For the last three days asking in world chat here and there, I have tried to get a group together for a dungeon that is about level 50 in Classic WoW (the max level is 60). Just to illustrate how busy my faction on this server is: There were so many people in the main city that my RTX 2080 was even at one point the other day getting only 18 frames per second. Classic WoW does not typically push higher-end graphics cards much, but during big events it can. The server can't handle the number of people at once sometimes too, and it will lag out or disconnect people. The server has been featured on the popular Twitch streamer Asmongold's show due to how overpopulated it can be sometimes for my side. The reason I set up this post with this anecdote is instill how this server seems like the prime setting for being able to find a group. I haven't been able to find that group yet for the last few days, and it makes me wonder what plans Pantheon might have to combat something like this, if any.
In FFXIV, there is a system that allows syncing of player levels, so that characters of different level ranges can play dungeons together and benefit from rewards that are appropriate for their respective levels. This allows daily quests into dungeons to get formed up much more easily than a game without level syncing where a high-level character might have no incentive to join a dungeon that was first accessible at a much lower level. This syncing feature involves queueing up to be automatically placed together in a group to complete the dungeon. I think this automatic system works OK for FFXIV; however, I do not think this is the right system for Pantheon, but what system might be? Could some things at least be borrowed that could work, e.g., level syncing or high-end item drops in a lowbie dungeon for a high level character?
Have you had any thoughts about what Pantheon can do to make newcomers feel pertinent long after most people have moved past a zone or dungeon? Will players have a reason to return to early areas other than just to help out if someone needs it (which probably won't be sustainable or reliable without decent incentives)? In a game where grouping is going to be one of the main focuses, how will content be experienced when the groups are off on their own adventures, and the new guy/gal has to explore alone? Will the player even stay when he or she can't advance or enjoy the game as it was meant because the zone or dungeons are empty?
Edit: Pantheon is expected to have a mentoring system that could help with this as well, according to the March 2019 newsletter Q&A. https://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_march_reader_questions/
Nina Felwitch asks: Will it be possible to adjust your level to group members? If I'm level 50 and my friends just started playing, can I play with them without ruining their experience because I kill everything with one hit? Other games let you scale down your level, either by choice or automatically.
CP: The goal is to have a mentoring system like this in place to facilitate higher level players adventuring with lower level players without penalty to those lower level players. Further details yet to come.
Hopefully a combination of progeny, players levelling alts, the planned mentor (temporary delevelling) system, low level zones having higher level content and a focus more on the journey as opposed to the 'real game being end game' will alleviate this to a degree!
Given the above it is obviously something they are thinking about and hopefully the plan works!
I think your question is pretty close if not exactly being addressed in this post by Kilsin.
Not answered by VR mind you, you won't get answers from VR here either, but player opinions in this other thread
Adrenicus said:...low level zones having higher level content...
Quite a few of us were talking about this on the Pantheon Discord and the concensus was that when you have sufficiently large enough zones, they can be populated in such a way that you don't work your way through the entirety of the zone before you move on the next zone. Instead you see some parts of the zone at a certain level, lets say levels 10-15, but then there is a gap where you need to go somehwere else for, say, levels 15-20 where you can then come back to the first zone for another go at different content. Rinse and repeat. This way you have this intermixing of lower level characters and higher level character.
One big benefit for this is that lower level players, seeing this higher level players moving past them to parts unknown, then start wanting to be that higher level character to go where they go, to experience what they experience. So long as the higher level characters do not need to tromp all over the lower level content to get to their content, the different groups can co-exist without much interference.
This all, of course, hinges upon there being a reason to come back to a particular zone. That need almost always revolves around a particular piece of loot, or pieces of loot. Terrible itemization will doom a zone to being abandonded, as does a zone that has a horribly unbalanced risk vs reward.
Lastly, to at least give the appearance of zones being utilized more, if for no other reason than to have lower levels characters routinely encountering higher level characters, is to design the connections between zones to require them to constantly pass each other. This means not always having the higher level zones being ever further and further away from cities.
Two things that will help get a group together come to mind. One is to have a very good LFG tool. One that does not rely on world chat or zone chat at all. Many of us ignore chat especially in a zone that is crowded. Those that follow chat miss a lot if things are active and chat scrolls fast. Not a LFG tool that sets groups up and teleports them to the dungeon. One that lets the nascent group advertise (via the tool not via chat) what it needs and puts potential members in touch with the group leader or designated group recruiters.
The other thing is a system that allows higher levels to temporarily reduce their levels to match the level of the group. Or lower levels to temporarily increase their levels. In a way that does not make the higher levels too powerful or the lower levels too weak to be useful - the curse of many current mentoring systems. In a way that allows some benefit to these people but not enough to let lower levels use this to speed-level. The curse of things like level-agnostic dungeons in EQ2 or instant adventures in Rift. This is not trivially easy to design but it is very important for a group-centered game.
Make the death penalty for max level characters include a small but persistent debuff that is worked off only through mentoring a lower level team. The lore explanation could be that your reputation is harmed by dying so you need to build it back up by assisting lower level players.
The best MMO I remember that was able to keep lower-level dungeons active was DDO. While I do not believe the resurrection system they used was the main/only cause for this, I do believe it helped. Hopefully, the Progeny system will be able to help with keeping the lower level content active.
To reiterate on Chogar, progeny is really the answer to keeping all zones active with a good spread on a constant and continual basis. DDO seemed to have done that really well with Reincarnation as a means to advance a character with an increasing exp requirement each time.
While mentoring is nice, too few will actively do it and it won't give anywhere near the same even spread, not a constant occupation as mentoring is typically done only in segments if a player has the time. The rest of the time has them doing end tier content.
Progeny System
Players will be able to 'retire' high level characters and then create their children as new characters, but these new characters, the 'progeny', will have certain abilities, stats, etc. that make them slightly yet noticeably better than a completely brand new character (but not to the point that it unbalances things).
Progeny sounds less likely to be utilized than making alts because you don't even get to keep your end-game character. It gets retired after putting in all that work. Maybe a feature like "new game+" but with the would be better than how progeny is currently defined where you don't have to essentially delete your high-level character (assuming that is what retire means); instead, you can make a new character after you get to whatever the above definition means by "high level." Having said that, I have significant doubts this alone would incentivize players enough to have them reinvigorating lowbie zones. It seems like a cool feature that could play part of the overall solution to the problem in the OP.
I honestly feel that Visionary Realms has a vision that at least publicly so far doesn't really have an answer to this problem. Like I posted in the OP, FFXIV level syncs to address this. That's a pretty good solution, I think, but it feels antithetical to what Pantheon wants to be with community in game, assuming the level sync requires automatic grouping and teleporting to dungeons or raid zones. What if it doesn't have to have those additional features though?
I could see a game where people group together and cross some threshold (not necessarily an instance, and it could be rather seamless) into a castle and suddenly everyone HAS THE OPTION in the grand foyer to raise or lower player-character levels to match the content. Taking this option would mean that drops for each character could match their real level. The option also means that high levels could stay high level and still escort lowbies through the area if they want, but the high level probably won't benefit from it much other than the social interaction or having normal drops for the purposes of fashion, collections, sales, gifting, etc.
NathHaw said: Progeny sounds less likely to be utilized than making alts because you don't even get to keep your end-game character. It gets retired after putting in all that work
Not much work overall I would say. But also, your main (Basically your progeny) are stronger than an alt. Personally, I wouldn't make an alt knowing that but would go through the Progeny system.
NathHaw said:Progeny sounds less likely to be utilized than making alts because you don't even get to keep your end-game character. It gets retired after putting in all that work. Maybe a feature like "new game+" but with the would be better than how progeny is currently defined where you don't have to essentially delete your high-level character (assuming that is what retire means); instead, you can make a new character after you get to whatever the above definition means by "high level." Having said that, I have significant doubts this alone would incentivize players enough to have them reinvigorating lowbie zones. It seems like a cool feature that could play part of the overall solution to the problem in the OP.
I can only speak for the game I played with a Reincarnation system (DDO) where you lost the main to create a level 1 character: a lot of people gladly lose their max level character to go through the content again and to be more powerful.
If the Progeny system follows the same method (losing a max level character to restart at level 1 with a small extra perk/buff) people will have to make their own decision on what they want to do. Since we do not know how the Progeny system will work, it is a little early to boast or complain about the system.
Legit just give incentive for players to return to those zones when at max level which would then makes the starting cities like:
Skargol (skar hub)
Syronai's Rest (dark myr hub)
The Broken Maw (ogre hub)
Faerthale (elves hub)
Thronefast (humans hub)
Sorhiryth (halfing hub)
A hot bed for activity an would then grant new players a 'low leveled zone' that is packed with players. It doesn't mean you won't see a skar in thronefast or a human in skargol though.
Not a response, but commentary on the impact of seeing higher level players in an open world varied level dungeon.
Live Guk, deep in, real doom and gloom. The way out as a long way out but we had a druid. We were just too young to go to undead side but had gotten down to some bridge where we could pull to fairly easily. Accros the bridge was the undead side where if we zoned in a panic, we would die because there were higher level mobs right there and the (then, naked) corpse run would be a PITA. It was tough. Our Tank died and cleric died. We were deciding if mage or druid would go back up to invis (naked) cleric for run down and escort him, leaving 3 behind to mind the bodies and 'Pet tank" any singles. we could maybe handle one and only one. Druid had a longer lasting invis but mage had a better invis although mages invis it could drop at any time but druid could evac.
Cleric made it! just as a wanderer came by- an undead one! (there were few on the live side) We three struggled while the druid came down to get the wanderer while the cleric got his stuff and frantically got back some mana. He got the tank up and the tank started to do stuff albeit weakened, then the undead started to run away at low health... Root wasnt sticking and chanter couldn't mez, cleric didnt have enough mana to stun.
It turned a corner and we heard the footflaps. Two came but they were live and the undead came back. We switched targets and were struggling. Then
Whoosh! a train came in of like 15 frogs. But then we saw others, it was a full group. We thought they trained us so we did what we could, but then they stopped and started mowing them down. I was shocked how quickly they started cutting them down, the undeads, too.
All but two of us died and they helped rezz us up, only when we conned them did we realize they were much higher level (they were red to me).
The warrior in their group had a raid weapon, you could tell but we didn't say anything. The warrior went around giving us shissar fangs - saying "dont throw it!" they looked around, then went over to the undead side, their cleric stopped and buffed us before zoning in- we saw our health drop by a quarter and wondered if she had hurt us until we saw our HP's had actually skyrocketed and we needed to recover to catch up.
Then we looked at the shissar fangs, It was a neat item! range only but with stats! nice little boost in a slot that as otherwise always empty. It came from an area we knew of, but was wayyy to high. You needed enduring breath to get there anyway because it had no atmopshere. I could summon waterstones that could help, but they lasted a limited time and it was easy to forget if you were fighting trying to get there so people would end up suffocating and dieing. Like Dieing to sharks because the waterstone ran out- lol.
We have been conditioned over the years to think of zones in terms of level ranges, both overland and dungeon.
We should stop doing that.
A zone in Pantheon is a region of the world. Within that region there might be many different levels of encounters available.
A dungeon within Pantheon does not need to be a zone unto itself. It can be part of a larger zone. It can be an indoor or an outdoor area. It can be huge and sprawling or tight and focused. Think about the "dungeons" we've seen or heard of so far - Black Rose Keep, Halnir's Caves, the Tower of the Reckless Magician, Amberfaet. Do we know what their level ranges are? How big they are? How deep they go? What lies within the same zone with them?
We should ask for Terminus to be a world and to feel like a world and for the placement of content to make sense in the context of that world. We should ask for goals to be spread out at all levels, for travel to have meaning, and for adventures to involve journeys as well as destinations. If that can be done correctly, then we should not need to fear any areas becoming "dead" over time - or at least, not because adventurers grew out of them.
Manouk said:Not a response, but commentary on the impact of seeing higher level players in an open world varied level dungeon.
Live Guk, deep in, real doom and gloom. The way out as a long way out but we had a druid. We were just too young to go to undead side but had gotten down to some bridge where we could pull to fairly easily. Accros the bridge was the undead side where if we zoned in a panic, we would die because there were higher level mobs right there and the (then, naked) corpse run would be a PITA. It was tough. Our Tank died and cleric died. We were deciding if mage or druid would go back up to invis (naked) cleric for run down and escort him, leaving 3 behind to mind the bodies and 'Pet tank" any singles. we could maybe handle one and only one. Druid had a longer lasting invis but mage had a better invis although mages invis it could drop at any time but druid could evac.
Cleric made it! just as a wanderer came by- an undead one! (there were few on the live side) We three struggled while the druid came down to get the wanderer while the cleric got his stuff and frantically got back some mana. He got the tank up and the tank started to do stuff albeit weakened, then the undead started to run away at low health... Root wasnt sticking and chanter couldn't mez, cleric didnt have enough mana to stun.
It turned a corner and we heard the footflaps. Two came but they were live and the undead came back. We switched targets and were struggling. Then
Whoosh! a train came in of like 15 frogs. But then we saw others, it was a full group. We thought they trained us so we did what we could, but then they stopped and started mowing them down. I was shocked how quickly they started cutting them down, the undeads, too.
All but two of us died and they helped rezz us up, only when we conned them did we realize they were much higher level (they were red to me).
The warrior in their group had a raid weapon, you could tell but we didn't say anything. The warrior went around giving us shissar fangs - saying "dont throw it!" they looked around, then went over to the undead side, their cleric stopped and buffed us before zoning in- we saw our health drop by a quarter and wondered if she had hurt us until we saw our HP's had actually skyrocketed and we needed to recover to catch up.
Then we looked at the shissar fangs, It was a neat item! range only but with stats! nice little boost in a slot that as otherwise always empty. It came from an area we knew of, but was wayyy to high. You needed enduring breath to get there anyway because it had no atmopshere. I could summon waterstones that could help, but they lasted a limited time and it was easy to forget if you were fighting trying to get there so people would end up suffocating and dieing. Like Dieing to sharks because the waterstone ran out- lol.
great story. makes me sad this won't be the same in pantheon because buffs are very short durations and watered down into weak sauce because of level scaling.
I have a story from the other side where we went into Fear with 8-9 people and helped an entire guild get their corpses and buffed them up as we were leaving. They were 99% lev 46? lowest level allowed into the zone. We were all lev 50 and had Hate, fear, Air gear. It was really fun to help and buff them so they could get some gear. We even helped clear the area so they could safely med and be ready for more.
good times.
to answer your question: zones should all be multiple levels. lev 5 to 20 or 25. Lev 25 to 50 etc like Sol A, Sol B, Befallen (lev 4 to 17 ish). Sol B is a great example. could kill near zone in at 25-ish killing kobolds. at lev 35ish King room. at 40 you'd be doing Bats and Bugs. further down, Nox groups. then doing Golden Efreeti boots and imps at lev 45+ and then a Raid for Naggy all in one zone.
Ranarius said:I'll be dying a lot, so when I lose levels I'll be forced back into the low level zones to get my levels back lol.
I don't think de-leveling is in the plan. You loose a significent xp towards your next level I think was mentioned, so maybe you go into negative XP for your current level, instead of de-leveling.
If any zones had some sort of min level cap and you died in it, to then de-level and have no way to get your corpse back until you could finally level back up again would be a big death penalty.
Boulda said:Ranarius said:I'll be dying a lot, so when I lose levels I'll be forced back into the low level zones to get my levels back lol.
I don't think de-leveling is in the plan.
I would be very surprised if de-leveling from exp-loss accumulation is not in, especially now that a decision has been made to respawn with all your gear. Joppa recently said that he fully intends for death to still be challenging. Like WoW, there will be durability and respawn with gear.. I'd be quite surprised if Pantheon does not go a step further with death risk than that.
There is a big different between revisiting zones and revisiting content.
It is fairly easy to revisit zones just by having discontinuous level content in the zone. Different areas can have different leveled content and if there is a level gap then players will be forced to move to another zone before returning.
Revisiting zones though is not really the issue revisiting content is.
Encouraging revisiting the same content can be done in several ways.
1) Farmable consumables (actual consumables, raw crafting materials, cash, repeatable quests or faction)
2) Mentoring
3) Challenge mode:
4) Alts
5) Character life cycles:
6) Time variable zone content:
NathHaw said: The latest Pantheon Plus video claims that Joppa's zone design at least sometimes takes influence from Zelda and Metroid, wherein the player will come back to areas that were previously unconquerable after obtaining something, e.g., a mirror shield. I assume this will help intermingle the different levels, which is a good thing. The problem is that high level players need a reason to engage in activities that low level players are doing. The zones can be of mixed levels all day long just as several are in other games like Classic WoW, but if the low levels are skipping content because no one wants to do the quests or dungeons, it won't matter in the content sense. It will definitely help the zones feel populated, which is a bonus.
I agree. Just because you have a populated zone does not mean the lower levels can partake.
In EQ2 they used mentoring and having treasure chests not drop items if the mob was grey to anybody in the group (would still drop gold / vendor trash) to try and promote higher levels needing/wanting to group with lower levels. Sadly this did not have the desired effects since items were only good for a certain level range and mentoring turned into something you did for friends or Powerleveling only. Very few people went to lower level areas wanting to mentor a stranger or to join a party so you can get a rare drop from a named mob that is grey to your character when not mentoring.
In an open world setting (non-instanced) there are only so many ways that can be created to try and bring a healthy population to the lower levels once the server has matured.
Reincarnation - Have a max level character and retire (delete) them to start at level 1 again with a slight boost to the new character (stackable).
Mentoring - Having a higher level character become the same level as another character in the party.
Side Kicking - Having a lower level character become the same level as a higher level character in the party (Not a fan of this one).
Level Locking - Ability to turn off getting XP.
??? - Have an NPC in town that can lower your level and you will remain at that level until you visit the NPC again.
Did I miss any?
I think from streams it is clear that the current build has a spread of mob levels in zones, not that we know how wide the spread can be really. Amberfaet shows 25ish and then high 30s ish for example and they hint around at areas of it that you can get to that we haven't seen. It was referenced in Black Rose Keep that the outside is lower right? Depending how this shakes out it could be that there is no such thing as a "lower level zone" the way we think of it currently. However I wonder if it will be more like tiers of zones like T1 is lvl 1-20 mobs, T2 20-37, T3 30-50 mob spread. Not that it needs to be set tiers, it could be random spreads of 23-29 outside, 34-48 inside etc.
There are a lot of interesting ideas in this thread but I don't see a lot of talk about level curve. To me the speed at which one levels is the key here because that also dictates how long the rare drops are relevant which dictates how long a camp is relevant in the life of the game. Challenge is the other part of this in that if the game remains challenging for alts and new players then you need to gear your alts and not simply plvl in rags until 50 or speed through as a new player.
Not to derail about itemization and leveling speed but I think it is important to the discussion of keeping lower level areas active. If for example by expansion #3 the time it takes to go from 1-50 has been reduced by lower exp requirements / nerfing of difficulty to the lower level zones to accomodate less population, then people will be speeding through those areas and not bother to farm gear until it is required to progress or at max level buy what they need to participate in end game gear.
If leveling remains slow and challenge high then you have a reason to gear up alts at lower/mid levels because you actually Need the items to make it to max level. Keeping alts stuck around those levels in order to progress means more grouping for new players that are just hitting that content for the first time. If everything is eased up on and made faster as the game ages then the lower level content will be sped through.