i'd rather have pvpers and pvers in the same forums, but honestly it devolves rather quickly because you have pvers calling pvpers toxic and pvpers calling pvers carebears so little meaningful dialogue really happens.
both labels are true, however, we should be able to appreciate open discussions and be respectful. somehow humans haven't changed much from tribal mentality. so much for embracing diversity lol. if anything, we've reverted back to the barbarism of mankind.
with all due respect, pvpers are essentially outcasts on these forums. i think it's aok to bump heads with various things. i think it's aok to even be wrong. i think it's aok to lose. that's something many pvpers won't openly share.
if a pver can get past the 'crap talk' of a pvper, most of us are like jelly goodness past the hardshell. funny part is we get axed by forum management since the crap talk is pretty toxic to begin with kek. i can't deny that haha.
my issue is that pvers don't like to be proven wrong, lose an arguement or even like to bump heads. at that point i just stop talking because no more respectable conversations can continue.
not every pver is like this. i'm aware enough to realize every batch has bad eggs and doesn't speak for all pvers. it's dumb to listen to the loudest voice. oddly enough, i'm more likely to listen to the subtle pvers as they provide way more interesting ideas, but i'm a nobody listening to whispers O_o
this is just an general observation and not meant as an insult. i find that hardcore pvers tend to be alot more close minded than pvpers. THIS IS NOT AN INSULT I REPEAT JUST AN OBSERVATION. YES PVPERS ARE ALL PIG HEADED EGOISTS.
with that being said, there are some diamonds in the rough for pver dialogue that i can appreciate when cruising these forums.
i'm pretty content with the general direction the current provided information for the game has to offer for pvpers.
1 pvp server = high concentration of pvp player base(makes it easy for pvpers to have dialogue with devs and collect data)
combat state = skill expression(very important for pvpers)
keeping pvp dynamic and organic(this is a bit more in depth, but in a nutshell players aren't locked into static factions like wow horde and alliance)
I think what can often cause conflict with PvPers in forums like this is they have very different requirements and priorities for the game, so often seem to have contrary points of view for 'no good reason'.
As an example, the need to 'see through' cosmetic gear is for totally different reasons to PvPers, but if you didn't know they were talking with PvP in mind, they might sound like they are just being unreasonable.
As for characterising PvE / PvE hardcore / PvP? Yeah not so sure. Certainly PvPers are, by their nature, competitive types, but in some ways it's a much more honest 'competition' than a lot of PvE Hardcore players would indulge in.
It would perhaps stop arguments if people's avatars were branded with Monster (PvP), Griefer (PvE Hardcore) or Carebear (PvE) ;^)
I think it boils down to 2 things:
Trash talk: Appropriate in game in a PvP setting behind your avatar that will result in a play action (fight). Not appropriate in a forum setting that does not result in a play action. Sometimes when a difference is raised, the trash talking tends to well up on one side -out of habit- prompting a reactive response from the other side. Not having a venue such as a game to PvP in, it ends up just being mud-slinging words or trolling.
Class balance: PvP will demand it, PvE will insist on "imbalance" or class identity/uniqueness. If the PvP'ers can say, "fine, no class balance" they will find more sympathizers, and will be less of a hassle when they want to transfer to "blue" servers- and they always do. It's when they do that the problems arise and sometimes the Dev's cave in, which creates more problems.
{I am making this bit up->} Or make a rule set: once on a PvP server(with classs balance) forever on a PvP server. Want to go to another server? no problem, start at the char select screen at level 1 and thank you for your business for this indie game that you are as passionate about as we are. You are, by your actions, also proving the replayability of this game, thanks!. Be sure to tell your friends!...about the replayability. Yes that is a seperate account; different server, different account :) You can use the same CC info on this one as well if you want, for this sub, but you'll have that choice when you get to it, you know the drill.
@dispolist
pvpers are more honest at the cost of not being so eloquent with words huh? in a way, it's a simple gauge to test mental fortitude of a group or individual which can equate to skill.
i could make a scale of the most dangerous pvpers based on trash talk.
1. the empty trash talker: most dangerous of all. they are inhumanly good at the game. all information flows through them without emotion or logic. they act and react with instinct, intuition and what seems to be insane luck or guess. these are typically your ace or genius level players. i'd say about .1% of the pvper player base. they are never on forums and only trash talk to gather more information on the opponent worthy of words.
2. the trolling trash talker: decent pvper. they tend to be good enough hold there own, but are reserved enough for when superior skills show their fangs. it is possible to have a decent conversation if you feed them enough troll food and make them have a good laugh. once that happens, there's great conversations to be had. if you don't feed them any troll food they'll just stop talking. if you become triggered well they'll keep bullying you lol. the bulk of the pvpers will fall into this category. 50-60% of the population are like this.
3. the insulting trash talker: the weakest pvper of all. easily triggered. vulnerable to mental exploitation. typically a joke in the pvp community and will trash talk pvers to make them feel good about themselves. there's no point in pvers talking to them. honestly pvpers usually weed them out of pvp servers pretty quickly. especially the whiny loud ones. hmm maybe 5-10% of the pvp population? srs if they are a joke to the pvp community it shouldn't even bother pvers >.>
oh and be wary of the polite trash talkers. they are pretty dangerous O.o just like the happy ones which can be very psychotic.
@manouk
trash talking doesn't occur too much in a match than out of match. any sports from boxing to football, most trash talk occurs outside of the game. in game trash talk just gives away too much information.
i don't think any special ruleset is needed for the 1 pvp server XD we aren't special. it should be where players shouldn't be able to server hop at all. sigh, but lucy on server 6 wants to play with stacy on server 7 and bob has enough money to move jim and tim to server 5 where they can all play without the guild 'camprus' hogging all the rare spawns on server 3 meanwhile the guild 'trainfordays' literally locked 7 zones by training everything so they have a monopoly in server 8.
Kilsin said:When we move to the new forums and have more information to release on PvP, I had intended to have a separate PvP section for PvP lovers to discuss all things PvP but right now, we don't have anything new while we work on the base PvE game ;)
The answer is the same as it has always been on this one. I wouldn't expect a PvP forum until much later in development.
One of the main reasons PVPers and PVEers come into conflict is the scale of powers. Power for PvP are usually balanced with multiples of 1 on 1 in mind. Powers for PVE are balanced based on group size. If the game is mostly solo then PVP balance is fine but if its a challenging group game then its based on 5,6, or 8 on one.
WoW mixed these concepts about as well as possible by designing the game around PVP then scaling the PVE off player power. WoW still ended up with a ton of open world solo content and instanced group content.
In short what one group wants is the rarely in line with what the other needs.
I would say yes, when the game goes live, or during Beta at least, there should be a dedicated PVP forum. There are always plenty of issues surround PVP that get discussed and probably would not be appropriate for the general forums since the PVP population will be small compared to everyone else.
Trasak said:One of the main reasons PVPers and PVEers come into conflict is the scale of powers. Power for PvP are usually balanced with multiples of 1 on 1 in mind. Powers for PVE are balanced based on group size. If the game is mostly solo then PVP balance is fine but if its a challenging group game then its based on 5,6, or 8 on one.
WoW mixed these concepts about as well as possible by designing the game around PVP then scaling the PVE off player power. WoW still ended up with a ton of open world solo content and instanced group content.
In short what one group wants is the rarely in line with what the other needs.
ehhh pvp balance is based on the game. wow pvp is balanced around 3v3. daoc was balance in mass scale scale combat. eso is balanced for around 20ish. warhammer was more around 10v10. i would prefer it if pantheon was pvp was balanced by party size. the thing with balance is its fleeting in an asymmetrical class system.
i think it would be a poor move to balance pvp 1v1 for pantheon since the pve basis is suppose to be group orientated. might as well stick to the pve design philosphy rather than change it completely for pvp.
Iksar said:Kilsin said:When we move to the new forums and have more information to release on PvP, I had intended to have a separate PvP section for PvP lovers to discuss all things PvP but right now, we don't have anything new while we work on the base PvE game ;)
The answer is the same as it has always been on this one. I wouldn't expect a PvP forum until much later in development.
Thank you.
Closing this down folks, the answer remains the same until we get further along in development.