Forums » Crafting and Gathering

Crafter's Roundtable: Death, Durability, and Repairs

    • 13 posts
    September 1, 2020 11:10 PM PDT

    Keeping in mind that this is supposed to take money out of circulation I would break It down in to a Trinity system. 
    I can see a Durability and Repair system, working with Crafting as a bonus like so:

     

    Durability

    When gear is damaged:

    Stat reduction up to (1/2) or (3/4) of X% up to when completely broken

    Armor class reduction from the piece of X% up to when completely broken

         This will allow a player to continue with damaged gear to a certain point but allow you to still be effective until your armor is complely broken and unusable, and put different stress on classes that use there gear for stats vs armor class. My thoughts on this would be that stats would be a more impactful loss to dps, healers. and support vs. Tanks who would need the Armor class. But never removing stats gained from armor completely allowing all classes to have a fraction of there potency when clicking buttons, but no AC/Defence when armor is broken. 

     

    This plays into the ability to repair as such: 


    Repair

    Repairing can be done in 2 different ways which each would have pro's and con's when it comes to the two most important things, MONEY and TIME.

    1. Repair at a NPC - Repar all your gear to full.

       I would like to see this take time rather than be instant. Lets say its a 10 second channel for the NPC to finish. I feel that a small channel is something that feels significant, and makes repair from death more impactful. While at the same time it is also something that would not be to overwhelming in conjunction with what we allready know about the death penalties

    2. Repair via Player character (yourself) - From the repair NPC, players could purchase an item that will repair A SINGLE PIECE of gear over a channeled duration.

      What this means is that you have a consumable that will allow you to repair in the field. However you will have to buy multiple because it is one piece at a time, and for a percent, rather than a full repair for all your gear at once. You will also have to take the time and make sure that you are safe to perform the repair, because it would be a channel while hostiles could be around.  

    When it comes to repairing this way and keeping costs in mind, I belive that you could put things into level brackets with gear, but this depends on if pantheon decides to have levels on the gear itself. 

    An Example is:

    Gear 1-10 level is a certain cost at the NPC to repair to full, and takes a 10 second channel. To repair gear yourself in the field you would need the consumables in that level bracket to repair a single item. The consumables should only repair a set % of the durability however and each item in that braket would cost a fraction of the repair, which would be slightly greater than if you repaired a single item at the NPC itself. Also each consumeable would be short channel, if the NPC is 10 seconds for all, 2 seconds for a single piece could work (forcing you to spend a lot more time to repair all of your gear in the feild vs a quick repair in a safe haven. 

    The overall thought behind this would be that it is more efficent to get to an NPC and have them do it, however if you plan ahead then you can spend time and money to have the ability to repair items on the fly if you choose to do so. 

    Players would save money if they went to an NPC to repair but might lose time, or even there camp spot. Repairing on site would cost you more and could be risky because it would leave you in a channel, making you vunerabule to attack by NPC's forcing you to repair while protecting yourself or your party members in the field. 

     

    Crafting

    My final thought is that when you think of it in terms of crafting. You could be able to get a bonus to the percentage repaired when using the consumable when it comes to gear types that you can craft, meaning you would spend the same amount for the consumables as everyone else but would be more effective in using them because of your Crafting Skill. This would not eliminate the overall base cost of repairing, but rather help cut down on the costly inflation of buying the consumables to have the ability to repair in the field.

    This all would depend heavily on a internal level system for gear, weather the player can see this level or not  . . . Just some food for thought based on previous posts. I do think that if any part of this could be implimented in an MMO system it would be super interesting! There are also plenty of ways to modify each point I pruposed so I could see that adapting it to another system would be a power play! 


    This post was edited by JonWane at September 1, 2020 11:15 PM PDT
    • 393 posts
    September 8, 2020 10:56 PM PDT

    Trasak and Barin999, I appreciate both your ideas!I And I think you both are on to something with how I feel about durability loss too.

    Though I would not appreciate a 'chance' to have all my items break with death. Seems too harsh a penalty. My thought on durability, although less specific, generally having a slow, gradual loss of effectiveness over time will lead to gradual decrease of item function/effectiveness and the greater the durability loss (or time without repair) the greater the 'chance' of incurring a 'broken' item that absolutely requires repair to incur the item's benefit again. My definition of gradual would be several hours of gameplay (6 - 12 hours) or perhaps 6 - 8 deaths, or a combination thereof.

    I do believe that crafters must be incorporated into the repair dynamic. Someone mentioned the idea that a PC repairing an item could potentially gain experience in that crafting school; I think that's a great idea. This acknowledges and promotes their contribution beyond receiving only tips for their service; as their skill increases, their crafting will continue to benefit not only themselves but other players over time as well. Crafter level should be relevent to the level of the item repaired. I also think the onus for PC repairs should be delivered at static crafting sites. If repair kits are to be thing then I think they should only be a temporary jerry-rig repair that accounts for a set % (say 25 - 50%) of a total repair and never should kits completely repair items.

    JonWane; I was wondering something along these lines as well. What does damage affect in terms of an item and should there be a difference between the disfunction of an item that melee and tanks use compared to those casters use? What about Clerics? Would damage only affect AC/DPS, or stats, or special bonuses and/or magical abilities or all of the above? Curious to see how others think about these things.


    This post was edited by OakKnower at September 8, 2020 10:57 PM PDT
    • 19 posts
    September 19, 2020 1:53 PM PDT
    I would like to see a system where crafters could repair (to some degree) out in the field. So if your in the middle of a camp or middle of no where, there could be some repair. Obviously this would require materials to perform along with some downtime possibly. Obviously, limits would be placed due to lack of proper equipment along with materials to be used taking up precious bag space. Something like only able to repair up to a point, maybe even having a min limit due to an item being so damaged you would NEED to use proper equipment or risk making it worse. Something similar i think would be cool
    • 4 posts
    October 13, 2020 10:18 AM PDT

    Durability loss should have nothing to do with death....it should be useage that causes durability loss....not sure why everyone wants to tie in durability to death...so your fight the same enemy 10 times, the first nine times no death so items are pristine...10th time you die and all of a sudden your items are damaged...god no please........i use to think it was a good idea but the more i thought about it the less i like it it feels really silly....

    All classes should have durability loss...with item type telling you how much durability an item has....a tanks plate armor would have a **** ton of durability where as a wizard robe would have very little...tons of hits on a tank before fix...just a few for wizard robe...

    Just don't tie it to death its ridiculous....the hits during the fight cause the durability loss not the death....

    As for death penalty seeing as they want people to keep their useful items (not junk in inventory...thats not a penalty most times) i would say the only real penalty death could have is drastic XP hit.

    If i lost 10% xp for a level per death i would consider my options before engaging and weigh the risk/reward knowing it would take hours to get back that xp....but from what i have seen i highly doubt the death penalty will be scary...i hope im wrong though but who knows yet...cant wait to find out if they go easy or hard...

    my 2cents....maybe less....

    Kridak

     

    • 15 posts
    November 23, 2020 4:46 PM PST

    +2 cents:

    On my end of the extreme spectrum, I believe that crafting should be a very complicated process that not everyone wants to deal with the hassle of getting into. Probably the best crafting experience I've had so far is EQ2 where, not only did we have base components like roots and ores, but we had mid-tier components like lether straps (tanner) and metal buckles (blacksmith) that a leatherworker would need to get from other crafting professions to create a backpack.  An armor smith would need to get metal bolts (blacksmith) and leather plates (tanner) to make armor, and even the tanner needed oils (alchemist) to make those leather mid-components. I would love to see a very complicated, inter-dependant crafting system that requires time and effort, along with some form of mini-game to keep it interesting. EQ2 had a great mini-game where the longer you took to make an item, the less quality that item had. Complications would also arrise that you needed your crafting skills (hotbar buttons) to compensate for. I still remember trying to make a soup and accedentally overheated it while adding too much salt. This really gave me the feeling that I was making something, and that each item was unique. 

    On the flip side of the spectrum is World of Warcraft and Asheron's Call, where you click "combine" and watch a little bar in the middle of your screen fill up while your arms go out, come together, and presto! you have an item. Want 1000? Change quantity, click combine and watch the bar fill 1000 times while you sit there and drool...

    Again, I know I might (I am) be on the extreme end where not many people want to see complicated crafting, but to them, I just say don't get into it then. Be the adventurer you want to be, buy the item from the few who want to dedicate the time and effort to make these amazing things, and boom: economy!

    As for end-game, duribility. Have armor and swords break after use. Cooks and Alchemists get repeat business because their potions and soups are one-shot items, so they are constantly in demand late-game. Smiths need durability so that there is a constant demand for new armor and weapons. We can even have a repair system where the max duribility decreases by X% every time it's repaired, so eventually its max duribility would be 1 and break after one hit, thus not worth keeping any more, and time to get a new set made. We can also have different base enchantments imbued into the armor by an enchanter while the armor is being created, so players could have multiple versions of armor depending on what kind of mob they are fighting... Sort of like Monster Hunter I guess. Then players could wear their regular late-game armor (cheaper so don't care if the duribility degrades) for grinding quests, and then swap to their high-tier enchanted armor (only used when needed so don't have to repair/replace very often) for a specific raid.

    I wouldn't have stats degrade with durability, however. Making a sword that deals 10 damage wouldn't be 10 very long, and only end up doing 1 point of damage during its last 10% of life... That just wouldn't be fun. Make the durability an issue because then artisans can have more fun repairing and making new armor, and keep the stats constant so that players can have more fun using the items they grinded for until they actually break.

    I also don't think durability should be tied to death. DEVs in past games created that system, IMHO, because they wanted to try to give death meaning by tying it to some arbitrary penalty completed unrelated to dying. I also don't like dropping everything upon death because if you want to just rage-quit and cool off for a while, you can't until you complete a corpse run which is just frustrating. Why play a game that is frustrating when there are so many games that aren't? Loosing levels is also frustrating because it makes you feel like you wasted your time leading up to this point, so if I could choose a death penalty, it wouldn't be durability loss (keeping this comment tied to the topic) or level loss, but rather an exp penalty like in 7DTD where you have a stat debuff until you pay back the grim reaper with enough post-death gathered experience.

    Thanks for reading!


    This post was edited by Smurgle at November 23, 2020 4:52 PM PST
    • 72 posts
    January 23, 2021 10:47 AM PST

    Questaar said:

     

    As someone that loves crafting, I hope total durability down to loss of item occurs.  I think it brings a touch of realism that is fun to deal with.  Simple weapons require simple fixes.  Magic items more difficult fixes.  I'm very much looking forward to it.

    Same, as long as they don't break as easily as the weapons in that Zelda game.  Yeesh.

    If gear doesn't break, then being a crafter has little use.

    • 768 posts
    February 1, 2021 10:52 AM PST

    Smurgle said:

    As for end-game, duribility. Have armor and swords break after use. Cooks and Alchemists get repeat business because their potions and soups are one-shot items, so they are constantly in demand late-game. Smiths need durability so that there is a constant demand for new armor and weapons. 

    Just a thought: To bring durablity for cooks and alchemists: 

    Detrimental effects could impact consumables in your bag to be "poisoned". Consumables in your bags might have their "duration" decreased or stats influenced. And a cook or alchemist might be able to restore the quality of those products. 

    This basically is the same design like smiths or woodworkers. With the difference, you don't need to die for those consumables to be impacted and as a result require a "repair".

    It would be like zifting the flies out of your soup. 

    I see these detriments especially resulting from interaction with the environment. For example, frost climate might result in half frozen, fully frozen consumables. ...with its own repair design. A toxic environment speaks for itself and so on. Depending on how long you're getting "hurt" by those climates your consumables might be heavily impacted or not. This does not have to relate to how well you as a character are adapted to that environment, but it could.

     

    • 83 posts
    February 2, 2021 2:35 PM PST

    Seems a bit complex, but it might roll neatly into the climate system so who knows. We would, by necessity, need some kind of protective container you can keep food in where it is unaffected, perhaps at the cost of some serious bag space? Have to replace one of your sexy twelve slot bags with a dopey 4 slot bag to protect your food. Seems like a decent trade if they were to implement this kind of thing.

    • 161 posts
    March 20, 2022 10:37 PM PDT
    Regarding equipment durability.

    Barring several acts of genius, I see a train wreck approaching. If equipment damage is much more than a trivial inconvenience, I would expect a significant number of rage quits, especially if "for the lack of a nail, the battle was lost" was a regular occurrence.

    I do understand that VR wants equipment durability to matter, and to be another link in the chain of character interdependence.

    But a player could easily make the following objection. During a fight, my character is cut, slashed, smashed, crushed, burnt, frozen, and so on, in many locations: my arms, my elbows, my shoulders, my neck, my back, my knees, my feet, my calves, and so on. Yet rather than track every injury by location and type, and applying appropriate treatments for each injury, instead I have Hit Points and maybe Endurance each tracked by a single bar, and there are multiple character classes with the responsibility to see that those bars don't reach zero.

    Yet you're telling me that the game will be tracking every item in every armor slot, each taking damage individually, and each needing a specific type of repair?

    Imagine if bodily damage were handled that way. Would that be fun? Would it enhance character interdependency? How many would rage quit, never to return?

    What if instead we abstract damage to equipment analogously to hit points?

    Let's imagine a resource. I don't really have a good name for it. Tidy? Kept? For now, let's call it Kit Points or KP.

    When you are at full Kit Points, all of your gear is in peak condition and worn properly. All your buckles and cords are snug, everything is well oiled and in place.

    As you take Kit Damage, your gear first becomes loosened and disarrayed, then worn, then cracked, then broken. All this is tracked by a single bar.

    If, unlike Hit Points, you want to manifest consequences of reduced Kit Points, you could increase the odds of inconveniences, or acquire penalties. If you wanted to track which pieces of gear were affected, you could handle that with a series of attributes for that gear.

    For example: Loose, Out of Place, Scratched, Dented, Cracked, and Broken.

    It would be easier to fix Loose or Out of Place Gear, even during combat, Scratched Gear would take more time and skill, with Dented, Cracked, or Broken being even more serious.

    Different gear would contribute different amount of Kit Points, based on its weight, quality, and material. Different classes might be better at making sure their gear is properly worn. Stats like Wisdom or perhaps Charisma might contribute to Kit Points (have you ever seen a sloppy Elf?)

    There could be spells that restore Loose or Out of Place gear during combat, or even more serious conditions, perhaps temporarily.

    Anyway, this is not yet well thought out. It just occurred to me that if we don't track damage on individual body parts, how could it be a good idea to track damage to specific pieces of my gear?
    • 1860 posts
    March 23, 2022 11:45 AM PDT

    Balanz said: Imagine if bodily damage were handled that way. Would that be fun? Would it enhance character interdependency? How many would rage quit, never to return? What if instead we abstract damage to equipment analogously to hit points? Let's imagine a resource.


    So what I'm reading is you basically want a "healing" type of ability that fixes durability damage instead of health.  

    I could see that working as long as there is an expensive reagent required to fix the durability.  This system is really only there as a money sink. 

    At least if players fixed durability damage it would reduce the requirement to travel to an NPC to do it.  It would also encourage player interaction and be a useful out of combat, support type of skill.  It could be tied to crafting but it wouldn't have to be.  It could be class or race based...we still haven't seen racial actives...

    • 161 posts
    March 23, 2022 5:50 PM PDT

    Really, I am just playing with ideas, trying to analyze how to make durability workable, both mechanically, and how it adds to player experience.

     

    A lot depends on how often durability is an issue. We know that at minimum, it is a negative consequence of being resurrected, and will require trade skills and components to restore to full.

     

    However, if that were all there were to it, it might as just be debuff that requires trade skills to remove. Instead, it appears that it applies to individual pieces of equipment, and persists on each gear until repaired.

     

    I also don't believe that it would be worth all the design effort for just a resurrection debuff, so clearly there will be other circumstances where gear is degraded. These might include environmental effects, long combats, critical hits against a specific location, or debuffs other than resurrection. The more often Durability is an issue, the more consequential it is in terms of player enjoyment, and the better the solution has to be in order to be fun.

     

    This is why the first idea I came up with was an analog to Hit Points. While it is insufficient to meet VR's design goals, there may be something useful to consider here.

     

     

    • 1860 posts
    March 23, 2022 10:31 PM PDT

    Balanz said:

    We know that at minimum, it is a negative consequence of being resurrected, and will require trade skills and components to restore to full.

    Do we?  Where was that confirmed?

    • 768 posts
    March 23, 2022 10:52 PM PDT

    Perhaps it can be linked to the status of the character?  Where we've heard that a character can have the "soaked" status when being in the pooring rain. 

    If that status is on the character for X time, your gear might begin to suffer. Or have an x% chance to get a durability hit in a range of X time exposed to that status.

    This might be similar mechanic with acclimation, where your resistance increases the longer you're exposed to a certain environmental detriment.

    Only it would have an impact on your gear. The stats of your gear could become "stressed".

     

    Or should be approach this from the other way around? As you wear the gear it improves up to a certain point? 

    A death or other sudden extreme exposure might cause the equipped gear to decrease in improvement made. 

    Short example: unused pants has a +0 str and +1 mitigation/defense. As you wear it for 5 game days without getting killed or being exposed to sudden extremes, that pants has increased +1 str +1 mitigation. This could progress up to the actual designed stat of those pants. (i believe some games use a skillpoint approach on equipped items)

    Look at it as wearing new pants yourself, they're a bit tight at the beginning but the more you wear them, the more comfortable they feel. 'They adjust to your body as you wear it.'

    The repairing part comes into play in the scenario when that gear gets a hit. It might no longer reach it's full potential. But repairing it, could allow the pants to reach it's full potential again (if that makes sense).

    The repair cost could increase depending on: how many times it has been repaired before, how many hits that gear has undergone, uniqueness of the item.

    Once a pants has been repaired too often, you'll no longer be able to achieve its fullest recovery, but perhaps up to a decent % of it's full potential (for sake of giving numbers 80% of it's full potential remains possible even after numerous gear hits). And new pants might be advised. which is another motivation to go out and play the game for similar, better or newers pants (with more potential over time). Possibly an incentive for trying to get the same pants you had before (usefull repeatability of content?)


    This post was edited by Barin999 at March 24, 2022 11:34 AM PDT
    • 334 posts
    April 16, 2022 10:58 AM PDT

    One issue here that I hope is kept in mind as these systems are further developed is that when it comes to item degradation/repairs, tanks are disproportionately impacted by this due to their much higher rate of death vs other class archetypes, and as such are more often "punished" for performing their duty than other archetypes. And it's not really beneficial to just assume tanks will get their bills footed by other party members, perhaps in a group of friends or guildies, but is much less likely to happen in random groups.

    Something to keep in mind.

    • 768 posts
    April 28, 2022 2:07 PM PDT

    Sicario said:

    One issue here that I hope is kept in mind as these systems are further developed is that when it comes to item degradation/repairs, tanks are disproportionately impacted by this due to their much higher rate of death vs other class archetypes, and as such are more often "punished" for performing their duty than other archetypes. And it's not really beneficial to just assume tanks will get their bills footed by other party members, perhaps in a group of friends or guildies, but is much less likely to happen in random groups.

    Something to keep in mind.

    A physical blow might impact on one character, but other types of impacts might create a hit on other characters beside the tank aswel. Those not equally equipped as a tank, might feel that impact stronger. 

    Would an arrow on a plate armor cause equal impact (degradation) on a leather armor %-wise?  Something to consider perhaps? From that perspective the degradation might balance itself out better than you might expect or are used to from other games. I'm not sure what the dev's point of view is on that.


    This post was edited by Barin999 at April 28, 2022 2:08 PM PDT