Beefcake said:Even Dungeons & Dragons is getting rid of racial stat modifiers and going with class modifiers instead.
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/03/dd-moving-past-racial-ability-scores-using-class.html
Interesting, but that is beginning to open a whole kettle of fish and a can of worms beside.
The concept of race not being a defining factor (not just for PC, but NPCs and monsters too) is to step into the 'debate' on racial prejudice and I'm really not sure that's welcome in a game.
That article references ideas like "not all dark elves are evil" and "orcs aren't genetically pre-disposed to violence" and, maybe it's a personal thing, but I don't want to have a squeamish moral dilemma every time I prepare to engage in an encounter and nor do I want to feel like a serial killer if I ignore those concerns.
Also, to be honest, is it any better to move away from racial traits and move toward class? Is it ok to say "all warriors are stupid thugs" and "all necromancers are weedy sickos?"
The point I get to when I think about all this is; I don't want my 'old school' game (or any game, really) to be too socially responsible. It's ok to invent races you can pigeonhole and to invent monsters you can demonise so you can enjoy playing a certain role and killing monsters without feeling guilty about aspects of it. It's even ok to have player race factions and kill the opposition with impunity because, it's a game and that cathertic 'act and don't worry about the moral consequences' is fine if it's not taken too far.
I really hope D&D doesn't go too far that way. It feels like political correctness applied to an over-the-top degree in an inappropriate way. May as well go back to suggesting the game gets kids into devil worship and the occult as suggest it is in any way effecting our feelings about racial issues.
No one plays chess and worries about the enemy soldiers and dignitaries they are 'killing'. Role-playing games are, of course, more 'meaningful' in that regard and, so, yes, one might have some actual moral dilemmas *sometimes* but to start worrying about it in the fundamentals of the game mechanics is to rub up against it constantly.
To bring this back around to the OP, though, I think people are maybe worrying too much about racial traits either being too impactful or not impactful enough. As I suggested in my previous post, I don't think the difference between 1 and 2 or even 6 is quite as big a deal as we think, but I do think, maybe *because* it's not a big deal, that there *should* be racial differences to start with.
Ogres could start with 3 strength and 3 constitution. Elves with 3 dexterity and 3 charisma, etc.
If attributes are more 'bonuses' to abilities than being core ability drivers, then they are impactful, but not jarringly so. If an ability does damage equal to you strength x 5, then yes, strength differences are hugely impactful. If, however, an ability does 20 + strength, then having 1 strength or 5 strength is impactful, but not many times as impactful.
Racial stats differences would make common sense, but would have little real effect after a few magic items have been gained and a few levels gained.
And we can leave the moral hand-wringing out of it completely and just have fun!
Beefcake said:Even Dungeons & Dragons is getting rid of racial stat modifiers and going with class modifiers instead.
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/03/dd-moving-past-racial-ability-scores-using-class.html
I don't really see how this is an argument for anything. D&D choose to take much from MMO's to bring elaborate gameplay instead of the usual "roll for an attack" type of thing. I do not see it as an improvement, because like MMO's beeing twitchy, it's un-needed.
I'm thinking some of you are missing the fact that there ARE Racial Stat bonuses in Pantheon, they are just done differently.
So one of the things that many people used to complain about back in EQ was the fact that once you were Max level with all the best gear, that extra few points a Race gets in a starting stat simply meant nothing anymore.
In Pantheon we see that VR has taken a slightly different tact. @Iksar mentioned this in his post in this thread, but maybe some of you missed it:
Dwarf gain 'Extra HP per point of Stamina'
Elf gets 'Increased effectiveness of Skills & Abilities modified by Agility'
- Ember Elves gain 'Extra attack rating from each point of Dexterity'
- Ashen Elves gain 'Extra spell Rating from each point of Wisdom'
Gnomes gain 'Extra mana from each point of Intelligence'
Human gain 'Increased effectiveness of Skills & Abilities modified by Charisma'
Ogre gain 'Extra attack rating from each point of Strength'
Skar gain '5% more HP'
So as you can see, these kind of bonuses will remain effective ALL the way through the leveling and at ALL gear levels.
If an Ogre gains +1 strength and you gain 5 Attack Rating per point of strength. When everyone has gear to give 100 Strength, the Ogre will have 101 Strength. This Ogre will only have 5 more attack rating than everyone else.
But if Ogre gains even +1 attack rating per strength. At 100 strength the Ogre will have +100 attack rating than everyone else.
So instead of just gaining an extra Strength point at level 1 that will mean almost nothing once everyone has capped Strength, in Pantheon Ogre's will compoundingly have more advantage the higher the average strength rating of players is.
Should note that the above are only the bonuses that are tied to the actual physical Stats and not mentioning the bonuses that are tied to other things like:
Archai gain 'Increased effectiveness of Elemental Abilities' based on the Element the Archai chooses to be Attuned to (Fire, Water, Wind, Earth)
Dark Myr gain 'Increased Insight Skill' + 'Increased Stealth Effectiveness and Awarness'
Halfling gain 'Bonus to the Effect of Consumables' - This means Potions giving you Stat buffs will give you More stats than normal.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:I'm thinking some of you are missing the fact that there ARE Racial Stat bonuses in Pantheon, they are just done differently.
So one of the things that many people used to complain about back in EQ was the fact that once you were Max level with all the best gear, that extra few points a Race gets in a starting stat simply meant nothing anymore.
In Pantheon we see that VR has taken a slightly different tact. @Iksar mentioned this in his post in this thread, but maybe some of you missed it:
Dwarf gain 'Extra HP per point of Stamina'
Elf gets 'Increased effectiveness of Skills & Abilities modified by Agility'
- Ember Elves gain 'Extra attack rating from each point of Dexterity'
- Ashen Elves gain 'Extra spell Rating from each point of Wisdom'
Gnomes gain 'Extra mana from each point of Intelligence'
Human gain 'Increased effectiveness of Skills & Abilities modified by Charisma'
Ogre gain 'Extra attack rating from each point of Strength'
Skar gain '5% more HP'So as you can see, these kind of bonuses will remain effective ALL the way through the leveling and at ALL gear levels.
If an Ogre gains +1 strength and you gain 5 Attack Rating per point of strength. When everyone has gear to give 100 Strength, the Ogre will have 101 Strength. This Ogre will only have 5 more attack rating than everyone else.
But if Ogre gains even +1 attack rating per strength. At 100 strength the Ogre will have +100 attack rating than everyone else.
So instead of just gaining an extra Strength point at level 1 that will mean almost nothing once everyone has capped Strength, in Pantheon Ogre's will compoundingly have more advantage the higher the average strength rating of players is.
Should note that the above are only the bonuses that are tied to the actual physical Stats and not mentioning the bonuses that are tied to other things like:
Archai gain 'Increased effectiveness of Elemental Abilities' based on the Element the Archai chooses to be Attuned to (Fire, Water, Wind, Earth)
Dark Myr gain 'Increased Insight Skill' + 'Increased Stealth Effectiveness and Awarness'
Halfling gain 'Bonus to the Effect of Consumables' - This means Potions giving you Stat buffs will give you More stats than normal.
It's not really a matter of how they work, but it's still a RPG, and from a RPG standpoint you can't have 1 in a stat at all :/
Beefcake said:Even Dungeons & Dragons is getting rid of racial stat modifiers and going with class modifiers instead.
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/03/dd-moving-past-racial-ability-scores-using-class.html
If you read the change it's more related real life than gameplay reasons and a discussion for another forum. This is fantasy, and a level 1 Ogre is stronger than a Halfling - period.
bigdogchris said:Beefcake said:Even Dungeons & Dragons is getting rid of racial stat modifiers and going with class modifiers instead.
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/03/dd-moving-past-racial-ability-scores-using-class.html
If you read the change it's more related real life than gameplay reasons and a discussion for another forum. This is fantasy, and a level 1 Ogre is stronger than a Halfling - period.
VR seems to disagre, based on their current system.
Beefcake said:bigdogchris said:Beefcake said:Even Dungeons & Dragons is getting rid of racial stat modifiers and going with class modifiers instead.
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/03/dd-moving-past-racial-ability-scores-using-class.html
If you read the change it's more related real life than gameplay reasons and a discussion for another forum. This is fantasy, and a level 1 Ogre is stronger than a Halfling - period.
VR seems to disagre, based on their current system.
I know, and that's why I hope they change their mind.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:I'm thinking some of you are missing the fact that there ARE Racial Stat bonuses in Pantheon, they are just done differently.
So one of the things that many people used to complain about back in EQ was the fact that once you were Max level with all the best gear, that extra few points a Race gets in a starting stat simply meant nothing anymore.
In Pantheon we see that VR has taken a slightly different tact. @Iksar mentioned this in his post in this thread, but maybe some of you missed it:
Dwarf gain 'Extra HP per point of Stamina'
Elf gets 'Increased effectiveness of Skills & Abilities modified by Agility'
- Ember Elves gain 'Extra attack rating from each point of Dexterity'
- Ashen Elves gain 'Extra spell Rating from each point of Wisdom'
Gnomes gain 'Extra mana from each point of Intelligence'
Human gain 'Increased effectiveness of Skills & Abilities modified by Charisma'
Ogre gain 'Extra attack rating from each point of Strength'
Skar gain '5% more HP'So as you can see, these kind of bonuses will remain effective ALL the way through the leveling and at ALL gear levels.
If an Ogre gains +1 strength and you gain 5 Attack Rating per point of strength. When everyone has gear to give 100 Strength, the Ogre will have 101 Strength. This Ogre will only have 5 more attack rating than everyone else.
But if Ogre gains even +1 attack rating per strength. At 100 strength the Ogre will have +100 attack rating than everyone else.
So instead of just gaining an extra Strength point at level 1 that will mean almost nothing once everyone has capped Strength, in Pantheon Ogre's will compoundingly have more advantage the higher the average strength rating of players is.
Should note that the above are only the bonuses that are tied to the actual physical Stats and not mentioning the bonuses that are tied to other things like:
Archai gain 'Increased effectiveness of Elemental Abilities' based on the Element the Archai chooses to be Attuned to (Fire, Water, Wind, Earth)
Dark Myr gain 'Increased Insight Skill' + 'Increased Stealth Effectiveness and Awarness'
Halfling gain 'Bonus to the Effect of Consumables' - This means Potions giving you Stat buffs will give you More stats than normal.
You got a source for this? Because if so please share! This sounds very awesome if this is the way they are taking this game and makes me very excited to play!
Having different races that have differing plusses and minuses is important to add variety and diversity. If it is done partly by attribute differences that is fine with me. If it is done in some other way that is fine with me. Until my time to test comes I won't really care *how* it is done only *that* it is done.
Grimix said:You got a source for this? Because if so please share! This sounds very awesome if this is the way they are taking this game and makes me very excited to play!
This is coming from the race pages. Here the dwarves: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/races/dwarves/
Beefcake said:Even Dungeons & Dragons is getting rid of racial stat modifiers and going with class modifiers instead.
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/03/dd-moving-past-racial-ability-scores-using-class.html
This is a mistake. Racial stat modifiers exist because they make sense.
Also 3.5 is still the best version of Dungeons & Dragons ever.
stellarmind said: [...]allocate the points, sometimes against their wills,[...]
can you imagine if that was a permanent result of a certain questline that had a highly desirable reward but this was the cost? "since you chose to pursue the power of the arcane as a warrior and received it, you are now the most powerful warrior in the land that can cast a fireball BUT....you are now forever as weak as a child! muahahahaha! (sta and str drop down to 2, or something) leaving you now to make entirely new armor and weapon choices :D
To the point of all races starting with 1 in attributes, the DnD point buy system comes to mind as a solution for me. i.e. (Numbers aside) once an attribute reaches 13, spending points costs 2 per 1 attribute instead of 1 for 1, once it reaches 15, a single attribute boost costs 3 points, and you can't buy attributes over a certain number. If a similar mechanic were applied to each race differently, I think that would alleviate some concerns. Like if points in STR costs a gnome 2 points per attribute instead of 1, they are going to be much less likely to spend points there... but they absolutely can if they really wanted to.
Darch said:To the point of all races starting with 1 in attributes, the DnD point buy system comes to mind as a solution for me. i.e. (Numbers aside) once an attribute reaches 13, spending points costs 2 per 1 attribute instead of 1 for 1, once it reaches 15, a single attribute boost costs 3 points, and you can't buy attributes over a certain number. If a similar mechanic were applied to each race differently, I think that would alleviate some concerns. Like if points in STR costs a gnome 2 points per attribute instead of 1, they are going to be much less likely to spend points there... but they absolutely can if they really wanted to.
I would prefer no point buy because I want to reduce/eliminate places for people to try to min/max and/or yell and scream in the forums about wanting to having ways to respect their characters. By not allowing any stat decisions it gives players the full ability to dictate stats based solely on gear. If they want to "respec" they just switch gear.
I think a better solution is for VR to go back to 8 pts in each stat per race, then adjust that based on racial bonuses either up or down. e.g. Humans start with 8 STR 8 INT but Ogres start with 10 STR and 6 INT
Also, they can use the Mastery System to give players the ability to "buy" stats at a much further along point in their career where they know for certain, without a doubt, where they want to put stats. Letting players choose stats at character creation, where most people have no idea how the stats even help, is a mistake. Players should be able to get into the game as easily as possible, learn then game, then start to make hard decisions with how to evolve their character.
Manouk said:can you imagine if that was a permanent result of a certain questline that had a highly desirable reward but this was the cost? "since you chose to pursue the power of the arcane as a warrior and received it, you are now the most powerful warrior in the land that can cast a fireball BUT....you are now forever as weak as a child! muahahahaha! (sta and str drop down to 2, or something) leaving you now to make entirely new armor and weapon choices :D
oh let me paint a lore version of the scenario:
Smashitbig was a young warrior bashing heads in like any other day, until this day at this hour during a special event (unbeknownst to her), she came across an injured water sprite with a question mark over its head. Smashitbig couldn't be bother to read teh quest text and spam clicked the entire 16 pages of quest dialogue and hit accept.
the bloodthirsty player killed 50 hydrodevourers and went to turn in the quest. like most players, Smashitbig just wanted to get quick fast big quest xp, so she slammed that click button through 30 pages of quest turn in dialogue and just randomly accepted the reward.
the freshly leveled up warrior continued killing hydrodevourers, but something was off... she was taking more damage now and... dealing less damage? confused, the warrior looked at the buffs and debuff bar. HUH? nothing out the ordinary. she then look at her equipment. nothing either! it then dawn on her. no. NO. IT CAN'T BE?! she quickly hit the character page and GASP. she was now a water elemental warrior!
she scoured the entire reddit, forums, youtube and other third party resources searching for: HOW TO REMOVE WATER ELEMENTAL STAT? it was doomed. it was permanent. 3 months 14 hours 22 mins and 13 seconds of her life she'll never get back. Her ultimate goal was to be a fire elemental warrior. they got bonus fire damage per point of strength. she would forever be a 3rd rate dps warrior.
Smashitbig could only do one thing now. She returned to the character selection screen and smashed it big on the character delete.
Her new character name is Smashitsafe, the statlocked no customized just like any other warrior out there player. in 3 months she hit max level, but she felt so empty. just another warrior on the chopping block. another dps in the lfg for 2 hours. smashitsafe decided to see what she could do to make herself unique and the best dps warrior out there.
water elemental warriors were ultra rare in did insane splash damage with wisdom and intelligence, but only 1 out of every million warriors could obtain the quest. there was only one thing for Smashit to do: Smashitasis.
Grimix said:GoofyWarriorGuy said:I'm thinking some of you are missing the fact that there ARE Racial Stat bonuses in Pantheon, they are just done differently.
So one of the things that many people used to complain about back in EQ was the fact that once you were Max level with all the best gear, that extra few points a Race gets in a starting stat simply meant nothing anymore.
In Pantheon we see that VR has taken a slightly different tact. @Iksar mentioned this in his post in this thread, but maybe some of you missed it:
Dwarf gain 'Extra HP per point of Stamina'
Elf gets 'Increased effectiveness of Skills & Abilities modified by Agility'
- Ember Elves gain 'Extra attack rating from each point of Dexterity'
- Ashen Elves gain 'Extra spell Rating from each point of Wisdom'
Gnomes gain 'Extra mana from each point of Intelligence'
Human gain 'Increased effectiveness of Skills & Abilities modified by Charisma'
Ogre gain 'Extra attack rating from each point of Strength'
Skar gain '5% more HP'So as you can see, these kind of bonuses will remain effective ALL the way through the leveling and at ALL gear levels.
If an Ogre gains +1 strength and you gain 5 Attack Rating per point of strength. When everyone has gear to give 100 Strength, the Ogre will have 101 Strength. This Ogre will only have 5 more attack rating than everyone else.
But if Ogre gains even +1 attack rating per strength. At 100 strength the Ogre will have +100 attack rating than everyone else.
So instead of just gaining an extra Strength point at level 1 that will mean almost nothing once everyone has capped Strength, in Pantheon Ogre's will compoundingly have more advantage the higher the average strength rating of players is.
Should note that the above are only the bonuses that are tied to the actual physical Stats and not mentioning the bonuses that are tied to other things like:
Archai gain 'Increased effectiveness of Elemental Abilities' based on the Element the Archai chooses to be Attuned to (Fire, Water, Wind, Earth)
Dark Myr gain 'Increased Insight Skill' + 'Increased Stealth Effectiveness and Awarness'
Halfling gain 'Bonus to the Effect of Consumables' - This means Potions giving you Stat buffs will give you More stats than normal.
You got a source for this? Because if so please share! This sounds very awesome if this is the way they are taking this game and makes me very excited to play!
Huh?
I'm ok with starting off with low stats. 1 is a good number to start with. However I agree with the OP. It is a little messed up that everyone should start with 1 in each stat with no consideration for racial differences. Perhaps a Halfling should start with 2 in Dex. While an Orc might start with 2 in Str. A Dwarf could start with 2 in Con.
But for all races to start with 1 in each stat seems to be like there are not multiple races. They are all one race just with different skins.
disposalist said:Beefcake said:Even Dungeons & Dragons is getting rid of racial stat modifiers and going with class modifiers instead.
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/03/dd-moving-past-racial-ability-scores-using-class.html
Interesting, but that is beginning to open a whole kettle of fish and a can of worms beside.
The concept of race not being a defining factor (not just for PC, but NPCs and monsters too) is to step into the 'debate' on racial prejudice and I'm really not sure that's welcome in a game.
That article references ideas like "not all dark elves are evil" and "orcs aren't genetically pre-disposed to violence" and, maybe it's a personal thing, but I don't want to have a squeamish moral dilemma every time I prepare to engage in an encounter and nor do I want to feel like a serial killer if I ignore those concerns.
Also, to be honest, is it any better to move away from racial traits and move toward class? Is it ok to say "all warriors are stupid thugs" and "all necromancers are weedy sickos?"
The point I get to when I think about all this is; I don't want my 'old school' game (or any game, really) to be too socially responsible. It's ok to invent races you can pigeonhole and to invent monsters you can demonise so you can enjoy playing a certain role and killing monsters without feeling guilty about aspects of it. It's even ok to have player race factions and kill the opposition with impunity because, it's a game and that cathertic 'act and don't worry about the moral consequences' is fine if it's not taken too far.
I really hope D&D doesn't go too far that way. It feels like political correctness applied to an over-the-top degree in an inappropriate way. May as well go back to suggesting the game gets kids into devil worship and the occult as suggest it is in any way effecting our feelings about racial issues.
No one plays chess and worries about the enemy soldiers and dignitaries they are 'killing'. Role-playing games are, of course, more 'meaningful' in that regard and, so, yes, one might have some actual moral dilemmas *sometimes* but to start worrying about it in the fundamentals of the game mechanics is to rub up against it constantly.
To bring this back around to the OP, though, I think people are maybe worrying too much about racial traits either being too impactful or not impactful enough. As I suggested in my previous post, I don't think the difference between 1 and 2 or even 6 is quite as big a deal as we think, but I do think, maybe *because* it's not a big deal, that there *should* be racial differences to start with.
Ogres could start with 3 strength and 3 constitution. Elves with 3 dexterity and 3 charisma, etc.
If attributes are more 'bonuses' to abilities than being core ability drivers, then they are impactful, but not jarringly so. If an ability does damage equal to you strength x 5, then yes, strength differences are hugely impactful. If, however, an ability does 20 + strength, then having 1 strength or 5 strength is impactful, but not many times as impactful.
Racial stats differences would make common sense, but would have little real effect after a few magic items have been gained and a few levels gained.
And we can leave the moral hand-wringing out of it completely and just have fun!
It's not racist to say that a 500 lb. Ogre is stronger than a 45 lb. Halfling. It's just simple mathematics. An ant might be able to lift seven times it's body weight but I can squish an ant into oblivion with one finger.
BituminousBlack said:disposalist said:Beefcake said:Even Dungeons & Dragons is getting rid of racial stat modifiers and going with class modifiers instead.
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/03/dd-moving-past-racial-ability-scores-using-class.html
Interesting, but that is beginning to open a whole kettle of fish and a can of worms beside.
The concept of race not being a defining factor (not just for PC, but NPCs and monsters too) is to step into the 'debate' on racial prejudice and I'm really not sure that's welcome in a game.
That article references ideas like "not all dark elves are evil" and "orcs aren't genetically pre-disposed to violence" and, maybe it's a personal thing, but I don't want to have a squeamish moral dilemma every time I prepare to engage in an encounter and nor do I want to feel like a serial killer if I ignore those concerns.
Also, to be honest, is it any better to move away from racial traits and move toward class? Is it ok to say "all warriors are stupid thugs" and "all necromancers are weedy sickos?"
The point I get to when I think about all this is; I don't want my 'old school' game (or any game, really) to be too socially responsible. It's ok to invent races you can pigeonhole and to invent monsters you can demonise so you can enjoy playing a certain role and killing monsters without feeling guilty about aspects of it. It's even ok to have player race factions and kill the opposition with impunity because, it's a game and that cathertic 'act and don't worry about the moral consequences' is fine if it's not taken too far.
I really hope D&D doesn't go too far that way. It feels like political correctness applied to an over-the-top degree in an inappropriate way. May as well go back to suggesting the game gets kids into devil worship and the occult as suggest it is in any way effecting our feelings about racial issues.
No one plays chess and worries about the enemy soldiers and dignitaries they are 'killing'. Role-playing games are, of course, more 'meaningful' in that regard and, so, yes, one might have some actual moral dilemmas *sometimes* but to start worrying about it in the fundamentals of the game mechanics is to rub up against it constantly.
To bring this back around to the OP, though, I think people are maybe worrying too much about racial traits either being too impactful or not impactful enough. As I suggested in my previous post, I don't think the difference between 1 and 2 or even 6 is quite as big a deal as we think, but I do think, maybe *because* it's not a big deal, that there *should* be racial differences to start with.
Ogres could start with 3 strength and 3 constitution. Elves with 3 dexterity and 3 charisma, etc.
If attributes are more 'bonuses' to abilities than being core ability drivers, then they are impactful, but not jarringly so. If an ability does damage equal to you strength x 5, then yes, strength differences are hugely impactful. If, however, an ability does 20 + strength, then having 1 strength or 5 strength is impactful, but not many times as impactful.
Racial stats differences would make common sense, but would have little real effect after a few magic items have been gained and a few levels gained.
And we can leave the moral hand-wringing out of it completely and just have fun!
It's not racist to say that a 500 lb. Ogre is stronger than a 45 lb. Halfling. It's just simple mathematics. An ant might be able to lift seven times it's body weight but I can squish an ant into oblivion with one finger.
Partly the point I was making, yes. Because it is probably simple mathematics, though, the effect those stats have is mostly unknown. It *sounds* like to have 1 strength is half as good as 2 strength, but it may not be that way at all, depending on how VR is coding the maths.
As has been noted, Ogres gain more attack power from strength than halflings. Maybe also lifting power per point is racial, but not ogre explicit, so isn't in the racial passives. Who knows.
We are looking at "1 strength" and making assumptions based on what previous games have done or what it 'sounds like' it should do compared to 2 strength.
What VR are doing with it might be totally different.
That said, if they want us to make choices about stat allocation in any way that is meaningful, we *do* have to understand it.
Because of this, they either they need to make stats work in a way that is obvious (ie. have racial differences that are sensible and obvious - not have them all start at 1) or explain thoroughly the maths of how they work even though they don't seem obvious.