Usually, when I start forum threads I do it to create a discussion. However, this is just a straight-up Neph opinion post. I hope that it resonates with folks but this is something that I don't want to stay silent on anymore.
I have been part of this community for going on 4 years now. That's more than some and less than others. Yet, in that time I have seen a very disturbing trend: When most of us talk about what kind of experience we want Pantheon to be, we focus on things like how long it should take to level, how much raiding there should be at "endgame", or how strict group requirements should be. And while these are all interesting and important topics, the problem is that these things won't actually make Pantheon successful. At least not by themselves.
We need to be thinking about why we have enjoyed MMORPGs in the past Whether we have styled ourselves as "casual" or "hardcore" (which are meaningless terms, by the way), and whether we're talking about EverQuest or Vanguard or FFXI or even about games like WoW or LOTRO, there are things that made us want to log in, and made us want to keep playing, at least for a while. Those things did not simply come down to having raids at endgame to pursue or having levels to achieve. Sure, goals are nice, but a goal alone does not make something enjoyable.
Do you know what we call something where we have a goal that isn't enjoyable? A grind.
Here's what I think makes MMORPGs enjoyable:
- Risk. Understanding that there's a possibility that I won't succeed, and accepting that possibility.
- Challenge. Understanding that in order to succeed, I'm going to have to really think about what I'm doing, and play smart, rather than just simply mashing buttons on my keyboard.
- Depth. Finding that there is more to learn and more to master, no matter which part of the experience I'm doing.
- Breadth. Finding that there are many different things that I can do and that it's not always the same activity all of the time.
- Meaning. Finding that the choices I make have both expected and unexpected consequences, and aren't simply a matter of min/maxing the best results.
- Engagement. Finding that I care about the world and its inhabitants and the stories that are being told (or generated).
- Socialization. Finding that I am not alone when I am online and that others are just as engaged and interested in aspects of the world as I am.
- Shared Objectives. Finding that I am cooperating with others regularly. Helping them to succeed and in turn being helped, rather than always having to look at them as competitors.
So rather than us debating how much time people have to play or trying to say how Pantheon needs to cater to some group or niche or how it needs to fit the pattern of every MMORPG that's come before while somehow not being the same or falling into the same traps, I think we need to be talking about these things instead. Engagement vs. goals. Compelling vs. grindy. Inclusive vs. Divisive.
I might be the only one who gets frustrated by this. But if this post does nothing else, hopefully, it at least makes everyone stop and think about how to make Terminus a living, breathing fantasy world that everyone will want to dive into and explore - instead of simply being an experience in climbing a really big ladder.
Nephele said:Do you know what we call something where we have a goal that isn't enjoyable? A grind.
While I agree with your post in general, I would disagree that every goal should have an associated process that is enjoyable. Some things should be tedius, boring even. That is, in and of itself, a test of the player willingness to actually work towards that goal.
Vandraad said:Nephele said:Do you know what we call something where we have a goal that isn't enjoyable? A grind.
While I agree with your post in general, I would disagree that every goal should have an associated process that is enjoyable. Some things should be tedius, boring even. That is, in and of itself, a test of the player willingness to actually work towards that goal.
Case in point, the Qiraji War Effort event currently going on in Classic WoW.
For those not in the know, the event revolves around the lore of a forgotten war between the Qiraji and the Bronze Dragonflight. The event involves farming millions of different materials to turn in for the Qiraji War Effort before the gates to Ahn'Qiraj will open, giving players access to two new raids. Part of the event allows players to grind reputation with the Brood of Nozdormu, the primary aspect of the Bronze Dragonflight, in order to obtain a legendary mount in the 10 hours following the completion of the event. The only way to raise your reputation is by turning in Silithid Carapace Fragments, by killing Silithids in the zone, at 200 fragments for 200 reputation, for a total of 42000 reputation to reach Neutral and be able to talk to Nozdormu and continue the quest. This is anywhere from 40-60 in-game hours worth of grinding silithids for enough fragments. Needless to say, it's tedious, boring, and to most people hardly seems worth it. I helped three of my guildmates farm fragments while the event was going on on our server, each one was able to complete the quest chain, and each one says it was totally worth it.
The point being, there's nothing wrong with the "grind", as long as the payoff is worthwhile. There should be mechanisms in place to deter general players from going for certain achievements, that's what makes those achievements worth doing for the small number of players willing to put in the time.
With the risk of turning this into a philosophical discusssion;
You have people that work towards reaching goals in life, others seek the challenge, the process, in life.
What else compelles players towards Pantheon specifically? Some might log on just because someone familiar is playing at the same time. Occupying themselves with something less challenging than what they are tackling in real life. To get away from the familiar faces in real life and drop into anonymity. To excell in something which they can't in real life.
There are plenty of alternatives that drive people to log on.
It's key for the Dev's to recognize that their designs should be experienced and fun in general. For the most part, because as Vandraad mentioned the best way to feel the climactic and anticlimactic moments in the game is (partly) due to the grey zone in between those moments. I'll try to use the weather as better example: You'll enjoy the sun more intensly when you haven't seen it in a while. So in way, it's part of the game and it has it's rightful place in it. Finding that delicate balance is another more difficult topic.
For the majority of your post, I can recognize what I've been telling for these last couple of years on these forums aswel.
My reasons so far; to engage in social interaction with other players/classes. To walk in the game and encounter those awestruck moments of 'natural' beauty within this fantasy world. Share those moments of surprise, discovery and tension of the unknown. To ban together for banter, giggles, experiencing that learning curve, reaching those milestones together and defeating those epic challenges. To aid others to give them that place in the spotlight and time to shine and bathe in a sense of personal accomplisment. Those last few %'s of a taxing and challenging encounter. Everyone who's shouted out after a raidkill in joined euphoria knows what I'm talking about.
Nephele said: ... I might be the only one who gets frustrated by this. But if this post does nothing else, hopefully, it at least makes everyone stop and think about how to make Terminus a living, breathing fantasy world that everyone will want to dive into and explore - instead of simply being an experience in climbing a really big ladder.
You're not the only one. However..
A living breathing world is not the primary design goal for Pantheon, based on the differences, features, and tenets demonstrated to date. If it was? Combat would be one of many fully designed in game systems or loops. That is not the case. So far, there has been no demonstration of any game loop with the same breadth, depth, challenge, or reward as the combat loop.
As such, climbing a really big ladder is the best we can hope for, given the information and demonstrations so far.
Make no mistake, Nephele, I'm right there with you in what I'd like to see the game become. I've just see very little evidence that this is going to be much more than a combat leveling experience that takes slightly longer than 'normal', by 2025 standards.
I mean, how many times have we seen extraordinarily detailed discussions on these forums ignored or locked? Very detailed theorycrafting that could go into iterations with developers for design & implementation plans. Complete wastes of time and energy, given the videos shows so far. VR has either no inclination, no resources, and/or no time.
On the other hand, EQ1 wasn't that much different, initially. Being a modded GUI DikuMUD, it was pretty good. It was also one of fewer than 10 MMOs at the time. Now, there are dozens. EQ1 didn't have to be particularly compelling, it was, from a certain set of requirements, the only one of its kind at the time. It hand grind, though, for certain.
I don't mind when something takes a long time to accomplish. In most post-2005 MMOs I've played, the leveling experience is simply a way to teach you how to play your character. Each tier expands your potential role(s) slightly, so you can, if you ever do group, perform different roles. It's not a grind, nor is it compelling. It's simply the bulk of the content of the game.
What made EQ1 compelling to me was the "grind", that is, leveling, required you to be in a group, socially positive, not being a jerk, generally.
But yeah, to me, given what's been demonstrated to date, Terminus will not be a living, breathing fantasy world.
Vandraad said:Nephele said:Do you know what we call something where we have a goal that isn't enjoyable? A grind.
While I agree with your post in general, I would disagree that every goal should have an associated process that is enjoyable. Some things should be tedius, boring even. That is, in and of itself, a test of the player willingness to actually work towards that goal.
And whilst I agree with your disagreement, I disagree with your suggestion. I, too, am not against 'the grind'. I believe that some content should reward persistence and patience. I don't, however, think it needs to be 'boring', 'tedious' or frustrating to most. I think that kind of experience can be avoided. It can be simply relaxing and relatively undemanding, but still be enjoyable and not boring.
'The grind' in EQ was often a very enjoyable experience, if you did it while socialising in a friendly group. Sometimes while listening to music and half-watching TV! I honestly don't want every experience in Pantheon to be a frantic, sweat-inducing 'challenge'. I'm quite happy for some of it to be doable in a zen-like trance hehe.
That doesn't have to be tedious though.
I guess some of this is semantics, but what I'm saying is, what a lot of people call 'a grind' isn't necessarily all bad if it's done the right way.
I mostly agree, Neph (apart from the grind comment as noted above, but that might just be semantics).
What I hope VR takes with a big pinch of salt is the players insisting that Pantheon *must* be competitive and hard to the degree that pro-wannabe, minmaxing, uber-guildies will not be able to chew it up in a few weeks.
I want Pantheon to be much more challenging than the genre has become, yes; but that is achievable by just pitching it at a level that requires a group at all!
Aiming Pantheon at extreme players hungry for progression and power at high pace will ruin it for the majority of players. Yes, progression is a core concept of RPGs, but the pace of that progression can have wildly varying effect on the feel of the game.
To roll back the clock on the MMORPG genre, they simply need to make grouping important again and to make player interdependance important again. They need the slow pace and kind of activities that engender socialisation, if only about the tactics and planning of the group's current activity.
Combat always gets the focus and, of course, combat is fundamental to a classic fantasy RPG, but that is a given and Neph is correct that it's all the 'other things' that make the world in which that combat occurs feel less like 'a game' and more like 'a world'.
Let's remember, though, that EQ didn't have much in the way of 'other things', but was still much more than just a 'combat' game or at least felt much more. I believe this is because you needed to socialise to play most of the game and the pace of the game allowed for that.
I have confidence that VR are aware that an RPG, especially an MMORPG, shouldn't just be relentless combat challenge. It is important of course that combat is central and solid and satisfying, but that's like a car should have a good engine. It wouldn't be a good car with the engine being the only focus, though (especially if that were further focused only around speed or power).
I have played at lot of mmos.I agree with Nephele, on his points especially risk/reward. There can be fun everywhere. Some people enjoy fishing! Damn , the risk comes from the mob that might wander past, a fish that might pull you in the water. I've found that for me there is no grind if I am grouped ...with social players. If the mobs are somewhat spaced and there is a little talk outside of the "why didn't you cast spell x instead of spell y", I'm happy. I guess I've seen something different from Vjek. I have seen combat, yes, but, perception, as a cool system that I've seen just enough of to be really interested. I'm looking forward to exploring, certainly my major focus. But, I am very excited about crafting, and looking forward to the interchange it will take to make a "shield of strength", with my elven shaman blacksmith. I'm sure to need raw materials, leather, metal ore, maybe wood, paint. Then there is also buying and selling, travel, swimming, climbing. I'm very excited. My biggest concern is high level players blocking content while they farm mobs that are grey to them but yellow to me.
I agree with a lot of what you had to say. I also agree with what Valdraad had to say. I don't want the fairytale where VR holds my hand. That is the prolem as a whole in this world today. I find most people want the reward without the risk / without doing the work. I'm not fot that at all. I'm NOT on the same page with you in the way you talked about a grind. I'll agree when it comes to the grind it does need to be balance. Not every thing needs to be a grind. I however want gaining levels to actually mean something again. So having a grind here doesn't bug me one bit. When talking about the grind. Please don't talk about in a general term as if one size fits all. It doesn't.
For me personally, from your list I find that depth is really important in open world games. I'd love to see VR pick out things that make a spot valuable to a player, like harvestable resources, quest/lore, faction, experience, valuable loot, and safety. Then try to make several optional locations for everyone at every level to prioritize different amounts of these values, at the price of others. So for example, an area that gives lots of money but is really dangerous, or an area that is really good for experience but is bad for faction.
I like the idea of at least 3 different places I can realistically choose from at any level, depending on the values of myself and who I want to level up with. Too many, though, would of course separate the playerbase too much, so there is an upper limit.
I also like the idea of areas that aren't very good for anything except in really specialized situations. Maybe a place that is just a little too dangerous for the experience/loot for most players but a ranger can pick out the wide ranging rare mob with good loot. Things like that are hard to fit into a game but i think that even if people only run past it it makes the world feel much more alive and real.
Honestly if I think of my most prized memories in EQ and other MMOs....it's achieving something that took awhile to get..and there were a lot of pitfalls and struggles that weren't fun. It's honestly a balance...if everything is fun...then nothing is fun. Kind of becomes boring in some ways. EQ made a savage world...with a huge amount of risk vs reward. Going into new dungeons and stuff would make yoru adrenaline pump and hairs on the back of your neck stand up when you were thinking that if you die how do I get my corpse back and stuff, but it was fun at the same time because if you win, well that is fun, if you lose and die, then it is unfun and the corpse run back sucks. But because the corpse run back sucks...if I do succeed instead I have much more fun since I didn't die basically. Corpse runs were meant to not be fun, but it also made achieving things way more fun. So it's a balance act. WoW tries to make everything fun and makes everything boring in the process. Soo I don't know the right balance, but you need hardship and struggle in an MMO to apperciate achieving and winning also.
Indeed it is a balancing act. Creating a world that engages and satisfies player expectations does not mean creating solely fun activities linked to the next fun activity for the duration of your stay in Terminus.
I believe Agent Smith said it best... "Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? ... But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from."
Like the effect that EQ1 had on me, I dont wanna wake up, just keep me plugged into Terminus....
I will give a vague and general reply to an intentionally very general and not specific post.
I think what will reduce grind in Pantheon compared to many other games are two of its core features. Very slow progress in general so that we don't get to maximum level fast, and focus on the world in general not the endgame - so many of the most interesting things to do are intended to be part of the leveling and exploration process.
Many of the "grinds" in other games come at maximum level for the very good reason that most players have characters at that level and the developers need to give them something to do. Grinds are the traditional response. Faction grinds, dailies and the like.
The hope of Pantheon is that with slow progress that won't be as big an issue other than for the more dedicated speed-levelers and even at maximum level there may be inducements to start over either with the same or a related character (Progeny) rather than mindlessly grinding for more and more marginal improvements to the level-cap character just for lack of anything else to do.
Grinding is a player construct. You choose whether or not you want to see it as a "grind". It's completely out of the developer’s hands because what "grinding" means to you and "grinding" means to someone else can be vastly different. Therefore, trying to remove it and base gameplay around an indefinable amount of time is itself a waste of actual time.
Just play the game.
Neph: I do agree with nearly all you've written here, and where I don't fully agree, the differances are so small they are not worth talking about.
Two things you've said really hit home with me, and I couldn't agree with you more. Indeed, I may even feel more strongly about them than what you wrote: Depth and Meaning. I found in EQ the equal opportunities to craft, to explore, to group, solo, raid or even just fish meant an awful lot to me. I never had to do the same thing two days in a row (except for you, you Bastarge, Raster of Guk) or even two hours. In a way it was like real life, career, tasks, home care, hobbies, playing with the kids, the dogs, and yes...going fishing. Means an awful lot to me, especially the word we shall not say: Immersion.
But immersion alone is a fragile thing. Once you realized what you did was only for you...not your group, your guild, your race or the World...it becomes so much smaller. Our lives in game should mean something: we craft a reputation of course with NPCs and Real Life Players...but what did our life mean? I think this question can be resolved via the Progeny system, the one I am second most interested in, following Perception.
So, if there is a Depth to the game, and more importantly, if there is Meaning, I don't care how long it takes, and I don't see it as a grind.
As always, a good post Neph!
(edited for typos)
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Nephele said:Do you know what we call something where we have a goal that isn't enjoyable? A grind.
Personally I call it a burden or a headache XD.
In all seriousness, though I think that grinding is a core part of MMOs and how well a grind is received comes down to player agency when participating in that grind, the dynamic nature of the grind, and how it feels during and after the grind. I think that it is important to state that no matter the quality of content being implemented or the variety of content that is implemented not everyone is going to find enjoyment in everything. I'm under the impression that anything can be labeled a grind (in the negative connotation) depending on the person you're talking with and how much they enjoyed it, even if you went through the same content and wouldn't label it as a grind.
Getting into the aspects that make a game compelling I think that Nephele hit the nail on the head for the most part. For me personally, the concept of Socialization and Shared Objectives are probably the most important just because I hate leveling and experiencing the world alone.
Combat wise Risk and Challenge were mentioned but I would add the concept of Adaptability. Do my group members and I have the ability to adapt in a combat situation and even if one or two of us were to die could and we still pull through the encounter. I think that one of the best memory forming experiences is when you and your group are able to overcome the "impossible odds" and win an encounter when you were on the brink of death. I still have memories from Everquest and classic WoW where things went south but due to skill, quick thinking, and adaptation, the encounter was saved even if the group was borderline on the brink of death.
The concept of Enagement was mentioned but I would also add the concept of Wonderment. Does the world speak to me, is it unique, are there multiple areas in the world which draw the eye and make me ask the question "How do I get there?" or "What do I need to do or have to engage with this puzzle?".
I would also say that Combat and Gear Progression are important. Does the combat feel fluid and does it feel like there is a power progression? Does the process of obtaining gear feel good, are there multiple ways to gear, are there competitive gear options found in various locations at all levels, and are there item sets that tell a story by making a player go to multiple locations to fully complete the set and does the sense of completion and achievement outweigh the grind for these sets.
Getting back to grinds though, I personally think that the worst grinds are the ones that you feel forced to participate in and there are no alternate routes to take, and there is no player choice in participating in the grind.
grinding is no fun when there is no danger involved, like how traveling is today in many mmos. case in point, amazon’s preview of their upcoming mmo new world is nice to look at but ultimately not for me when i realized i could level to twenty solo without dying once.
no wonder people want fast travel when all there is to it is just running past every mob because they eventually leash.
I mentioned this in the twitter discussion but something that people's responses have reinforced for me (again) is how the word "grind" means different things to different people these days. Many people equate a grind with "requiring effort". Whereas for me, it has always been about being required to do something that isn't fun or engaging. If I'm having fun/engaged, I don't care about how much effort or time something takes. My brain has been operating on that definition for 20 years now so it's unlikely that I will change anytime soon, but I am still constantly surprised by how differently people view the word these days. It probably means that it's become a meaningless term (just like "casual" or "mainstream") and now I am going to try to find a new word to use that isn't so ambiguous.
It is only after you have run out of content and incentive to play with multiple characters in multiple games that you learn to appreciate grinds and time sinks. I have learned to love them.
As long as there is a reason for me to log in I'm happy. When you want to play but there is nothing to work on or no incentive to log in it feels bad.
I'll take a slow, monotonous, tedious, multiple year long grind with a decent reward all day and love having something to work on.
I just hope there are never any daily/weekly adventure and crafting missions, geez I hate those and they actually drive me away from games eventually because I end up thinking 'oh well missed weekly,no point in logging in now' Mainly because I usually have loads of alts and every tradeskill profession.
I wish we could see the end of grinding just to enable a normal grind, but I know we wont. I absolutely loathe endless consumable farming just to be able to engage with content.
Some people call finding a camp..getting a group together..and killing that camp for hours as a grind for gear and exp. I find it social and relaxing tbh. Share your pantheon stories..where other gear is at...goals you have..etc.
Now something like WoW is just quest grinding to me...gather this..do that..kill mobs...yadadada lol. Anyways what you find boring others can find enjoyable.
In order to avoid the feeling of a grind, I generally lean on either attempting to optimize efficiency or effectively self-handicapping by taking on unnecessarily difficult challenges for my level/class/group size.
Efficiency optimization is commonplace because it is a universal driver, so easily observable, repeatable, etc. You just calculate exp (or money, points, etc.) and divide by time, which people's brains do in the background even if they're not consciously paying attention to it. People gravitate to the highest efficiency activities that they can find. My intuition would say that this is great, because the highest efficiency acitivites should generally be the most difficult ones, and so risk vs. reward is naturally built in. However, I rarely find that this is the case.
For optimizing efficiency the time to kill "TTK" and reward per kill "RPK" need to be compared. TTK scales by combat mechanics, and this generally means greater than linear scaling factors. Chance to hit, increased armor, increased damage, and increased health all combine to make higher level enemies dramatically more difficult and risky, driving up TTK. The RPK for more difficult enemies rarely scales fast enough to keep up.
Trivial content: Limited by finding enough enemies to slaughter and the exp scaling usually makes this pointless.
Easy content: The best efficiency because good players can kill lots of enemies in quick succession. The limiting factor for this is often how fast pulls can be brought back to the group.
Medium difficulty content: Tied for the best efficiency, but with a little more risk due to rare spawns and large groups often being a bit dangerous. Limited by pull rate and/or support mana regen.
Difficult content: This generally gets players less experience efficiency, but often gets them more relevant item drops for their level.
Very difficult content: This is generally worthless because the TTK is so high, risk of failure is so high, and the RPK isn't nearly high enough to justify it.
This leads to an interesting dichotomy from early levels on through later levels. Challenging content is what yields the best loot while easy content is what yields the best experience. Why? Is this intentional game design? Is this a natural or unavoidable consequence of mmo game design? If experience must scale poorly with the difficulty of content, can there be at least something that makes it actually worthwhile to challenge yourself? I'm envisioning "prestige", an experience pool associated with alternate advancement "AA" that is more aggressively scaled to difficulty, encouraging players to challenge themselves while grinding.