected to be 'real' and is a necessary analogy for the senses and knowledge of the character.
I really hope there is more choice than just off or on when it comes to information in the 3D 'environmental' display. I want to move near everything to the UI/HUD, not just be forced to either endure the immersion damage or not have the information at all.
Watching the stream again, I noticed that for group members you see the cast bar both in the group window, and under their nameplates. I agree this might seem like overkill. However, I definitely think that you should always know when/what your group members are casting. If the cast bars are in the group window, you can never miss the casts, even if you don't have the group members in your field of view. But for consistency with NPCs I also like the cast bars under the nameplates.
And yes, I definitely think we should see a cast bar for NPCs casting. It doesn't need to show the spell being cast though (maybe it could, if there was a skill "Spell Knowledge" or so and your character was trained in that skill).
As mentioned, it would be nice if we could attach the cast bar for NPCs to the target plate instead of having it in the nameplate. As it was, I felt like the nameplate was cluttered a bit much already with all the debuffs (and that with not even a full group).
I like information to be available. The game they appear to be building has complexity at how we weave the spells together as a group.
Group focus.
So I feel like an experienced player can ignore this but still group with a casual player and be confident that they could 'play' with the group effectively.
If I expect random group members to know all my character animations timing on a variable skill/ability set that can be specialized and change from encounter to encounter and know the timing, then I could be accused of delusional thinking.
Keep the info. It will help me and others to play better together. This is a core tenant associated UI element.
While learning to pickup on animation queues is cooler, there usually way too much going on in the way of other animations and particles to always pick up on the mob casting.
I just like to think of it like my animu with everyone yelling their spell names/chanting while the casting bar goes.
So far, the UI looks like a hard-core raider UI more for function than looks. I feel this makes sense considering at what stage they are in development. I am not at all disappointed that they have things like debuffs, debuff timers, spell casting, HP, levels, etc. I will be disappointed if you can not make it all look better. Well I think that might be in the eyes of the beholder so for me looking better would be making it all less in your face. I like the information but they make it all so front and center.
I feel the like the spell casting bar is less work then making each creature and spell have unique animations, spell effects, and sounds so that we could learn that way what is being casted. Of course, I would love that level of detail but I also would love the game to be finished. Just let us toggle UI parts on and off and mod how they look and were they show up and I will be happy.
Remember that while in EQ1 we never had casting bars for NPC's we did always know the name of the ability being used because we got a nice little text line in our combat log saying: "Soandso begins to cast Spellname".
Of course this doesn't invalidate some people's opinions that they would like to see this info being something your character needs to learn how to recognize as their skill or perhaps perception advances. But don't think that knowing the enemy spell names is a new idea.
Heck, even going back to Ultima Online (pre-dates EQ1) every time a spell was cast there was a verbal componant that would appear in a chat bubble above the casters head as they spoke the words of the spell. People would always get an adrenaline rush when the words 'Corp Por' would appear, as that was the verbal text for Energy Bolt which was the most common high damage direct damage spell (there were higher damage spells but they cost more in reagents to cast so were less common). So even if you didn't know the name Energy Bolt, you always recognized 'Corp Por', and most people just called it the 'Corp Por' spell.
I don’t know what to say, I am heavily disappointed with the design direction of the UI, it’s starting to look like World of Warcraft full of addons, with excessive information that turn the gameplay into an arcade game and results in the game being a lot easier, because all the import information is “in your face” and is nearly impossible to be missed.
With the current iteration of the UI, I am most concerned about the cast bars and the multiple Floating Enemy Health Bars and debuffs.
Having cast bars on enemies is the wrong way to go, because it completely removes the challenge of interrupting spells, it’s basically the same as having an addon that shows you when to interrupt.
It’s so in your face it’s impossible to miss if you’re paying minimal attention, its right in the middle of the screen, takes way to much screen space and draws all the focus from the NPC you’re fighting, you no longer notice the enemy NPC model or the game world around it
By making interrupting a trivial part of the game you’re making it a lot easier than it should be, fighting caster will no longer be dangerous, because you get an indication of the exact spell they are casting, and a timer to interrupt it, a dangerous spell that could put your tank in danger becomes a bar to interrupt.
If you remove the cast bar from enemies you will make the game more engaging because players will never know exactly what spell the enemy is casting, they will have to pay close attention and be alert to interrupt/cc/stun all the cast the enemy makes, and by not having a clear cut indicator of the enemy casting you also increase the chances of players missing their interrupt window, and getting penalized with extra damage to the tank or the party.
Having multiple enemy floating health bars will also make the gameplay easier and less immersive, first of all floating health bars overpower the entire screen, becoming one of the only relevant things that a players sees (go see it for yourself, the only thing you will focus on during combat is the huge health bar in the middle of the screen and the debuffs on top of it).
It draws so much attention that you barely notice the 3D enemy NPC models, it also makes the game world feel less important because the center of your screen is packed with useful information so everything else around it become a second though and kind of irrelevant.
Multiple floating health bars also make fighting multiple enemies a really easy thing to manage, because you get a big floating healthbar that shows you the exact position of the enemy NPC, so if you lose aggro you can see the bar move right away, if they’re running you can see it right away, if an add joins the fight you can see it right away,
This makes situational awareness not that important, because you have huge floating healthbars that will communicate to you the exact position of the enemies and what they are doing.
The debuffs above the floating health bar are also a big problem, because they appear in all the targets you are currently fighting.
This makes things like keeping CC up really easy to manage, you will no longer need to cycle the targets to check if your CC on the enemy is still up or about to run out, you can simply look at it, making the game easier and reducing the possibilities of miss timing a CC and allowing and add to attack the party,
It also makes multi-dotting a lot easier because you can check your dots on 2 target at the same time. And again it completely overpowers the game world, it’s literally one of the only things you will notice during combat.
To solve these problem they should limit Floating Health bars to your current offensive and defensive target, so during combat you will only ever have 2 floating health bars on the screen, one for your current offensive target, and another for your current defensive (party member) target. Debbufs would also be limited to your current offensive and defensive target. And they should remove enemy cast bar completely for the reason explained above.
Something like this (I know its old pre-alpha pics but it’s still relevant):
Before - https://imgur.com/qupx4vk
After - https://imgur.com/8LCHnnm
The enemy you are targeting has a red name to signal your current target, the debuffs are move to the top of the target frame.
The party member you are targeting changes colour to a deeper blue, in this case its “Machail” to signal your current Defensive target
Now I know people are saying “you can choose to turn it off if you don’t like it” etc, but the reality is that Pantheon is a group oriented game, that will be challenging and will have a death penalty, so most players will take every advantage they can to avoid failing, because again there’s a death penalty, so saying “you can choose turn it off” is not accurate because handicapping yourself is not something you do in a party game, I will not make the game harder for me and risk wiping the party (and wasting my friends time) because I want to play without cast bars or any other UI element, I will use what’s most effective so the “choice” is not really there.
TL:DR - UI is way to clutered and it makes the combat way to easy, all the information is stamped in the middle of the screen and all the UI elements in the middle of the screen overpower the game world, becoming the only thing you actually loot at or pay atention to.
jpedrote said:I don’t know what to say, I am heavily disappointed with the design direction of the UI, it’s starting to look like World of Warcraft full of addons, with excessive information that turn the gameplay into an arcade game and results in the game being a lot easier, because all the import information is “in your face” and is nearly impossible to be missed.
Dude. It's footage from a pre-alpha shake-out release. There was even some info that specifically said "GM Info".
Your feedback is great - I agree with most - but no need to be "disappointed with the design direction" when these testing builds don't really show "the design direction".
disposalist said:Dude. It's footage from a pre-alpha shake-out release. There was even some info that specifically said "GM Info".
Your feedback is great - I agree with most - but no need to be "disappointed with the design direction" when these testing builds don't really show "the design direction".
QFT
disposalist said:jpedrote said:I don’t know what to say, I am heavily disappointed with the design direction of the UI, it’s starting to look like World of Warcraft full of addons, with excessive information that turn the gameplay into an arcade game and results in the game being a lot easier, because all the import information is “in your face” and is nearly impossible to be missed.
Dude. It's footage from a pre-alpha shake-out release. There was even some info that specifically said "GM Info".
Your feedback is great - I agree with most - but no need to be "disappointed with the design direction" when these testing builds don't really show "the design direction".
I disagree, the user interface is something that is in development and I believe that it can all change because we are still in pre-alpha. But there is a clear design direction (in the User interface department) in the last 2 years of development that is pushing the game to be played more like world of Warcraft (in terms of User Interface), with lots of UI elements and excessive information given to the players. This will eventually lead to a watch the UI type of gameplay, and it will make the game easier as a result.
We can see in the stream from 22 march of 2018 with jim lee that the User Interface was pretty clean and minimal, only your current offensive target displayed a Floating Health bar and the buffs/debuffs icons also only showed in your current target, This would be the model to go for and pantheon should revert back to this to keep the focus on the game world instead of User interface elements.
You can see the party fighting 3 targets, but only the current offensive target shows the Floating Health Bar – “ https://imgur.com/a/ijDDS1h “
You can see that one enemy is rooted, but there is no Icon indicator above the enemy NPC, meaning you need to focus on the game world (aka the huge magical pink net around the NPC’s feet) to notice that he is rooted, instead of having an Icon telling you what is happening you look at the game world and figure it out by yourself. – “ https://imgur.com/a/tP90Vr8 “
Then in the multiple black rose keep streams from April 2018 we see some tweaks to the User Interface, and some non-essential icons start popping up
Here we can see 3 target and 2 of them are CC’ed by mezzes, in this version of the game you could only see debuff icons outside of your current target if you were the players casting those debuffs, so the mezzes do not appear as icons above the enemies heads, because they were applied by the enchanter not the rogue – “ https://imgur.com/a/KGWCzmS ”
Here we can see 3 enemies, 1 floating health bar, 1 target is mezzed displayed by the blue effect around its head, the other enemy (Lt commander) is CC’ed by the rogue and because it was the rogue casting the debuffs he can see the icon even though it’s not is current offensive target, “ https://imgur.com/a/pWena2y “
This makes keeping track of CC a lot easier and reduces the need for good situational awareness, also the debuff icons start flashing when they are about to run off, so the game is reminding you that you need to re-apply the CC again, removing the need to pay close attention to your CC targets and making the game easier to manage and removing the danger of missing a CC.
Then in the stream of CohhCarnage of 5 August 2018, we see that now Crowd Control casted by other players are displayed as icons above the enemies head even if you are not targeting them, again reducing the need for good situational awareness and reducing the need to look at the game world.
Here we can see that the North Tusk Lookout is mezzed, displayed by the purple effect in front of his head, but there’s also an Icon displaying the same information
- “ https://imgur.com/a/lnuEDQH “
Then again with CohhCarnage in the Amberfaet stream from 13 December of 2019 we see the implementation of multiple floating health bars that completely fill up the screen, taking all the focus from the game world, in these pics when looking at the middle of the screen your attention is completely drawn to the cluster of floating health bars, the 3D models of the players and NPCs almost become a second or third thought, being really hard to notice because they are not relevant information in comparison to the prominent floating health bars.
- “ https://imgur.com/a/a3JooVp ”
- “ https://imgur.com/a/6M1NyQ5 ”
And now in the lastest stream we can see the evolution of the bloated User interface once again, now we have Floating Health bars for all party members, floating health bars for all enemy NPC’s, cast bars for all Party members and Cast bars for all enemy NPC’s, and also Debuff icons for all enemies NPCS (above the floating health bar) and debuff and buff icons above the Floating health bars of all party players.
By this pace the game will be looking like wow when there are more than 5 characters on screen.
In this pic we can see the party fighting 2 enemies, they both have floating health bars above their heads, and there is a cast bar for the enemy NPC making it really easy to interrupt the spell, also notice how bloat the screen looks even though there are only 5 characters on screen, image the screen when it’s a full party against 3-4 enemies “ https://imgur.com/a/7qOzFGl ” it will be a huge mess.
In this pic we can see the cast bar for the enemy and the cast bar for the party member, we can see multiple floating health bars, and again this is all unnecessary information that just makes the screen really bloated and takes all the focus away from the game world.
“ https://imgur.com/a/T1DyQ8Y “
Lets dial it back a bit, keep the game interesting and limit the amount of repeated information on screen, keep the center of the screen clean, and encourage the players to pay more attention to the game world instead of relying/having icons and bars telling them exactly what's going on.
jpedrote said:I agree in principle with the specific quoted excerpts above, except I would never personally argue for _less_ information. Options to show more or less, per character or client? Sure, bring on the options. Options for widget positions, or custom UI themes? Again, bring it on. I would prefer to know more than less when it comes to the state of my enemies and the world, in the combat loop. Especially give the extremely short timers many/most/some effects will apparently have, and a design goal of dispositions being to nullify role specific abilities. In other words, if the punitive design continues, then I want as much information as possible to be able to even attempt to perform my role.... keep the center of the screen clean, ... icons and bars telling them exactly what's going on.