I seem to recall EQ in the early days would have people outside your group be able to completely disappear with invis. I am not sure about stealth. I am sure people could find way to make this a bad idea but I really think it adds a lot.
I am wondering what others think?
bigdogchris said:Agreed.Yes, it should. However, based on what we've seen they are not going to do this in Pantheon. I hope it changes.
@ bigdogchris I agree that dose seem the way they currently are headed. But it is still fun to talk about and the good news is it would be reasonably simple for them to alter course on this.
@ vjek as a wizard in EQ if felt invise lost almost all uses on mobs very early on. All later content could see though invise. I know stealth had more use in later levels. Vanguard also had lots of areas invise would not work. I am not convinced that is a bad thing though.
I've seen a lot of discussion about invis and the general concensus was that invis should be quite reliable against mundane creatures while 'magical' type creatures would be far more likely to see through invis. And, of course, if a disposition allows the NPC to see through invis/stealth, they should see through it. We went so far as to say that if caster NPCs have access to See Invis spells they should be using that. Lastly, we felt that invis should not have a set duration, only a minimum duration but random after that. You should never feel fully safe with invis, only safer.
I thought I remember the devs talking about invi/sneak awhile back where their intention was to make invis/sneak more tactile and less safe. By this I mean the position of the mob will increase/decrease the ability of it to "see" the person. So if you were sneaking through a dungeon you would have to walk behind them and not directly in front of them to avoid detection. Not sure if dispositions where part of the discussion or not. Liek I said was awhile ago that was talked about.
starblight said:I seem to recall EQ in the early days would have people outside your group be able to completely disappear with invis. I am not sure about stealth. I am sure people could find way to make this a bad idea but I really think it adds a lot.
I am wondering what others think?
Oh forgot to mention that in EQ, if someone was invis you didn't see them even if they were in your group. You had to have see invis to see them regardless. This is how I would like it in Pantheon.
starblight said:as a wizard in EQ if felt invise lost almost all uses on mobs very early on. All later content could see though invise. I know stealth had more use in later levels. Vanguard also had lots of areas invise would not work. I am not convinced that is a bad thing though.
Really? My wizard on P1999 is only level 42, but I use invis -all the time-, and it works almost all the time.
Alexander said:starblight said:as a wizard in EQ if felt invise lost almost all uses on mobs very early on. All later content could see though invise. I know stealth had more use in later levels. Vanguard also had lots of areas invise would not work. I am not convinced that is a bad thing though.
Really? My wizard on P1999 is only level 42, but I use invis -all the time-, and it works almost all the time.
It is important for me to note it has been some time since I played EQ and the last time I did it was a custom EQ server I setup. I could just be full of it
In EQ(P99/Classic Variant) - Invis will make you invisible to everyone, even yourself, if you do not have a see invis buff/item on you. Some NPCs and generally the undead can see through invis.
I think this actually makes the most sense too, not some conditional - if your in a group, not in a group, around friends whatever..just simple to the point, your invis or your not and you can see invis or you can't.
In addition EQ has more than one type of Invis: There is the standard Invis, stealth/sneak/hide and Invis vs Undead
- working as intended you can only be Invis or Invis vs Undead
- stealth can usually invis vs living and undead if your a rouge - in addition to being able to sneak past see invis mobs.
- sneak(Ability) can be used by certain races/classes (makes you walk slowly, have to remain behind agro mobs)
- hide(Ability) works mostly like an invis, but your stuck in place.
One emergent trick people came up with is 2 people casting Invis and Invis vs Undead at the same time on the same target
- since the check against the target for a pre-existing invis was done before the cast started you could get both types of invis at the same time.
Another sudo stealth tactic is illusions, allowing you to hid in plain sight when your faction may not align well with the NPC you are trying to sneak past.
Hopefully Pantheon can have that much diversity in invis/stealth mechanics and possibly expand on it/tweak it to make it better.
I think it's really the accumulation of a lot of those subtleties which made EQ great.
(And the writing)
I think in a PvP scenario a rogue should be invisible to other players, at least until the first strike. In a PvE game it shouldn't really matter one way or the other.
Also if invisiblility is a thing than character perception should also be a thing. Some characters will have higher perception than others. If a characters perception is high enough they should be able to detect even a rogue in stealth. Simple old D&D skill check, Stealth vs. Perception should do.
Ezrael said: I also think perception should have nothing to do with it, perception is about noticing things in the world, not perceiving invisible beings under magical spells.
True. But being invisible doesn't mean that you do not make sound when you walk or have some really powerful body oder because you haven't bathed in 3 or 4 days. Ever seen "Blind Fury" or "Book of Eli"? There is more to perception than just seeing.
Ezrael said: I also think perception should have nothing to do with it, perception is about noticing things in the world, not perceiving invisible beings under magical spells.
As a caster I would think they can also feel a magical aura as that is their bread and butter. A warrior on the other hand wouldn't feel a thing, so a mage might perceive there is a magical presense.
Just like undead would see you. They probably don't see you physially but see your soul which is what they are after. Bit like in Lord of the Rings when Frodo would put the ring on and the vision changes.
I feel invisibility would be a weak gimmick if it was beeing seen throught by friendly targets, you should still do step sounds but not be lookable at.
I'm not that fond of stealth having invisibility levels as it's not how stealth is supposed to be (blend in environment, hide in shadow, etc...) and it's just a big simplification of how to express stealthyness.
To answer the thread question; I dont see why a stealthed/invisible creature should appear to players outside of the group. Yup, make them invisible.
I do think the perception system should be made use of when detecting stealthed characters but not invisibile ones. Stealthed characters skill should be tested against player/mobs perception with modifiers for shadows, night vision and the like. As you gain in stealth skills then a mob or character would need a higher perception level to "see" you (and be looking in your direction in the first place).
See invis should not see stealth directly, they are two different things. I think of "see invisible" as detecting the magic that is hiding something. As stealthed characters are not being hidden by magic, then the see invis cannot detect them.
The idea of making a sound as you walk, either stealthed or invis is intriguing too. Maybe the type of armour you wear could make you more audable too. Maybe you could have a muffle spell or armour padding skill to cut that down. Or, this too could be another skill that is learned, "Quiet Movement".
I think illusions could be put to better use too. These could also be non magical and magical and be detectable through the same mechanisms as stealth and see invis, i.e. perception checks and "see through illusion".
starblight said:I seem to recall EQ in the early days would have people outside your group be able to completely disappear with invis. I am not sure about stealth. I am sure people could find way to make this a bad idea but I really think it adds a lot.
I am wondering what others think?
In a word... Yes.
As to invisibility to other players, I see no reason not to do this. Subject to the usual caveats mentioned by others such as invisibility not necessarily cancelling out sound. Then again I don't see it as mattering that much so I am content if VR does whatever is easiest on the server and causes the least lag.
As to invisibility towards the mobs - it is entirely logical that it shouldn't work very reliably in dungeons against intelligent mobs. A group of orcs or goblins or trolls would have to be exceptionally isolated or stupid to not realize that invisibilty and stealth were things their enemies (and maybe they themselves) could use and to take precautions.
Stealth should be entirely unseen by all players unless they are close enough and detected by whatever governs that.
Invisible should be entirely unseen by all players unless they have a buff that allows them to see invisible.
We already have such spells/abilities in the game:
Wizard - Sight of Sages
A spell that clouds your natural vision, but allows you to see invisible beings within the mist.
Monk - Second Sight
You are able to sense the flow of Chi around you, enabling you to see certain beings that are invisible to the naked eye.
And then the Dark Myr passive:
Embittered Psyche
Increases Stealth effectiveness, and also increases stealth awareness by 10 points.
Yes it should. In newer games where the stealthed rogue is represented as their character crouching over with shadowy graphics I think it looks lame. It just looks bad to me aesthetically and immersion wise why can I see them walking like that? Unfortunately I seem to recall on a couple of streams that is the direction it is in Pantheon currently. Rogue is crouch walking around. Check the Amberfaet dev play one where he is going ahead to scout and I think black rose too it showed it? Going to look
Edit:
Yea I went and clicked through the Amberfaet dev play stream a bit and even at the very beginning you see Kilsin in the semi-transparent Stealth state. At around 20 mins they are climbing the wall and he is not transparent and CP or someone says hey you should be shadowed for this and Kilsin says he is but it isn't showing, then agro's everything up top haha guess he wasn't really stealthed.
Many times during the stream you can see Kilsin being in and out of stealth.
At 27:08 you can see Kilsin go from normal to stealth very clearly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIqZEMCC5nA
Kind of a bummer because I think even for group members it is odd immersion wise that we can see him but mobs can not. As far as practical gameplay mechanics, what is the reason for it? Why do I need to see the rogue stealthing away? To go after his corpse if he dies I know which way he went? If that is the reason then why can't they communicate "I went over the bridge and died just inside the doorway you will find my corpse to drag" as apposed to the translucent rogue?
Not game breaking for me but disappointed. BOOOO to the translucent Rogue!
Invis should make you invis to everyone, even yourself. In EQ it was a bit of a double-edged sword, as you couldn't sometimes judge where on a dangerous ledge you were standing, for example.
With stealth, it doesn't really make sense to be 'invis', but it sounds like 'stealth' in Pantheon will be somewhat mystical, so should perhaps be a 'real' invis to all, including the user.
Quite some good responses in already. @vandraad, @iksar, @disposalist,...
Stealth of a character, to me, is a matter of becoming LESS VISIBLE to spot, more obscure, an attempt to blend with the environment.
An attempt it remains. Players with enough skill (read specific statpoints/abilities) or npc's might be able to recognize that stealthy character. The mechanic for it isn't that complex either. Certain npc's might just see through that attempt straight away (similar to how a white cat is trying to stalk on a lawn. In their shades of grey-world they might be obscured, but to us, they are just plain visible.)
Invisible has everything to do with magic. No one can be invisible without it. (at least to my interpretation) Invisible makes you impossible to see by other players (unless they have a spell/ability to counter that specific state of invisibility) or have magical roots themselves. For the invisible character/player themself, they should not be able to see their personification in the game, other than footprints (think Harry P's cloak of invisibility). Magical beings might have much less difficulty 'sniffing' out a character who's in a state of invisibility. Or npc's that have been magically altered to be more attentive to this state. Any normal npc couldn't see them either.
On a sidenote: A stealthy character is about skilled to move around with less noise. It originates from being trained to remain mobile and self aware of your place within the world whilest being the least noticable as possible. An invisible player, is just making regular sounds. Here it's all about not being sighted. To remove sound would require another spell to cancel sound. (unless the invis spell is cast on someone who's trained to be stealthy and is mindfull of that while being invis) But this to me, takes it too much into the sphere of dnd and away from mmo's. Adding in this complexity of sound would be great, but to what cost...