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Crafter's Roundtable: Gathering and "Rares"

    • 1723 posts
    August 13, 2020 9:24 AM PDT

    This is cross-posted from Pantheon Crafters

    Yesterday I asked a few questions in various discords to see how people thought gathering rare materials should work. Today I wanted to expand that into a full-fledged roundtable.

    As a reminder, gathering potentially encompasses several different activities in Pantheon:

    • Fishing
    • Mining
    • Woodcutting
    • Harvesting Plants
    • Skinning
    • Scavenging

    The questions I asked yesterday used fishing as an example: Let's say that you have a rare fish named "The King of the Rivers" that can be used to make something extremely nice. Is it better to simply have that be a very low chance to obtain (for example, 0.2%), OR, should it be a higher chance, such as 5%, but only when you're using the right bait, with a legendary rod, and it's raining at nighttime during a full moon?

    The answers that came back in Discord were that people preferred having more factors affect success than just having things be a percentage chance. People who responded felt that tools, skill, and environmental conditions should all matter in terms of whether you could hook The King of the Rivers.

    Obviously, it doesn't make much sense for the weather to affect your success chance as a miner - but, ideally, I think that each type of gathering should have its own type of complexity that governs your ability to get those coveted rare materials.

    So, for the roundtable question - how would you set up the "requirements" for obtaining rares in each gathering category? What should players need to be able to obtain a rare resource from gathering? How should gathering activities like mining or woodcutting work differently from activities like fishing or skinning? What do you think would be fun and interesting and "feel" right in the world, without making things too complicated or burdensome?


    This post was edited by Nephele at August 13, 2020 9:42 AM PDT
    • 75 posts
    August 13, 2020 1:38 PM PDT

    It should definitely be both.  They each have their own purpose.  The percentage based limiter contains the number of those items in the world.  Letes take fishing. You uhave x number of hours being spend fishing, you will drop x amount of items.  But that means that some lvl 1 can just throw his line in and get lucky right next to a master fisher who spends considerable time fishing hasn't been able to get that drop.  So you insert a level multiplier to your rare drop, set the original percentage lower to account for the more likelihood of better fishermen catching more.  As players grow up, you will have many master fishermen and that should affect the drop rate again, changing those percentages to accomodate.

    But, none of that is fun or challenging to a player.  On the player fun side, there should be limiters that dont allow for the lvl 1 to catch that rare fish, for instance.  It should take coin, tying back in to xp'ing or at least some other job other than just fishing, and it should take other forms of crafting to increase social interaction.  So, example:

    lvl 1 to catch a rare fish x: 1.01% drop rate

    lvl 10 to catch a rare fish x: 1.21% drop rate, gaining two hundredths for each lvl.

    lvl 60 to catch a rare fish x: 2.21% drop rate, over twice as likely to catch than lvl 1.

    but wait, there's limiters

    lvl 1 to catch a epic fish y: 0% drop rate

    lvl 10 to catch a epic fish y: 0% drop rate

    lvl 60 to catch a epic fish y: 0% drop rate

    lvl 1 with crafted, magical fishing pole to catch a epic fish y: 0.005% + box checked and 10% modifier to your level, 0.0011%

    lvl 10 with crafted, magical fishing pole to catch a epic fish y: 0.05%, 5x multiplier to your level+ box checked and 10% modifer to your level, 0.055%

    lvl 60 with crafted, magical fishing pole to catch a epic fish y: 0.3%, 5x multiplier to your level + box checked and 10% modifier to your level, 0.33%

     

    These limiters could and should tie into crafting level, gear, consumables like bait, money sinks, BUT...

    The greatest modifier for something like this would come from a checked box from Perception.  You spoke to an old man after earning his respect reaching a certain level in fishing or presenting him with a rare fish, and he imparts a secret way to flip your wrist while your line is in to attract the epic fish that only is catchable between the hours of midnight and dawn.  Gear check, level check, perception check, time check, and drop rate with possible modifiers.

    That is immersive crafting that is challenging, that ties into other systems in the game for the content, and is a whole lot of fun to track down.  Even having obvious clues in the surroundings like Joppa has mentioned before, like the old man is in his house sitting at a table with a frickin huge fish on a plate makes a fisherman wonder, how can i catch that thing.  Maybe I can find out somehow from this old man.  That would be awesome.

    P.S.: Fishing is lame...

    • 2027 posts
    August 13, 2020 4:27 PM PDT

    A rare should be available at any skill level, using any quality tools, etc.  What changes is the modifiers to the equation that would determine the percentage change of obtaining that rare.  All you can do is increase the probablity of hitting that magic number through increase of applicable skill; using a higher quality/tier tool; attempting it during optimal times of the day and/or under certain weather conditions (if applicable).

    So for your fishing example, which we discussed in Discord, you would see your probability increase if you were fishing at dusk/dawn in the rain while using a mithril spinner lure with cockatrice down on the end of your high tier crafted fishing pole.

    • 647 posts
    August 18, 2020 11:38 PM PDT

    Nephele said:

    So, for the roundtable question - how would you set up the "requirements" for obtaining rares in each gathering category? What should players need to be able to obtain a rare resource from gathering? How should gathering activities like mining or woodcutting work differently from activities like fishing or skinning? What do you think would be fun and interesting and "feel" right in the world, without making things too complicated or burdensome? 

    I still need to distill my thoughts on this topic.

    What I want to say for now; What are rares for and how do they influence the overall resources availability? 

    I'm playing with the idea where rares are part of a resource sink "design". 

    How you define what a rare is or should be, can impact how the resource system is perceived and designed as a whole. 

    And just for that, I find that it's a requirement to keep an open mind. Instead of staying within the mindset of current mmo's. A style where there are common and rare goods. In the long term, you can see how that design impacted the durability of the economy and resource value and item identity. 

    It's fun to think about the complexity you can add to the requirements of harvesting a rare..but Rares as a "thing" in the game goes much much further than this. And by already defining/specifying the context around obtainement of rares, can really be seen as jumping the gun/skipping some valueable design options. They might differ greatly and for many it might be just inconceivable.

    I've enjoyed harvesting rares but does it weigh out the negative effect of the piles of common resources you gather at the same time? Do you immediately pull down the value of items constructed from those common resources? Is a low % rate on rares any solution at all? It could be considered to be devastating to the economy.


    This post was edited by Barin999 at August 18, 2020 11:45 PM PDT
    • 1 posts
    August 20, 2020 1:50 PM PDT

     

    So, for the roundtable question - how would you set up the "requirements" for obtaining rares in each gathering category? What should players need to be able to obtain a rare resource from gathering? How should gathering activities like mining or woodcutting work differently from activities like fishing or skinning? What do you think would be fun and interesting and "feel" right in the world, without making things too complicated or burdensome?

     

    Personally I would keep it simple, and close to how it works in the real world, including skill levels. 

     

    • Fishing - Depends on what your getting but I would think some items would be a low % random, like a specific fish meat for example while others would be be from a named, like a specific special scale or eye for example. I would think time of day, location, weather and time of year would also play a factor as well. 

     

    • Mining - I think this would only be based on a low % random 

     

    • Woodcutting - For this one, I would think the location, weather and time of year would be a factor, along with it being a low % random. However how the wood is cut or designed and a skill associated with that as well could also be a factor, along with the tool used to do it. 

     

    • Harvesting Plants - For this one, I would think the location, weather and time of year would be a factor, along with it being a low % random.

     

    • Skinning - Same as fishing

     

    • Scavenging - Same as mining 

     


    This post was edited by Colt at August 20, 2020 1:54 PM PDT