This is cross-posted from Pantheon Crafters
Yesterday I asked a few questions in various discords to see how people thought gathering rare materials should work. Today I wanted to expand that into a full-fledged roundtable.
As a reminder, gathering potentially encompasses several different activities in Pantheon:
The questions I asked yesterday used fishing as an example: Let's say that you have a rare fish named "The King of the Rivers" that can be used to make something extremely nice. Is it better to simply have that be a very low chance to obtain (for example, 0.2%), OR, should it be a higher chance, such as 5%, but only when you're using the right bait, with a legendary rod, and it's raining at nighttime during a full moon?
The answers that came back in Discord were that people preferred having more factors affect success than just having things be a percentage chance. People who responded felt that tools, skill, and environmental conditions should all matter in terms of whether you could hook The King of the Rivers.
Obviously, it doesn't make much sense for the weather to affect your success chance as a miner - but, ideally, I think that each type of gathering should have its own type of complexity that governs your ability to get those coveted rare materials.
So, for the roundtable question - how would you set up the "requirements" for obtaining rares in each gathering category? What should players need to be able to obtain a rare resource from gathering? How should gathering activities like mining or woodcutting work differently from activities like fishing or skinning? What do you think would be fun and interesting and "feel" right in the world, without making things too complicated or burdensome?
It should definitely be both. They each have their own purpose. The percentage based limiter contains the number of those items in the world. Letes take fishing. You uhave x number of hours being spend fishing, you will drop x amount of items. But that means that some lvl 1 can just throw his line in and get lucky right next to a master fisher who spends considerable time fishing hasn't been able to get that drop. So you insert a level multiplier to your rare drop, set the original percentage lower to account for the more likelihood of better fishermen catching more. As players grow up, you will have many master fishermen and that should affect the drop rate again, changing those percentages to accomodate.
But, none of that is fun or challenging to a player. On the player fun side, there should be limiters that dont allow for the lvl 1 to catch that rare fish, for instance. It should take coin, tying back in to xp'ing or at least some other job other than just fishing, and it should take other forms of crafting to increase social interaction. So, example:
lvl 1 to catch a rare fish x: 1.01% drop rate
lvl 10 to catch a rare fish x: 1.21% drop rate, gaining two hundredths for each lvl.
lvl 60 to catch a rare fish x: 2.21% drop rate, over twice as likely to catch than lvl 1.
but wait, there's limiters
lvl 1 to catch a epic fish y: 0% drop rate
lvl 10 to catch a epic fish y: 0% drop rate
lvl 60 to catch a epic fish y: 0% drop rate
lvl 1 with crafted, magical fishing pole to catch a epic fish y: 0.005% + box checked and 10% modifier to your level, 0.0011%
lvl 10 with crafted, magical fishing pole to catch a epic fish y: 0.05%, 5x multiplier to your level+ box checked and 10% modifer to your level, 0.055%
lvl 60 with crafted, magical fishing pole to catch a epic fish y: 0.3%, 5x multiplier to your level + box checked and 10% modifier to your level, 0.33%
These limiters could and should tie into crafting level, gear, consumables like bait, money sinks, BUT...
The greatest modifier for something like this would come from a checked box from Perception. You spoke to an old man after earning his respect reaching a certain level in fishing or presenting him with a rare fish, and he imparts a secret way to flip your wrist while your line is in to attract the epic fish that only is catchable between the hours of midnight and dawn. Gear check, level check, perception check, time check, and drop rate with possible modifiers.
That is immersive crafting that is challenging, that ties into other systems in the game for the content, and is a whole lot of fun to track down. Even having obvious clues in the surroundings like Joppa has mentioned before, like the old man is in his house sitting at a table with a frickin huge fish on a plate makes a fisherman wonder, how can i catch that thing. Maybe I can find out somehow from this old man. That would be awesome.
P.S.: Fishing is lame...
A rare should be available at any skill level, using any quality tools, etc. What changes is the modifiers to the equation that would determine the percentage change of obtaining that rare. All you can do is increase the probablity of hitting that magic number through increase of applicable skill; using a higher quality/tier tool; attempting it during optimal times of the day and/or under certain weather conditions (if applicable).
So for your fishing example, which we discussed in Discord, you would see your probability increase if you were fishing at dusk/dawn in the rain while using a mithril spinner lure with cockatrice down on the end of your high tier crafted fishing pole.
Nephele said:So, for the roundtable question - how would you set up the "requirements" for obtaining rares in each gathering category? What should players need to be able to obtain a rare resource from gathering? How should gathering activities like mining or woodcutting work differently from activities like fishing or skinning? What do you think would be fun and interesting and "feel" right in the world, without making things too complicated or burdensome?
I still need to distill my thoughts on this topic.
What I want to say for now; What are rares for and how do they influence the overall resources availability?
I'm playing with the idea where rares are part of a resource sink "design".
How you define what a rare is or should be, can impact how the resource system is perceived and designed as a whole.
And just for that, I find that it's a requirement to keep an open mind. Instead of staying within the mindset of current mmo's. A style where there are common and rare goods. In the long term, you can see how that design impacted the durability of the economy and resource value and item identity.
It's fun to think about the complexity you can add to the requirements of harvesting a rare..but Rares as a "thing" in the game goes much much further than this. And by already defining/specifying the context around obtainement of rares, can really be seen as jumping the gun/skipping some valueable design options. They might differ greatly and for many it might be just inconceivable.
I've enjoyed harvesting rares but does it weigh out the negative effect of the piles of common resources you gather at the same time? Do you immediately pull down the value of items constructed from those common resources? Is a low % rate on rares any solution at all? It could be considered to be devastating to the economy.
So, for the roundtable question - how would you set up the "requirements" for obtaining rares in each gathering category? What should players need to be able to obtain a rare resource from gathering? How should gathering activities like mining or woodcutting work differently from activities like fishing or skinning? What do you think would be fun and interesting and "feel" right in the world, without making things too complicated or burdensome?
Personally I would keep it simple, and close to how it works in the real world, including skill levels.
Hello. In the example of fishing. I like having skills that enables you to catch better vs the rng system. The more you fish (craft-tailoring, smithing, etc), the better the results and not based on rng. Its really frustrating with rng system. Environment (weather, location, condition), tools (fishing rod, bait, hook, etc), skills/spells (enhanced/buffs) seems better then rng system. Master fisher spends hours, only able to catch 4 fish and one rare. Random player who never fished, tries it out for a few mins, catches 4 rare fish.
For crafters who spends hours and hours on end to skill up, to get to the next level/tier, the reward is worth it. Then to have an adventurer who dabbles in crafting and get a legendary/epic sword/item on his/her first try. Hopefully we will be able to get first hand experience when crafting comes out and see how much work will be needed to tweek it, at least the pre alphas folks will. Rest of us will have to wait, watch vids and read forum lol.
Weather, time of day, season, bait, pole (a king of the river would surely break a basic pole) location on the waterway.
Age of the node, location of the node (hard to reach)
Season, age of Tree, type of tree, location of tree(northern or southern hemisphere), tree or an aged log
Season, age of plant(a wilted lilly, wait too long it's a rotted lilly), type of plant, location of plant(northern or southern hemisphere), plant or seeds
Season (molting/shedding), knife being used, type of animal, age of animal(not "old bear" but how long since the bear spawned)
See all the above
The most I would like to direct is the age of the node, newbie zones that are mass camped will never likely produce a rare item. Rare items would be found in remote locations where people seldom travel, nodes that have been UP for 2-3 real world days (or whatever time seemed to work)
Rares should be ....rare. Nothing whatsoever should be able to make them even close to commonplace. That said, going from .001 to .002 chance would not undercut this basic premise.
Many things *could* impact the chance of getting a rare - and the yield from the rare. Whether His Majesty produces 5 pieces of sashemi or 6. Harvesting tools and harvesting gear as in Vanguard, for example. Many other things as discussed by others.
Two global considerations apply to whether what could be done, should be done.
1. How much extra programming work would it take? Will it delay alpha, beta or launch? No single enhancement to crafting is likely to be a problem but there have been literally hundreds of good ideas. I would prefer a robust but simpler system rather than a wonderfully complex one that would casue delays and maximise the chance of numerous bugs. Other than the bugs His Majesty surfaces to eat.
2. How much strain would be put on the server? Keeping track of more factors, pretty much by definition, increases lag and the chance of crashes. Not an issue if we have orders of magnitude extra capacity built in but this is ...highly unlikely.
I've stated my OPINIONS on rares vs. common mats/raws several times, but this seems as good a place as any..
I don't think there should be rare versions of any mats/raws, globally. So, if there is 'a_jute_stalk" , I don't think there should be "a_quality_jute_stalk" or similar.
Instead, harvesting/farming actions, up to the the tier cap, in a particular zone, region, or biome, should produce the appropriate 'normal' or 'required' materials for that zone, region or biome.
Once harvesting skill has exceeded the tier cap, then a second loot table is available that contains unusual, atypical, or different materials, which again, are still unique for that zone, region, or biome. They're not rare, they're just different.
In practice, this means if my harvesting skill for tier 1 (content levels 1-9) has a max of 9, when I reach skill 10, then I can harvest all the materials for that tier. From skill 1-9, I can harvest everything I need. At skill 10+, I can harvest bonuses or extras that are only required for rare and/or disposable and/or group-required recipes. Not rare harvests, mats or raws, but rather, rare recipes.
As random examples, a solo harvester can get all the wood, stone, ore, skins, and plants they need as output materials to carpentry, masonry, smelting, skinning, and/or weaving.
From skill 10+, they can get various other mats/raws, which are explicitly not rare versions of the skill 1-9 mats/raws. They are all distinct, with distinct/unique names & properties.
Once above the skill cap, optionally, you could permit the player the ability to choose what mats/raws they get, based on tool quality, equipment quality, or both. This allows more freedom of choice for the player.
Optionally, the ability to obtain these bonus materials could be tied to a buff system, whereby without the buff, you can't access the extra/bonus materials required for rare recipes.
How, when, and where this buff is obtained leads to a huge range of content options, involving potentially many other game loops, if desired.
It could also simply be a "keen senses" toggle the player can switch on and off at will, or is gained from certain equipment/tool enchantments.
It may be desirable to place certain properties, effects, and materials uniquely in each tier, rather than having ALL effects in ALL tiers. This can allow for more flexibility in design goals as well.
There's obvious gains here for Level 50 content, being tier 6, technically (1-9,10-19,20-29,30-39,40-49,50-59). Obtaining recipes and materials should follow the same progression, regardless.
---
What's the point? If rare/common versions of everything exist, both as inputs and outputs, then the resulting items need to have (at least slightly) disparate results, otherwise, there's no point to common/rare.
If you make the results thematically similar (which they should be, if logic prevails and the game context is thematically/internally consistent) then the common versions eventually become pointless and/or useless.
And/Or people want conversions from common to rare, so if you gather 10, 20, 50, 100, or 1000 of some common, you can trade them all in to get a rare. Because people only really want the rare outputs, the rare inputs are (eventually) the only thing of value. All of these historically failed attempts simply contribute to the same "crit is the new normal" or "rare is the new common" problem of inflation, over time.
Instead, by moving the "rare" target from harvesting to recipes, you don't need to treat any mats or raws 'differently' with respect to drop rate or anything that. All the basic/required/needed recipes use all the basic/required/needed mats. Of course, all mats/raws having no sellback/sale/coin value of any kind to any NPC, ever, is a requirement. It may also be desirable that all bonus recipes are disposable or have limited charges, and/or cannot be scribed in the recipe book. Or not, depending on goals and implementation features. You can create the desired emergent player behavior based on the design goals.
Finally, all of the above does not require the use of a node based harvesting/farming system, for raws/mats. Hopefully, such a system is not used, for all the terrible reasons history has demonstrated.
In the example given with "The King of the Rivers" I am going to propose a third option: Allow the chance to catch this fish to be 0% unless the conditions, gear, and skill meets a requirement. Then, and only then, should the chance be "very low" (e.g. 0.2%) to make the catch. This preserves rarity, and really drives home the feelings of accomplishment, memorability, and excitement when it is finally caught. This would be very in-line with the Pantheon game tenets "True challenge creates the most truly rewarding experience" and "A belief that game economies should be predicated on delaying and minimizing item value deflation."
I can follow Vjek's statement for a big portion of it.
In a game where rares should or will excist, I don't see rares as being the resources to produce the next best item. Or where rares are required to produce tier 1.2 items with 1.2 recipes.
The meaning of 'Rare' would be just about the resource itself and not where it's used for.
So this would mean that you can have common recipes where you need that 'uncommon' resource. There is no next level upgrade recipe. The difficulty lies with the rarity of 1 or multiple resources needed to craft that item.
The rare resource is actually a not uncommon resource requirement. But because you don't find it as often as other resources, it will be perceived as more valueable compared to other resources.
How the resource becomes rare? I believe many suggestions already have been made. But I would like to state something very clear.
You do not harvest a rare from T1 because you use a T100 tool. Please do not allow that in your game. You harvest a T1 rare because you're using a T1 tool. And you're NOT able to harvest a T1 rare with anything BUT that T1 tool. This to keep the value of tools or other equipment/harvesting requirements within each tier. Similar to how it's the most fun when you fight a lvl 10 mob when you're lvl 10 yourself and it is perceived as less fun/challenging when you're a lvl 100 fighting a level 10.
Rare harvesting conditions are: using the proper tool at the correct time. While you're proficient enough or when you've familiarized yourself enough to succesfullly harvest a rare.
Factors that can be added to the "harvest a rare circumstances":
1) your harvesting skill (any surplus above the Tier cap is not adding anymore. Meaning that purely based on skills: a skill of 20 will allow harvesting a rare with equal chance as would a skill level of 600. There is no need to exceed in benefits based on skill level alone.) You want to prevent skill level becoming a required grind!
2) environmental conditions: night or daytime (not going too complex with this one factor)
3) season: as far as I know that's 1 out of four that your chances on a rare would be increased (or decreased)
4) tool requirement: Where a basic tool of that tier allows you to harvest the common goods of that specific tier. Special tools could allow you to hunt for rares when the time is right (aka when 'the stars align')
5) node description: I like the idea of two kinds of nodes. Where both will offer common resources but one of them will have an increase chance of providing a rare. I've experienced such a thing in other games and found it quite thrilling. It was fun even though many times I would not harvest a rare. The node with the increased chance, would be less common or indeed also placed in less populated/frequently visited places. For those harvesters that earn their living with it, they will know the land and will seek out those places in the hope to encounter those nodes a second time, etc.
6) familiarity with that specific tool: This is a special one from me, this is a stat calculated by the amount of times that you used that specific tier tool (in total?). This has nothing to do with your skill level. So for example; you can start with a T1 sickle and skill 0. You skill up while using that sickle 20 times. Your skill might have risen to 10. Aside of that skill level, the total attempt with that sickle are recorded. This becomes a beneficial factor when you're going to hunt for those T1 rares. The more you use that T1 sickle, the more you'll increase that chance of harvesting a rare. (the increase margin is still low obviously, but present).
7) other conditions. I end this vaguely, because I think it's just too out there to really implement in a game. Things would get too complex for what it's meant to be. Sure you can imagine wheather, moisture carrying capacity, toxicity level in the surroundings, heat or cold, windshear, equipement or clothing enhanced with temporal boons specially created for hunting rares...being added factors into the equation of getting a rare. It sounds nice but in practice I fear it will stretch too far and would demand too many resources to be worthwhile with a good chance of bugs occuring.
Overall, I like the idea of logging in and recognizing the conditions in the world, thinking.. There will be quite a few harvesters out in the world hunting for rares while these temporary conditions present themselves. It stimulates the idea of an active living world.
In the case of fishing anyone should be able to grab a pole and hit the waters to relax and have a chance at a lucky strike for any fish. Skill plays a Hugh part in fishing reliably, knowing what bait to use, and at what time of day, what spot ect.. But fish are not 100% predictable and will bite on someones bait who’s just out to relax.
Fishing is a bit unique in that I don't see people out skinning hides for relaxation, but casual fishing is a thing, and luck does play a part in fishing.
To fish reliably, meaning fishing with a set fish in mind, and have a reasonable chance at catching it, a skill tree would be what I prefer for any harvesting type on a commercial level.