GeneralReb said:Yes it should. In newer games where the stealthed rogue is represented as their character crouching over with shadowy graphics I think it looks lame. ...
Yea I went and clicked through the Amberfaet dev play stream a bit and even at the very beginning you see Kilsin in the semi-transparent Stealth state.....
At 27:08 you can see Kilsin go from normal to stealth very clearly....
Kind of a bummer because I think even for group members it is odd immersion wise that we can see him but mobs can not. As far as practical gameplay mechanics, what is the reason for it? Why do I need to see the rogue stealthing away? To go after his corpse if he dies I know which way he went? If that is the reason then why can't they communicate "I went over the bridge and died just inside the doorway you will find my corpse to drag" as apposed to the translucent rogue?
@GeneralReb Join me on this short walk in my mind here. When you put your hood on of your jacket, does that make you unrecognisible/invisibile to the people you were standing next to prior to that action? If your hooded self walks away into the dark of night, you will become less and less visible to the people remaining behind. Your less recognisible to most, but didn't vanish. And as you walk closer to others, they might not make out straight away that it's GeneralReb who's closing in. The other way around; you approach your friends from a distance. You walk along the shaded side of a tall building. As you come closer you break away from the building's shadows. Your figure is becoming more noticeable (at least, if your friends are actually looking at the direction your coming from). But your hood and general method of clothing doesn't enable them to make out who the approaching figure is. As your stand next to them with your hood on, your friends can see and recognize you. Your hood doesn't need to be removed for them in order to distinguish that it's you who's standing next to them.
Let's take it back to a fantasy world: a player character-scout is sent out to do what he does best. That player can choose to walk in the middle of the road or in the darkest spots of the shadows. (already you're seeing where I'm getting with this right?) A stealthy scout would be (how to put this correctly) perceived as less translucent and more "hidden" depending on their surroundings and where they walk/stand.
Your remark of seeing Kilsing as a stealthy scout is valid. Considering that he's walking in front of the group, in the middle of the road, in a barren wintertheme dungeon, with a lot of white background. Yes, he is very visible still. (Join me while I'm playing a scout, you'll never see me right up front but always at the back, the side or even at some distance away/ahead from the group.) I just wonder, how that same Kilsin would be seen in a dark dense forest, where only spots of light have reached the ground after breaking through the canopy. Where no players are actually adding light to the surroundings. Don't forget, darkness is going to be a thing in this game! But how are you going to show a stealthy scout for pledgers in a darkened room?
Darn, now you've made me think about how frustrated I am with players always tailing the scouts of the group and being surprised the mobs ambushed them. Give the scouts some room to work, darn it!
@Barin999 I know what you mean, re. D&D thief stealth, *but* it has always been different in computer RPGs. 'Stealth' for rogues in EQ and others has almost always been on a par, or even more powerful than magical invisibility and Pantheon's equivalent is: -
Shadow Walk
Become a living shadow, making it difficult for most creatures to detect you
which sounds to me more like a mystical/magical ability than just pulling up your hood and leaning into the shadows.
I'm kinda split, though. Even a 'living shadow' wouldn't be 'invisible' and a rogue's group would know what to look for, so it makes sense to be able to see the rogue, even if as a weird 'shadow'.
If, however, that Shadow Walk is, in effect, invisibility, as far as the game is concerned (and will no doubt operate even in full daylight) then it ought to have both the benefits and the drawbacks. The 'hidden' effect should work on party members too, and the rogue should not be 'visible' so that the others will perhaps walk up past him when he's scouting and told them to stay behind, or should not know where his corpse is even though he died on the floor below them.
I am glad to see there seem to be a consistent agreement that if a person is invisible, they should eb invisible. I hope Pantheon devs are reading this and considering changing how it is currently portrayed in game.
As other have mentioned I do feel it is odd that a rouges stealth is better than invis in most games I have played. I get the being quiet part but it seems to me that even if that was the case would it not at least be possible for a wizard with invis to be better if they also made the same effort at being quiet? What if you casted invis on a rouge would this not make the rouge even harder to detect even if they did not use stealth? I mean invisible seems better than like a shadow to me. I do not think everything in a game needs to be realistic but when possible without negative impacts on the game play it does help with immersion.
Re. rogue stealth, there is also the analogous nature of the interface to consider. How does the game represent the rogue being so 'sneaky' that they are 'ignored' by you (and monsters).
The lore of their ability might not be supernatural or magical, but near super-human physical ability. If it is explained as the combined power of physical adaptation, disguise, flexibility, etc, then how is a 3D representation of the world to 'display' that?
Even 'magical' invisibility might not be 'displayed' as utter invisibility. If the 'spell' is mind-effecting, not something that bends lightwaves around you, then you may not be utterly 'invisible', you are just being 'ignored'. Come to think of it, even if the spell bends light, there could be artifacts that are visible and become 'noticed' if the viewer hears you, or you get to a certain range, or they concentrate harder or whatever.
I think it's tempting for people to think of 'invisibility' in very absolute terms, where there's no reason that it has to be regarded that way.
Invisibility (and stealth) can be as limited or complete and as interesting and nuanced as VR want to make it.
As for my *personal* preference, though, I expressed some above, but overall, I'd like it to be something that is more nuanced than games often portray it and to have more aspect of risk and reward than is dictated by simply either being complete disappearance or appearance; success or failure.
Maybe even if a monster can 'see through' your invisibility/stealth, you still gain an AC bonus? Maybe one monster seeing through it doesn't mean it fails utterly for everyone? Maybe magical invisibility also imparts silence? Maybe that means no spell-casting is possible, though, until cancelled? Maybe stealth *is* better than magical invisibility, but only to certain creatures? Etc.
It is not fair an NPC can see through stealth and invisibility always but a player cannot
Stealth and hide should not be 100% invisible, but something like 99% and the 1% (or even smaller) some bending of light (you could choose to depend that on skilll level) and I'd suggest to have invisibilty spell be countered by see invisibility (or be made more visible depending on level)
This way NPC's can act with invis and stealth too against players and hopefully vice versa.
chenzeme said:I think illusions could be put to better use too. These could also be non magical and magical and be detectable through the same mechanisms as stealth and see invis, i.e. perception checks and "see through illusion".
I remember when EQ2 made Illusions spells a mute point, because NPCs would see right through them, completely made the Illusions spells worthless with that move. There should be limits vs. high level NPCs and the like.
I would love to see stealth/invis have a gradual effect. The more perception you have vs the stealth skill or invis level, the more you could clearly see(less ghost effect). It would still be hard to see/detect a stealthed creature in shadows even if you could see a faded image due to high perception or spell. Ideally the stealth/invis ghost effect would vary from completely unseen to totally visable depending on distance/lighting/armor type vs perception.
I would say that if players are going to be weaker than mobs they shouldn't feel stronger than mobs in any way without very good reason. Invis should make you invisible to everyone, stealth should make you quiet to everyone and maybe invisible at range, grouped or not.
Naturally, players should have ways to get past this, like perception or "see invis" spells.
I even think that illusion spells or feign death should work on players.
All of it together pushes for slightly more tactical communication and guesswork, which I personally enjoy for immersion.