Good ideas here, except under no circumstances do I ever want a lower-level character able to temporarily increase their level upward. Mentoring down is fine.
Don't underestimate the importance of robust LFG bulletin-board effect. One that obviously focused on players being aware of what other players are looking for, and also what existing groups would like to find, but without any match-making or teleporting features whatsoever. Just a bulletin board effect.
In fact, I would suggest actual bulletin boards in cities, towns or anywhere deemed appropriate regionally:
1. It gives a more realistic feel to incorporating a LFG tool in-game.
2. It allows for nearby/regional display automatically (based on info that is part of the standard way players register their "ads", like a checklist of dungeons or zone regions they are interested in), in addition to the full listings.
3. If a global map, either static or one with fog-of-war that only partially uncovers areas you have actually been to already, is allowed, then let me (multi-)select regions via the map instead of just textually in a dropdown box to indicate where I am interested in going. Look at the zoomed-out map in LOTRO with its circled '+' to show where a region or zone is for an example, and imagine being able to multi-select using those which highlight the ones you have picked. If no maps are allowed (even just a global map, no detailed zone zoom), then forget this idea.
Independent race/faction cities and lack of "everyone can fast travel" also played a vital role in ensuring that higher level players were consistently coming across lower level players as they encountered them in newbie areas on their way to and fro cities.
With regards to dungeons, Vaand hit the nail on the head.... Portions of dungeons should be segmented and designed for varying ranges of player levels to ensure that there is a good mix of levels "populating" a zone.
Actually I will harp on the importance of the whole "marvel at the mystery of higher level players and content" thing.
Factors in my fondest and longest-lasting memories in EQ and older games in general, related to this concept:
- seeing players with gear I did not recognize nor had access to (yet), made me wonder where they have gone and where they might be off to next
- areas, cities, mobs, gear you only hear about indirectly in whispers makes them seem exotic and far-off, and makes you want to someday discover and explore them yourself
- having higher level groups form up for an excursion in your area, because areas are adjacent to higher-level areas and dungeons so higher level players tend to stage in your lower level towns, further enhances this idea as posts like Vands illustrates
- orienting travel and pathways such that higher levels tend to travel through lower roads and areas, further cements the feeling of a large wild world that you are just beginning to explore
- mystery, lore and more lore alway helps build "world cred"
I remember seeing a level 50 raid for Fear running through Feerrott, and just stopped to watch them run by, trying to figure out for example, who was which class, wondering which gear was from The Planes, wondering which character was the leader, etc. Sort of like how Frodo and Sam watch the elves on the road leaving for the Grey Havens in the EE cut of Fellowship.
Things like this are what a legendary and memorable long-lasting gane evoke.
One more feature of bulletin-board LFG capabilities:
Have a weighted incentives (TBD what exactly they might be) effect automatically enhance those LFG ads which some metric(s) speak to for overall server and grouping success health. And allow a LFG tool listing ads to sort by these criteria amongst other options.
For example, the oldest ads which have not been satisfied yet, per area or dungeon.
But do not allow players to directly "sweeten the pot" by adding rewards they provide themselves, since that just leads to twinks being able to p2w.
We've talked about this many time before today.
In my opinion, I think it requires developers not designing expansion content that permanently takes players away from the lower level areas. In many MMO’s, expansions are designed for players to not have to “return home” so to speak. All the amenities of home are offered elsewhere.
The last thing a new player wants to see is an empty game when they log in. If you want to keep players starting new characters, keep the starting areas busy with activity from other players. Give players a reason, or force them, to have to return to the starting city. Keep things busy and exciting.
Another factor is to require players to make alts rather than "downscaling" or whatever you call it. This would give players a reason to create multiple characters, giving more chance of lower level players around starting area. If people only have one character that can be downscaled, it takes away incentive to make alts. Making alts can also keep the game world busy and appear full at low levels as the game ages.
I also think it’s important that the new content added is done so thoughtfully. If we have enough zones for level 1-10 characters, don’t add more zones which further spread players apart.
Yeah, the answer to this is simple. Extremely rare loot and spell drop chance for items unique to the particular dungeon that are useful throughout the entirety of the game. Talking 0.00001% drop rates, but have them possibly drop from many different mobs in the zone so select spots just can't be camped by high levels looking for that item. Should keep the dungeon heavily populated throughout the life of the game. Just have to sprinkle unique and powerful things throughout all the dungeons. Examples would be something like weight reduction bags, fishbone earring, trinkets, spells, faction bonus drops, unique housing items, unique crafting items. EZ-PZ. Don't even have to worry about replayability with alts, but it also would help there as well.
I was watching the Nathan Napalm video from today ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUCXYjWcP-c ). He mentioned that there will be level syncing and that he talked about it in an earlier video. I then looked into his older videos that might discuss this, which led me to one from 22 MAR 2019, wherein he claims that Pantheon will have a mentoring system that allows characters to level down to group with friends. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BOO_Sp470M
He says this information came from the Q&A section of the March 2019 newsletter. https://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_march_reader_questions/
Nina Felwitch asks: Will it be possible to adjust your level to group members? If I'm level 50 and my friends just started playing, can I play with them without ruining their experience because I kill everything with one hit? Other games let you scale down your level, either by choice or automatically.
CP: The goal is to have a mentoring system like this in place to facilitate higher level players adventuring with lower level players without penalty to those lower level players. Further details yet to come.
I hope to hear more soon. It could definitely help with the new-player experience.
Edit: Nothing in this answer specifically talks about level synchronization, but I suppose that is one way to interpret what Joppa says. He simply says that it will let the two play together without a penalty to the lower-level player.
Not entirely on topic but I'd also like to see new quests/content added to old zones when expansions come out. Nothing major just a few things to get people to still play that older stuff to help encourage new player growth. New gear added to dungeons to get people to want to run that stuff still to check out the new stuff.
Mathir said:Yeah, the answer to this is simple. Extremely rare loot and spell drop chance for items unique to the particular dungeon that are useful throughout the entirety of the game. Talking 0.00001% drop rates, but have them possibly drop from many different mobs in the zone so select spots just can't be camped by high levels looking for that item. Should keep the dungeon heavily populated throughout the life of the game. Just have to sprinkle unique and powerful things throughout all the dungeons. Examples would be something like weight reduction bags, fishbone earring, trinkets, spells, faction bonus drops, unique housing items, unique crafting items. EZ-PZ. Don't even have to worry about replayability with alts, but it also would help there as well.
This. Exactly this.
I must admit I am not impressed with some of VR's recent decisions, but I would hope they 'get' this important concept. Hopefully, VR gets Pantheon right. I really don't want to have to resort to P99 for real challenge, but I will if I must. Like many others, I didn't even come close to seeing everything in Classic EQ. I would not be surprised if P99 has more riskVSreward and rare/ultra rare drop rates than Pantheon does 20+ years later. Perhaps VR proves me wrong, we shall see...
A very large related problem exists at the very start of the game that has potential to kill subscriber numbers.
Basically unless you shard or instance lower level zones you either:
- Build enough low level zones to cope with initial (very high) population - but end up in 1 month with these being 75% empty, even with alts and progeny (not good developer time value)
- Build limited lower level zones but end up with overcrowded newbie areas (driving off potential customers).
Some ideas and ways around this that would alsokeep zones relevant in linked thread:
Galden said:
Basically unless you shard or instance lower level zones you either:
- Build enough low level zones to cope with initial (very high) population - but end up in 1 month with these being 75% empty, even with alts and progeny (not good developer time value)
- Build limited lower level zones but end up with overcrowded newbie areas (driving off potential customers).
I prefer the idea of merging servers once they get past the initial stages rather than sharding or instancing in this way. I hate seeing someone pop in and out of existence to fill a quota somewhere else. I want highly populated but spread evenly as much as that is possible, so as the population begins to disperse, bring the servers together.
NathHaw said:
I prefer the idea of merging servers once they get past the initial stages rather than sharding or instancing in this way. I hate seeing someone pop in and out of existence to fill a quota somewhere else. I want highly populated but spread evenly as much as that is possible, so as the population begins to disperse, bring the servers together.
Agree on instancing. Thread has other ideas. e.g. Temporarly populating higher level areas of zones with lower level mobs for initial period.
Server merge is actually easiest solution , but I think they need to make it very very clear from the start which servers will merge and the reason. e.g. Nagafen A , Nagafen B etc. ... otherwise can imagine the press 'Pantheon closes half of servers after mass exodus one month after opening!'
Or maybe,
Design important and sought after quests, or all quests, in a graduated manner where in order to proceed through the quest , the only way you can get there is by obtaining a certain skill or level and then, have the next step of the quest require an item obtained from a low level or newbie zone but here's the thing:
there's a trivial loot code.
So in order to get that item you have to mentor down to continue the quest, which may lead you to explore or"take in the air" in other environs for a significant period of time before you can continue on with the "main" quest.
This would mean being able to mentor down and mentor back up. (not to be confused with the current idea of progeny where you progeny down and stay down or start over) Where you mentor down to lower level, and as a now level 2 Skar with Level 2 gear, have to go to thronefast and 1. get faction, then 2. meet someone and do a something for the quest but realize after messing about as a level 2 and speaking to other locals- PC's at level 2- that to do that thing you need to be at least level 4 so in this social sandbox manner meet people and do things and adventure there for however long.
Hopefully with enough of a taste that when you complete that bit and mentor back up to continue the original quest now having obtained the items at the approproiate level from having mentored down and working within the trivla loot code, you may weant to go back to that area and explore the higher regiond and put the quest on pause. Because the next step of the quest you foind is to mentor down again but this time, head to syromnai's rest.
The quest is forcing people to mentor down and populate low end zones. this would require the player to take a different view of game play, perhaps a lomnger term view while keeping a trivial loot code for quest items only (not TS stuff). Combining a shroud idea, maybe the mentoring down for the TLC'd quest item could also include a forced class play for instance, you are a level 20 Skar War, to proceed with the quest you now have ot mentor down to a level 2 skar.....Bard. In thronefast. You wake up outside the gates, you con the guards, and they are hostile, you back up a bit to be sure you are out of sight and suddenly you hear "dude, wtf are you? and what are you doing here?" you reply "xbf yoo helf mi?" and the human newbies look at each other and then at you and ask "what did you say?" This may satisfy the alt-oholics and allow the budget conscious to get thier fix, with one account. IF this can be done, I am speculating. But the quest related mentoring down is a neat idea and might give a taste to make future decisions for progeny decisions.
The problem with merging servers and such afterwards, is names. Either a name has to be taken across all servers, or people will be forced to change their names. For example, we'll say Thrasher is a name I want; now with me taking that name, no one on any server can have that name at all , even if they don't even play in my time zone, especially if we are on servers that will eventually merge. If I take the name Thrasher and someone else has that name on another server, and they eventually merge our servers, one of us is going to have to change names. At that point there are several questions that come into play.
-How does VR decide who changes names?
-Does it go on play time?
-Does it go on level?
-Does it go on account creation date?
I can assure you, both myself and the other person are not going to be willing to give up the name at all, after how much time is expected to put into these characters. No way it's going to happen. If you also put the limit where the name Thrasher can't be used on any server after it has been taken, even if the two of us never have a chance of seeing each other, but one day might have the slight chance; then that comes with its own problems as well.
As for the whole mentoring thing and forced socialization, if you have to force Person A to talk to anyone; then there is a very good chance Person A isn't going to like anyone they talk to at all. The same could be said the other way around too, if you have to force people to socialize with you, then there is a good chance that the person you are trying to force into socialization with you, wouldn't have like you if socializing happened naturally anyways. This is a game, making friends while playing should be something done naturally, not forced. I can tell you, I'm not playing a game to make friends or socialize. Sure, if I find people that I enjoy playing with and are nice people, then I'll be more willing to hang out with them for a dungeon; but I'm not here to make friends, I have a life outside of games to make friends and talk to real friends with. I'm not playing my game to log in for hours just to chat, I can do that on Skype or even go and meet up with friends for a day out. I can even text or email to socialize.
Forcing people to socialize in any way is a good start in getting the community to start to hate one another, it's like an office space at that point. Let's say you have 5 people in one section of cubicles, and there is one of the 5 that just rubs people the wrong way, even if they act friendly and whatnot. Every day these people have to go into the same office and deal with this person, being friendly and nice to them, even though none of them like this person. the more and more time they spend with this person, the more and more they don't like them, until eventually, the other 4 just do everything in their power to not talk to them, even going so far as to work with someone else outside of their cubicle space. they are never going to like that person because of how much they have actually had to spend time with that person, and now, this other person is being forced to interact with the other 4. Let's say now that the new person doesn't like the other 4, because they can see what's going on and they think the other 4 are idiots for their actions, but now they are being forced to interact with them and in turn repeating the cycle.
OCastitatisLilium said:The problem with merging servers and such afterwards, is names. Either a name has to be taken across all servers, or people will be forced to change their names. For example, we'll say Thrasher is a name I want; now with me taking that name, no one on any server can have that name at all , even if they don't even play in my time zone, especially if we are on servers that will eventually merge. If I take the name Thrasher and someone else has that name on another server, and they eventually merge our servers, one of us is going to have to change names. At that point there are several questions that come into play.
-How does VR decide who changes names?
-Does it go on play time?
-Does it go on level?
-Does it go on account creation date?I can assure you, both myself and the other person are not going to be willing to give up the name at all, after how much time is expected to put into these characters. No way it's going to happen. If you also put the limit where the name Thrasher can't be used on any server after it has been taken, even if the two of us never have a chance of seeing each other, but one day might have the slight chance; then that comes with its own problems as well.
As for the whole mentoring thing and forced socialization, if you have to force Person A to talk to anyone; then there is a very good chance Person A isn't going to like anyone they talk to at all. The same could be said the other way around too, if you have to force people to socialize with you, then there is a good chance that the person you are trying to force into socialization with you, wouldn't have like you if socializing happened naturally anyways. This is a game, making friends while playing should be something done naturally, not forced. I can tell you, I'm not playing a game to make friends or socialize. Sure, if I find people that I enjoy playing with and are nice people, then I'll be more willing to hang out with them for a dungeon; but I'm not here to make friends, I have a life outside of games to make friends and talk to real friends with. I'm not playing my game to log in for hours just to chat, I can do that on Skype or even go and meet up with friends for a day out. I can even text or email to socialize.
Forcing people to socialize in any way is a good start in getting the community to start to hate one another, it's like an office space at that point. Let's say you have 5 people in one section of cubicles, and there is one of the 5 that just rubs people the wrong way, even if they act friendly and whatnot. Every day these people have to go into the same office and deal with this person, being friendly and nice to them, even though none of them like this person. the more and more time they spend with this person, the more and more they don't like them, until eventually, the other 4 just do everything in their power to not talk to them, even going so far as to work with someone else outside of their cubicle space. they are never going to like that person because of how much they have actually had to spend time with that person, and now, this other person is being forced to interact with the other 4. Let's say now that the new person doesn't like the other 4, because they can see what's going on and they think the other 4 are idiots for their actions, but now they are being forced to interact with them and in turn repeating the cycle.
Socialization is a critical component of MMO's. This has been lost along the way somewhere in the last 20 years. If you are against socialization, then an MMO with tenants in place to ensure there is socialization may not be for you. There are plenty of single player and coop RPG's out there though.
arazons said:Socialization is a critical component of MMO's. This has been lost along the way somewhere in the last 20 years. If you are against socialization, then an MMO with tenants in place to ensure there is socialization may not be for you. There are plenty of single player and coop RPG's out there though.
I never said I was against socialization, I'm against forced socialization. I even stated that it should happen naturally, and not be forced, but it appears you either missed that or didn't read it correctly. I just don't plan on making friends in a game, that's just really it. I've already pledged to it, so I'm going to play the game as I want to play it. Besides, I think the last thing you really want to do is turn people away from Pantheon just because they might not like one single aspect of it as much as you think they should or want them to. Pantheon needs all the funding it can get so the game can come out faster, and suggesting people don't pledge will only extend the length of time its taking to make the game and see a release date.
OCastitatisLilium said:arazons said:Socialization is a critical component of MMO's. This has been lost along the way somewhere in the last 20 years. If you are against socialization, then an MMO with tenants in place to ensure there is socialization may not be for you. There are plenty of single player and coop RPG's out there though.
I never said I was against socialization, I'm against forced socialization. I even stated that it should happen naturally, and not be forced, but it appears you either missed that or didn't read it correctly. I just don't plan on making friends in a game, that's just really it. I've already pledged to it, so I'm going to play the game as I want to play it. Besides, I think the last thing you really want to do is turn people away from Pantheon just because they might not like one single aspect of it as much as you think they should or want them to. Pantheon needs all the funding it can get so the game can come out faster, and suggesting people don't pledge will only extend the length of time its taking to make the game and see a release date.
Never mentioned turning anyone away. Simply stating that this is going to be a social game whether you like forced socialization or not and as such it may not be your cup of tea.
OCastitatisLilium said:-How does VR decide who changes names?
-Does it go on account creation date?
I think you probably group perspective merged servers from the start for a names purpose.
Merging mature servers is another matter though, as can cause lots of upset e.g. 2 endgame guilds to 4 contesting content.
Trasak said:There is a big different between revisiting zones and revisiting content.
It is fairly easy to revisit zones just by having discontinuous level content in the zone. Different areas can have different leveled content and if there is a level gap then players will be forced to move to another zone before returning.
Revisiting zones though is not really the issue revisiting content is.
Encouraging revisiting the same content can be done in several ways.
1) Farmable consumables (actual consumables, raw crafting materials, cash, repeatable quests or faction)
- This is the least desirable method as it involves grinding and high level characters dominating content intended for low level characters.
2) Mentoring
- Some form of horizontal progression where higher level characters temporarily reduce their level to complete the content in a challenging level band, usually with the goal of helping inexperienced players.
I really like these ideas. If mentoring experience could go toward skill point progression, I think that would be enough incentive for players to do that quite a bit.
I know classes will have a few epic skills to eventually get, but I hope races have their own "epic tools" to earn through the world. Giving mastery points through these chains as well as the final useful tool. I say tool since it would be something you don't just want to throw away as it is not a gear drop that would be replaced. Jboots, mana stones, pegasus cloak, a light producing whisp could all be epic quest rewards. Useful unique items you would never just throw away.
You want the best tool for climbing icewalls in the game? Better gain the love of the dwarves, do the dwarven "epic quest" to obtain this item. Obviously your own race wouldn't need faction really and would flow naturally if you followed the home city quest line.
You want the best tool for going under water in the game? Better gain the trust of the dark myr and do their epic chain.
Point is something like this would give a great reason to go to every low level area to obtain the factions and do all these questlines. Simple motivations are really helpful.
Darch said:Trasak said:There is a big different between revisiting zones and revisiting content.
[...]
Revisiting zones though is not really the issue revisiting content is.
Encouraging revisiting the same content can be done in several ways.
[..]
2) Mentoring
- Some form of horizontal progression where higher level characters temporarily reduce their level to complete the content in a challenging level band, usually with the goal of helping inexperienced players.
I really like these ideas. If mentoring experience could go toward skill point progression, I think that would be enough incentive for players to do that quite a bit.
This is more in line as to what I ws trying to express. Ocasti pointed out the forced socialization aspect of it. My P.O.V was also to try to re-ignite that new MMO feeling over and over again through the quest mechanic- but in a manner that the player could choose to do at any time. My idea was instead of skill point progression being the motivator have a quest line be the motivator with- as mentioned above- faction being additional immersive fluff and contributing to arm-chair adventuring. However, in a single tight group that never expands its members "Us four and no more, shut the door" I can see how this could be an issue unless they are all doing the same quest at the same time.
If they are not doing the same quest, one person will have to split off or choose not to. Which would make the quest design hard to implement IF the design was for pre-made groups in RL coming into game and NOT- random people from across the world coming into an Massively Multi-Player On Line Role Playing Game, into the devs world and...discovering, and re-discovering.
Perhaps the skill point might idea be more ameneable, and not as limiting to advancement or fluid play as a quest mechanic tied to a TLC or a drop tied to a necessary level/character flag.
The mentoring could be merged with the AA idea, perhaps. The core of the idea would be to help newbies (forced socialization?) but in practice it could evolve into a playstyle like managing AA's.
Or your tight knit friend group and one friend has to break for a period of time due to RL reasons and when they come back they are behind, but the rest of you can force yourselves to mentor down to level him up and show them wonderous things or stop playing when they stopped and join up when all together and not have to deal with mentoring.
The topic "Living Cities" ( http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12242/living-cities ) got me thinking about how that concept of updating spaces/NPC's by switching them out on a periodic basis could be combined with enlivening old zones by having some event like the innkeeper's telling of the diplomat who was on her way to the city but never showed for her reservation. This could lead to a quest that week into an older dungeon under a castle after hearing a rumor that the diplomat was last seen skirting that castle's walls. This could maybe be a few simple lines of text that would take up almost no time to write but would give the devs an easy new quest. These could each be fresh instead of repeating the same rotating quests that just act as a way to get someone to log in.
Maybe another idea could be the blacksmith is missing an ore to finish her spouse's decorative gift before the celebration the following week (giving the weekly quest a real-time limitation that also makes sense in game).
You might be asking how hard thinking up periodic quests could be. Perhaps it would be somewhat difficult but probably worth it. They don't have to be good. No one will probably care that much. One solution to help combat this anyway might be to have a player-submitted quest of the week on the website, where we could write the questlines and the devs could use or alter the idea as needed. This could make for some really awesome ideas and some not-so-awesome ones that work for the periodic quest to get players helping out lower levels. Again, it doesn't need to be poetry. Pantheon has a pretty unique relationship with its base, and I think this could serve as another way to enhance the relationship and give a sense of agency to the fans.