The main Pantheon website claims that dungeons will not be a 5 minute escapade, but will require strategy and team work. How are dungeons, especially the beginning to mid-level game dungeons, going to be prevented from devolving into the 10 minute sprint-fests that plague other MMO games?
My memory is a bit hazy on this one, but I seem to remember something about keys and doors.
Oh, and who couldn't forget the climbing aspect...
Dungeons will be open world, not instanced. They will be large with many areas and level ranges for hunting and exploration.
Most likely, most dungeons will have enough content and level ranges for a player to return to several times in their characters lifespan.
They are not designed as a 1 purpose concept like many newer games, where the dungeons are solely just a single point of access to reach a raid boss, but are part of the world for exploration.
gamexilor1 said:The main Pantheon website claims that dungeons will not be a 5 minute escapade, but will require strategy and team work. How are dungeons, especially the beginning to mid-level game dungeons, going to be prevented from devolving into the 10 minute sprint-fests that plague other MMO games?
If the enemies are so challenging that you can't mow them down, maybe that won't be a thing?
((But I thought all video games where just a series of hall ways? /s))
You start in a hallway. Turn left and walk into the wall to check for secret doors. Turn right twice and do the same. Turn left. Move one square. Rinse and repeat until you come to a room. Keep your graph paper handy to record your progress.
No, sorry, that was Wizardry 1 not Pantheon and it was a big step forward at the time.
gamexilor1 said:The main Pantheon website claims that dungeons will not be a 5 minute escapade, but will require strategy and team work. How are dungeons, especially the beginning to mid-level game dungeons, going to be prevented from devolving into the 10 minute sprint-fests that plague other MMO games?
Tbh, the "dungeons" in the recent MMOs are nothing but linear pathways with enemies of very similar difficulty. Additionally, they're usually instanced. So, there's no chance for you to get turned around, to get lost or for getting trapped between spawns and re-spawns.
If you've never played Everquest, google for "EQ Atlas" and have a look at the maps there. Some nice examples for lower level dungeons are Blackburrow, or the Estate of Unrest. Great places that you could start exploring in your low teens. But both also had sections for higher levels (up to mid 20's in Unrest), and you needed a good party composition to succeed in them. And those are just the lower level places. The (in)famous dungeons there, like Lower Guk, Solusek's Eye, Nagafen's Lair, or Sebilis were truly huge and dangerous places for the high level players.
So that is what I guess and hope will be how Pantheon's dungeons are designed. Labyrinths, hidden doors, multiple sections for players of differing levels. And of course, not easy to reach (no dungeon finder where you just teleport to). Just getting there could be an adventure in itself. Then add in Pantheon's specialities like NPC dispositions and things get even more interesting!
No, I think we will have a lot of fun in dungeons, and they definitely won't be sprint fests :)
gamexilor1 said: "The main Pantheon website claims that dungeons will not be a 5 minute escapade, but will require strategy and team work. How are dungeons, especially the beginning to mid-level game dungeons, going to be prevented from devolving into the 10 minute sprint-fests that plague other MMO games?"
A very good question...
As you know Pantheon has been inspired by the origional Everquest which is where this 'require strategy and team work' point of view comes from. Whereas World of Warcraft, even in it's Vanilla days were more in line with the 'sprint-fests' that you are referencing. So let's look at how EQ dungeons differed from WoW dungeons.
Some quick dungeon maps to compare:
World of Warcraft Lvl 10-15 zone: Ragefire Caverns: 4 Named bosses dropping unique loot.
Everquest Lvl 7-25 zone: Befallen: 10 Named Bosses dropping unique loot.
World of Warcraft Lvl 42-52 zone: North Dire Maul: 6 Named bosses dropping unique loot.
Everquest Lvl 30-50+ zone: Lower Guk: ~25 Named bosses dropping unique loot.
World of Warcraft Lvl 62-64 zone: The Slave Pens: 3 Named bosses dropping unique loot.
Everquest Lvl 47-60+ zone: Velketor's Labyrinth: ~23 Named bosses dropping unique loot, and 2 Raid bosses (for level appropriate players).
As you can tell, the dungeons in Everquest were a lot more complicated map wise with many offshoots in various directions, whereas World of Warcraft dungeons were very linear and only 1 possible direction to go. Everquest dungeons also had a lot more named targets to kill for potential loot.
WoW zones are instanced and once you enter the zone the targets are all available to your Party and nobody else. You were guaranteed that the Named Bosses would be alive and ready for you to slay them (with some exceptions of rare spawn Named targets that may or may not be up when you enter).
In Everquest dungeons being 'Open World' meant that all the other players on the server had access simultaneously to the same zone, and you could find many different groups within the same dungeon trying to hunt down these same targets. These Named targets were not guaranteed to be spawned and ready for you to slay; Instead they could have Placeholder non-named enemies that spawn in their spot. When you kill any enemies, those spawn spots would respawn a new enemy after a set amount of time (usually around 20 minutes, depending on the zone), so hunting for a specific named target could take a long time as you killed placeholder after placeholder non-named targets until the Named boss spawned.
Also, while some Everquest zones were created specifically for Raids, many of the Raid bosses were found in the same dungeons as normal single Party named targets were. So while you and your Party may be hunting some simple Named spider for a unique Silk Robe drop, you may cross paths with a 6+ Party high level Raid on their way deep in to slay the giant Red Dragon who would gobble up your Party in a few quick bites.
Now obviously Pantheon is a different game than Everquest, but there are some fundamental similarities. For one it has the open world concept which means multiple Parties of players will be in the same area competing for targets. There will also be the constant respawning of enemies and so it won't be as simple as just clearing all the trash until you get to the bosses. We have been told that some Named targets will also possibly have several different spawn points within a zone, so even if your Party fights down to a known spot, the Named target could be somewhere else.
VR has also told us that in Pantheon there is likely going to be a lot more spread between Low and High level in some dungeons than Everquest even had. So the same dungeon could contain areas for Lvl 10 players, but also contain areas for Lvl 25-30 players and yet other areas for Lvl 45+ players. So as you venture in, you will need to be mindful that some areas won't be accessable to you until you gain more experience and gear.
Not to mention the potential Raid targets that could be sprinkled in any of those given areas. So even if you are lvl 15 in the low level areas, you might still see a multi-party Raid who come by and walk through a special wall, that you didn't even realize was a Magic portal, to kill a badass Raid target you didn't even know was just around the corner. And those Raiders may be similar level to you, as VR has told us that there should be 'Raid style' multi-party targets even at lower levels.
Add in the Atmosphere and Climates system and it adds another layer of complexity.
Climates are 'Natural phenomenons' such as a Frigid or Scorching Climate that could be Zone wide or contained within a certain section of a dungeon. The Aclimation system you may have heard of will determine how well your character can survive and thrive in these Climates.
Atmospheres are more like 'unnatural phenomenon' that you would find in a specific room or as an aura around a specific object. This could be things like 'Supernatural Darkness' that may require special Magical light sources or Spells to let you see. Or could be Lightning effects that you need to Avoid or bypass in some way. It is also be possible that these Atmospheres are tied directly to an enemy itself and not to a place. So the Named boss could himself be emitting the Supernatural Darkness.
Some sources for you to watch: Atmosphere vs Climate (Joppa expalins) | A Negative Atmosphere (A Prototype taste of the Atmosphere system) | Combating Atmospheres (Joppa explains) | Negating an Atmosphere (Ring of Anchor protects them).
GoofyWarriorGuy said:gamexilor1 said: "The main Pantheon website claims that dungeons will not be a 5 minute escapade, but will require strategy and team work. How are dungeons, especially the beginning to mid-level game dungeons, going to be prevented from devolving into the 10 minute sprint-fests that plague other MMO games?"
A very good question...
As you know Pantheon has been inspired by the origional Everquest which is where this 'require strategy and team work' point of view comes from. Whereas World of Warcraft, even in it's Vanilla days were more in line with the 'sprint-fests' that you are referencing. So let's look at how EQ dungeons differed from WoW dungeons.
Some quick dungeon maps to compare:
World of Warcraft Lvl 10-15 zone: Ragefire Caverns: 4 Named bosses dropping unique loot.
Everquest Lvl 7-25 zone: Befallen: 10 Named Bosses dropping unique loot.World of Warcraft Lvl 42-52 zone: North Dire Maul: 6 Named bosses dropping unique loot.
Everquest Lvl 30-50+ zone: Lower Guk: ~25 Named bosses dropping unique loot.World of Warcraft Lvl 62-64 zone: The Slave Pens: 3 Named bosses dropping unique loot.
Everquest Lvl 47-60+ zone: Velketor's Labyrinth: ~23 Named bosses dropping unique loot, and 2 Raid bosses (for level appropriate players).
As you can tell, the dungeons in Everquest were a lot more complicated map wise with many offshoots in various directions, whereas World of Warcraft dungeons were very linear and only 1 possible direction to go. Everquest dungeons also had a lot more named targets to kill for potential loot.WoW zones are instanced and once you enter the zone the targets are all available to your Party and nobody else. You were guaranteed that the Named Bosses would be alive and ready for you to slay them (with some exceptions of rare spawn Named targets that may or may not be up when you enter).
In Everquest dungeons being 'Open World' meant that all the other players on the server had access simultaneously to the same zone, and you could find many different groups within the same dungeon trying to hunt down these same targets. These Named targets were not guaranteed to be spawned and ready for you to slay; Instead they could have Placeholder non-named enemies that spawn in their spot. When you kill any enemies, those spawn spots would respawn a new enemy after a set amount of time (usually around 20 minutes, depending on the zone), so hunting for a specific named target could take a long time as you killed placeholder after placeholder non-named targets until the Named boss spawned.
Also, while some Everquest zones were created specifically for Raids, many of the Raid bosses were found in the same dungeons as normal single Party named targets were. So while you and your Party may be hunting some simple Named spider for a unique Silk Robe drop, you may cross paths with a 6+ Party high level Raid on their way deep in to slay the giant Red Dragon who would gobble up your Party in a few quick bites.
Now obviously Pantheon is a different game than Everquest, but there are some fundamental similarities. For one it has the open world concept which means multiple Parties of players will be in the same area competing for targets. There will also be the constant respawning of enemies and so it won't be as simple as just clearing all the trash until you get to the bosses. We have been told that some Named targets will also possibly have several different spawn points within a zone, so even if your Party fights down to a known spot, the Named target could be somewhere else.VR has also told us that in Pantheon there is likely going to be a lot more spread between Low and High level in some dungeons than Everquest even had. So the same dungeon could contain areas for Lvl 10 players, but also contain areas for Lvl 25-30 players and yet other areas for Lvl 45+ players. So as you venture in, you will need to be mindful that some areas won't be accessable to you until you gain more experience and gear.
Not to mention the potential Raid targets that could be sprinkled in any of those given areas. So even if you are lvl 15 in the low level areas, you might still see a multi-party Raid who come by and walk through a special wall, that you didn't even realize was a Magic portal, to kill a badass Raid target you didn't even know was just around the corner. And those Raiders may be similar level to you, as VR has told us that there should be 'Raid style' multi-party targets even at lower levels.
Add in the Atmosphere and Climates system and it adds another layer of complexity.
Climates are 'Natural phenomenons' such as a Frigid or Scorching Climate that could be Zone wide or contained within a certain section of a dungeon. The Aclimation system you may have heard of will determine how well your character can survive and thrive in these Climates.
Atmospheres are more like 'unnatural phenomenon' that you would find in a specific room or as an aura around a specific object. This could be things like 'Supernatural Darkness' that may require special Magical light sources or Spells to let you see. Or could be Lightning effects that you need to Avoid or bypass in some way. It is also be possible that these Atmospheres are tied directly to an enemy itself and not to a place. So the Named boss could himself be emitting the Supernatural Darkness.
Some sources for you to watch: Atmosphere vs Climate (Joppa expalins) | A Negative Atmosphere (A Prototype taste of the Atmosphere system) | Combating Atmospheres (Joppa explains) | Negating an Atmosphere (Ring of Anchor protects them).
Thanks for the information!!
