Forums » Crafting

Crafter's Roundtable: Death, Durability, and Repairs

    • 1757 posts
    July 26, 2020 7:24 AM PDT

    Yesterday (July 25th), Joppa surprised everyone by describing what Visionary Realms is looking to use for Pantheon's death penalty in the community's unofficial discord channel. Here is what he said:

    When you die:
    - Return to your bind spot
    - Lose X% of current experience towards next level
    - Large durability hit to worn equipment (if we implement durability, which we probably will)
    - Respawn with the gear you were wearing when you died still equipped.
    - All general inventory remains on corpse, must be looted to retrieve. This includes money.
    - Resurrection abilities will return an amount of lost exp. All priest classes will boast the same exp return for their rezzes.

    For this special Crafter's Roundtable, we want to hear from everyone out there. How do you think durability should work in Pantheon? How do you think the stats of the items should be affected by it? How do you think repairs should work? How do you think that crafters should be involved?

    Just like every Crafter's Roundtable thread, this has been cross-posted from the Pantheon Crafters forums.

    • 1523 posts
    July 26, 2020 7:52 AM PDT

    As previously discussed dozens of times, and demonstrated in every historical game that has tried it, without actual item loss through durability, it's a sad gimmick.
    But, I don't see them doing it, personally.  It's a dirty band-aid on an arterial laceration of economic inflation, as far as removing coin from a broken economy.

    If they do go ahead, I can see them going the Shroud route of:  Oh, sure, you can repair your gear, but the max durability?  *tch*
    You need to find a very special rare component to reset that max durability. 
    And while you can find it in the world at a drop rate of 0.0001% off of a monthly rare & random contested spawn, you can also buy them from the cash shop for USD$1 each. :)
    Yes, yes, I know.. they would never do that.

    • 13 posts
    July 26, 2020 11:05 AM PDT

    I would hope that there is some sort of item loss, and/or heavy player interaction with crafting to repair.  I would imagine one could buy an item from a vendor and take it to a player with adequate skill to repair an item.  If there's no crafter's then a higher gold cost overall to repair via NPC maybe?

    • 1523 posts
    July 26, 2020 12:13 PM PDT

    Item loss from durability loss could, without too much exaggeration, completely shift the entire public design of Pantheons economy, looting systems, crafting and adventure loops, as well as many other game systems.
    Yes, it's that big of a deal.

    No hint of such a thing from February 22, 2014 until today July 26, 2020, that I'm aware of.


    This post was edited by vjek at July 26, 2020 12:15 PM PDT
    • 289 posts
    July 26, 2020 2:15 PM PDT

     

    As someone that loves crafting, I hope total durability down to loss of item occurs.  I think it brings a touch of realism that is fun to deal with.  Simple weapons require simple fixes.  Magic items more difficult fixes.  I'm very much looking forward to it.

    • 6 posts
    July 26, 2020 4:30 PM PDT

    More than likely, durability wont have much effect on crafters other than there may be some crafters who could craft portable durability fix's to sell to players.  

    • 669 posts
    July 27, 2020 4:19 AM PDT

    I see a lot of potential in this.

    Each crafting class could repair items they can produce themselves. 

    So this means; a smith can make a sword, well they can repair swords. Even swords they didn't make themselves.

    You can add in several layers, where the crafter can only repair items they have discovered in their recipes. 

    If there are repair npc's. I would allow them to repair up to certain degree. 

    A crafter however, should be able to repair the items to a higher degree.

    Should full repair be possible?...that's a big debate. VR has mentioned that you'll be able to use an equipped item for a very long time, so that might be already a hint towards the answer of that question.

    Personally, I find that 10 deaths before gear is unwearable..is too much. But I'd have to try it out in the game to see how fast I get to 10 deaths.

    If dieing is less frequent, I would give gear less then 10 deaths before it's not longer equipable and in need of repair.

    It's within my expectations that you'll have the opportunity to repair durability of gear in the proximity of binding points or safe locations. So in order to still make it impactful, the amount of times you can die before loss of gear-durability negatively influences your character performance should be quite restricted.  Otherwise, you'll just die and run back the first 9 times without feeling a dent in your performance. And within those 9 times you might have progressed so far that you didn't really remember/notice your first deaths during that playsession.

     

    I like the idea of item degradation as durability decreases. (Decreasing stats on gear as durability decreases by death) But I'm not sure we want to go into that here.

    • 669 posts
    July 27, 2020 4:43 AM PDT

    I much rather see, deserted workstations, makeshift workstations or deserted repair tools laying around in the world.
    So you'd remove the npc's doing the repairing, but really leaving it all up to crafters or players with repair skills.

    • 669 posts
    July 27, 2020 4:51 AM PDT

    I would even be ok if repair items and tools could be found and picked up to your inventory.
    That way, you have something extra to spawn in the world but also it has a sense of value linked to it based on the abundance and the necessity of them within an area.
    A player with repair tools/resources in their inventory would be highly motivated to retreive their corpse, in order to repair everyones gear.
    I think that little circle, could make sense in a world.

    I always disliked how you could click on a permanent feature in a game and get instant repaired. It really decreased the experience of an impactfull death. If you see what I mean? You quickly forgot your whipe as if you were removing the dust from your shoulderpads.
    So to prevent this from occuring harvestables and consumables that relate to repairing, makes more sense.
    It also means that the second corner to the right in a dungeon, isn't an automatic repair spot. It might just be a safer area, but the repair resources might always be laying there.

    • 6 posts
    July 27, 2020 8:45 AM PDT

    or what if they made all the drops from raids, dungeons, or quest have low durability.  They may have good stats but are used.  Maybe the crafters job is  to give the items more durability so you can survive enough deaths to use the gear.  just a thought...

    • 13 posts
    July 27, 2020 8:54 AM PDT

    As someone who does enjoy crafting in games, I like the idea presented that crafters can not only craft but also repair the same item types as they're able to craft. It lends itself well to a dynamic world that stresses player interactions and the importance of community. It makes sense. Perhaps allow potions of repair or something similar that will take you from the edge of "broken" to buy you some time to find someone who can do your major repairs but the use of which is not condusive long term. Its like using a bandage until you get to your healer.

    I love the idea of finding abandoned workstations or tools - it would be pretty cool to be able to repair those and use it for a certain amount of time. Hey, here I am! master swordsmith doing repairs in the middle of these here woods for anyone who needs it for the next hour! or whatever. It would be a nice touch. 

    • 9 posts
    July 28, 2020 4:07 AM PDT

    Thank you for the idea Delthalas.

    I can agreee with this and also give a rough estimate as what would be nice to see, i could see two types of durrability loss, minor and severe. If you incur minor damage to your gear i would expect to see a loss of gradual percentage of stats. Severe however would make the item no longer function or wearable until reparied by the appropriate profession or find a NPC who specalizes in teaching players that profession for a quite heavy increase im material costs or straight gold.( IE - say a chestplate becomes severely damaged, it would require 3 iron ore and some fittings for a player to repair it at an armorer opposed to a sword at a armament creater. Bows and (Staves-may also require an enchanter) would require a woodwoker instead of blacksmith to be accurate. However, if you dont have those items it would be 2X/2.5X the resource cost at a NPC plus some ammount of currency, whichever the devs find accurate. Say a quest reward gives 12 gold it would require 40 gold for the repair using a NPCs skills rather than a player. so it would take some moderate grinding before you could go back out and try that boss again. Special armors would require a greater rarity of items).

    delthalas said:

    I would hope that there is some sort of item loss, and/or heavy player interaction with crafting to repair.  I would imagine one could buy an item from a vendor and take it to a player with adequate skill to repair an item.  If there's no crafter's then a higher gold cost overall to repair via NPC maybe?

    I additon. I would love to see a profession or all of them having a dismantle feature being able to break down items you find in your travels for parts, Say for instance a bow, you could dismantle it for wood and a string. 5 strings could possibly create a rope or something along those lines.

     


    This post was edited by Jigantor at July 28, 2020 4:34 AM PDT
    • 1757 posts
    July 28, 2020 7:21 AM PDT

    Going to throw out a crazy idea for discussion.  Disclaimer:  I haven't really thought this all the way through yet, as it kind of just came to me this morning while reading people's opinions on durability.

    Background:  Durability as an across-the-board money sink tends to be boring and players view it as a "tax" (which it is).  Systems that try to involve crafters in repairing items tend to end up feeling gimmicky (tiered versions of repair kits) or lopsided (crafters repair items "better" than NPCs do).  In some cases they can make people feel required to take up crafting just to repair their own gear, which doesn't really help social interaction.

    Crazy idea:

    - There is no durability number or percentage.

    - Each time a character dies, worn items have a very low percentage chance to become "damaged".

    - A "damaged" item loses some of its effectiveness.  Think of the damage condition as a debuff on the item itself.

    - Example damage conditions:  "Nicked blade".  "Dented".  "Chipped".  and so on.

    - Damage conditions can be removed in one of two ways:

    1) Visit an NPC repair person and pay them a sum of money.  How much money depends on the power level of the item and the damage condition applied to the item.

    2) Have a player crafter repair the item.  To repair the item, crafters need the appropriate repair material which is consumed during the repair.  Repair materials needed depend on the power level of the item and the damage condition.

     

    Examples:

    - At level 12, Brian gets clobbered by some orcs and his heavy bronze shield is damaged, gaining the "Dented" condition.  Brian can visit a repair NPC and pay 30 silver to have it repaired (moderately expensive, at level 12).  Or, his guildmate Jessica (a blacksmith) to fix it.  In order to fix it, Jessica will need a Bronze Plate as a repair material.

    - At level 34, Brian gets in over his head in a dungeon, and his wyvern skin cloak acquires the "Shredded" condition.  Brian can visit a repair NPC and pay 7 gold to have this repaired (a little pricy), or his friend Bob (an outfitter) can repair it.   To repair it, Bob is going to need 3 pristine wyvern hides, which are not necessarily easy to come by.

    - At level 50, Brian is tanking for a raid and, unfortunately, the raid wipes.  After the wipe, Brian's weapon (a rare item named the Star Hammer) suffers the "Shattered" condition.  Brian can visit a repair NPC and pay 110 platinum to have this repaired (ouch!).  Or, he can ask his guildmate Jessica for help again.  Because Brian's weapon is a powerful rare item, Jessica needs a list of items to perform the repairs:  3 lumps of adamantine ore, 1 vial of distilled ice giant blood, and 1 bar of Phantom Steel.

     

    I think I like this better than a "traditional" durability system because instead of there being generic repair kits, player crafters need specific repair materials in order to fix items, and since the different conditions are specific to item types and thus to crafting professions, players still have to rely on others from time to time even if they are crafters themselves.  This also acts as a form of content generation (getting a bar of Phantom Steel might be an adventure in and of itself).  Players can bypass the social requirement or the crafting "content" of obtaining the repair materials by participating in the money sink, but that can get very expensive at higher levels.  There are some potential downsides to doing it this way, one of which is that someone could get unlucky and have a critical piece of gear damaged in a way that severely hinders them until they get it fixed.  But I feel like if we're going to have durability and actually have it matter and not just be a tax everyone pays, that's acceptable.

    It's not my thoughts that matter though.  Feel free to pull this one apart, everyone :)

    • 1249 posts
    July 28, 2020 7:49 AM PDT

    I don’t think that a cash payment is enough.  We just end up with a WoW style cash sink of little consequence.

    I would like to see a repair requiring a bit of the base material of the item and skill to repair it.  The level of damage will influence the amount of material and how hard it is to repair it.

    NPC craftsmen of the correct type matching the item can be paid to repair items if you provide them the required materials but they need to be high enough skill level.

    PC Craftsmen all should be able to do the same process but skill levels and talents can reduce the amount of fresh material required over what the NPC would charge as well as a negotiable fee.

    I would limit damageable items to visible armor slots and worn weapons so each player really only needs to have one go to repairer for armor and another for weapons.

    • 2040 posts
    July 28, 2020 7:50 AM PDT

    In your examples, @Nephele, specifically the last one, the item goes from perfectly fine to shredded because of a single death?  Is it your intent that the degree to which some item gets damaged is due to RNG?  If so, then I'd be wholly against that.

    With most durability mechanics, the degree to which an item is damaaged is predictable (say 2% loss per death), and can be planned for (my gear is at 85%, I can last  one more night before needing to repair) but if your idea goes with an RNG approach, you could enter a dungeon at 100% durability on all your gear, die once and have a random item nearly destroyed, potentially forcing you to leave and go fix it.  Is that really any fun for anyone?

    Also, the notion that the items lose effectiveness is something I would also have an issue with as it compounds the penalty.  You're already paying a monetary penalty, which is the whole point of durability repair costs (the money sink) but now you want to make the act of adventuring even more punishing?  Oh, I get that it is more realistic that a damaged weapon or piece of armor becomes less effective, but yet are you allowing someone to repair a metal item out in the field?  That shattered shield which should require a forge to repair will be performed out in the wild how exactly?  Right..'magic'.

    Lets look at one of the big points VR has made over the years, the one that single stat points will matter.  So that shield could very well just have a couple points of AC, say 5 AC, and 1 point each in Strength and Stamina.  How would you go about making that less effective when you have just 1 point in STR/STA?  Immediatley go to 0?  cut it by 10ths?  100ths?  Do we really want to see a damage item with 0.987 STR because of damage?  If you stick with whole point adjustments, reducing AC by just 1 point cuts its effectiveness by 20%.  So just 1 death and that shield loses 20% effectiveness. Is that fair?  Is that fun?


    This post was edited by Vandraad at July 28, 2020 7:51 AM PDT
    • 667 posts
    July 28, 2020 8:18 AM PDT

    I'd be interested in how much time it would take to repair at an NPC.  

    So lets say the entire group wipes deep in the dungeon. All players respawn with their damaged gear on so they all agree that they need to head to the bank to pick up coin, then head to the repair NPC, then meet back up at the entrence to the dungeon.  Does this add 5 minutes?  20 minutes?  Obviously it depends on where they are bound, if there is a bank nearby, and if there is a repair NPC nearby.  

     

    As far is being repaired by PC's it seems obvious in my mind that this option would be faster, depending on the process.  I can imagine the group agreeing to meet back up at the entrence to the dungeon and either repairing each others gear or finding another player in the dungeon to do the repeairs.  I imagine a crafter sitting inside a dungeon advertising to repair gear for groups as a way to make money, etc.  

     

    There is a lot I like about durability, but there is one thing I really despise.  When a player joins my group (yes pugs) and then all of a sudden remembers he needs to go repair all his gear.  "Oh wait, I'll be back in 10 minutes, need to repair."  I guess at this point I should just /kick said player for forcing 5 other people to wait longer due to his unpreparedenss.  Of course, if items can be repaired in the field this might not be as big of an issue.  Maybe someone in my group or a nearby group can do the work for him.

    • 9 posts
    July 28, 2020 8:34 AM PDT

    I dont think repairing out in the thick of a dungeon should be possible i believe repair locations should have an anchor in order to make players have to retreat from dungeon- regroup-repair-venture out and try again. For instance you shouldnt be able to repair a sword or sheild with an anvil in your backpack. I think you should have to visit a forge in order to do this.

     


    This post was edited by Jigantor at July 28, 2020 8:39 AM PDT
    • 667 posts
    July 28, 2020 8:41 AM PDT

    I've got no problem with that having to repair, having to do it near a forge, having to spend money for it, etc.  The cost of death should be great.  

    The main problem I have with durability loss and repairs is that it tends to break up groups, not support groups.  How many times did you end a session with "welp, it's time to repair, we might as well just quit now." 

    • 9 posts
    July 28, 2020 9:02 AM PDT

    That mindset is built due to an Over-arching expectation in games of being able to complete a dungeon without having to repair. If the game is hard enough youll go into a dungeon with the expectation that you wont complete it your first try and in turn expect to make a few trips.

     


    This post was edited by Jigantor at July 28, 2020 9:02 AM PDT
    • 667 posts
    July 28, 2020 9:06 AM PDT

    Not true at all.  I have no intention of "completing" dungeons in this game.  I expect to find a group of friends, find a good place to hang out and fight bad guys.  Gain experience, loot, adventure, have fun, and DIE a lot.  Dieing in EQ was a reason some people would be done for the night.  I just don't want repairs to be another reason people are done for the night.  

    I guess the point of my concern leads to this question:  Does durability loss encourage or discourage group play?

     

    Maybe one way it would encourage group play is if there is a group discount on item repairs, lol ... no idea on this, but I'd like to think of ways durability loss would encourage grouping.


    This post was edited by Ranarius at July 28, 2020 9:43 AM PDT
    • 1757 posts
    July 28, 2020 10:02 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    In your examples, @Nephele, specifically the last one, the item goes from perfectly fine to shredded because of a single death?  Is it your intent that the degree to which some item gets damaged is due to RNG?  If so, then I'd be wholly against that.

    With most durability mechanics, the degree to which an item is damaged is predictable (say 2% loss per death), and can be planned for (my gear is at 85%, I can last one more night before needing to repair) but if your idea goes with an RNG approach, you could enter a dungeon at 100% durability on all your gear, die once and have a random item nearly destroyed, potentially forcing you to leave and go fix it.  Is that really any fun for anyone?

    I was envisioning like a 1% chance per item or something, so yeah, RNG.  I get what you're saying about it being unpredictable though.  I'm not sure I have a really good response for you there.  Would we rather that durability be predictable, boring, easily mitigated, and ultimately feel like a meaningless tax?  Or would we rather that it be less predictable, potentially harder to deal with, but feel more special and meaningful as a result?  It's going to inconvenience players either way - which is sort of the point of it, really.  So which kind of inconvenience is better?

    Darchius said (via discord):

    ... maybe have an RNG gate so you can't break more than 2 or 3 items per death regardless of how unlucky you are

    This is probably a good modification to my idea.  Maybe only a max of 3 items can be damaged at one time or something, and the system stops breaking your stuff after that happens.

    Vandraad said:

    Also, the notion that the items lose effectiveness is something I would also have an issue with as it compounds the penalty.  You're already paying a monetary penalty, which is the whole point of durability repair costs (the money sink) but now you want to make the act of adventuring even more punishing?  Oh, I get that it is more realistic that a damaged weapon or piece of armor becomes less effective, but yet are you allowing someone to repair a metal item out in the field?  That shattered shield which should require a forge to repair will be performed out in the wild how exactly?  Right..'magic'.

    Lets look at one of the big points VR has made over the years, the one that single stat points will matter.  So that shield could very well just have a couple points of AC, say 5 AC, and 1 point each in Strength and Stamina.  How would you go about making that less effective when you have just 1 point in STR/STA?  Immediatley go to 0?  cut it by 10ths?  100ths?  Do we really want to see a damage item with 0.987 STR because of damage?  If you stick with whole point adjustments, reducing AC by just 1 point cuts its effectiveness by 20%.  So just 1 death and that shield loses 20% effectiveness. Is that fair?  Is that fun?

    In a "traditional" durability system, items "break" when their durability hits zero - meaning that the player is forced to repair item or they gain no benefit at all from using it.  In my idea, the item is still usable once it's damaged, but its effectiveness is reduced.  I'm not sure how that constitutes a double penalty.

    You are correct on scaling with low numbers but I submit that this is not an unsolvable problem.  Yes, lower-power items may be affected more by being damaged because there are just fewer "points" to take away from overall, but since Pantheon is a level-based game, the impact of that hit probably still hurts more on higher level items.

    Example:  "Shredded" Condition = -20% AC, -1 to all attribute bonuses

    - On a level 10 cloak (normally 10 AC, +1 Stamina) = Shredded Cloak = 8 AC

    - On a level 30 cloak (normally 14 AC, +2 Stamina, +1 Dexterity) = Shredded Cloak = 11 AC, +1 Stamina

    - On a level 50 cloak (normally 22 AC, +3 Stamina, +2 Dexterity, +10 Cold Resistance) = Shredded Cloak = 17 AC, +2 Stamina, +1 Dexterity, +10 Cold Resistance

    So again, while I agree that stat values are important and meaningful, the item is still providing benefit even while damaged, as opposed to being completely broken as in a traditional durability system.  It seems to me that your main concern is that item damage would not be predictable (and thus not be easily mitigated) under this approach.

    Ranarius said:

    I'd be interested in how much time it would take to repair at an NPC.  

    So lets say the entire group wipes deep in the dungeon. All players respawn with their damaged gear on so they all agree that they need to head to the bank to pick up coin, then head to the repair NPC, then meet back up at the entrence to the dungeon.  Does this add 5 minutes?  20 minutes?  Obviously it depends on where they are bound, if there is a bank nearby, and if there is a repair NPC nearby.  

    As far is being repaired by PC's it seems obvious in my mind that this option would be faster, depending on the process.  I can imagine the group agreeing to meet back up at the entrence to the dungeon and either repairing each others gear or finding another player in the dungeon to do the repeairs.  I imagine a crafter sitting inside a dungeon advertising to repair gear for groups as a way to make money, etc.  

    There is a lot I like about durability, but there is one thing I really despise.  When a player joins my group (yes pugs) and then all of a sudden remembers he needs to go repair all his gear.  "Oh wait, I'll be back in 10 minutes, need to repair."  I guess at this point I should just /kick said player for forcing 5 other people to wait longer due to his unpreparedenss.  Of course, if items can be repaired in the field this might not be as big of an issue.  Maybe someone in my group or a nearby group can do the work for him.

    Jigantor said:

    I dont think repairing out in the thick of a dungeon should be possible i believe repair locations should have an anchor in order to make players have to retreat from dungeon- regroup-repair-venture out and try again. For instance you shouldnt be able to repair a sword or sheild with an anvil in your backpack. I think you should have to visit a forge in order to do this.

    Ranarius said:

    I've got no problem with that having to repair, having to do it near a forge, having to spend money for it, etc.  The cost of death should be great.  

    The main problem I have with durability loss and repairs is that it tends to break up groups, not support groups.  How many times did you end a session with "welp, it's time to repair, we might as well just quit now." 

    Two thoughts:

    1) I don't see why player repairs couldn't require the appropriate crafting facilities.  Vandraad mentioned this too.

    2) What if *some* (not all) campfires/safe spots in dungeons had the occasional crafting workstation?  For example, maybe once in a while, there's a forge.  Or a sewing table.  Or etc.  Not always, and maybe only just one (not all of them), but some.

    - Would potentially allowing someone to repair inside a dungeon (if and only if they went to the campsite with the appropriate crafting facility and there was a crafter there to do it) satisfy your concern, Ranarius?  or not really

    - Would restricting field repairs to be available only at campfires/safe spots and even then only at some of them help keep it meaningful, Jigantor?

    • 72 posts
    July 28, 2020 10:07 AM PDT

    Are the player repair 100% or is there a chance he might fail. Say your friend just reached the level to repair his Epic sword and wants to repair it for you for just the mats. Do you give him the chance or go to the forge down the street and get it repaired from a Master Blackdmith for the cost of the mats plus 75 gold ( his level will be 100% chance of repair ) What do you do?

    • 667 posts
    July 28, 2020 10:09 AM PDT

    Well, I'm not sure my concern *needs* to be satisfied.  I'm just trying to brainstorm while brainstorming is still worth it :)  

    If there is a way to repair in the field, or if players can continue to group with damaged items (less efficient but still usable), or if repairing on your way back to your group only adds a few minutes time, then my concern is not even valid.  

    It *would* make sense for NPC's to also have crafting stations throughout dungeons.  So maybe there is a "forge camp" and if you need a forge to repair items then you have to either clear that camp or ask the group that's there if it's OK for you to use the forge for a minute.  Or if you need the "sewing table camp" you do the same, etc.  It seems like it would work well with the world to assume that NPC's would have interest in crafting.

     

    • 2040 posts
    July 28, 2020 10:20 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    I was envisioning like a 1% chance per item or something, so yeah, RNG.  I get what you're saying about it being unpredictable though.  I'm not sure I have a really good response for you there.  Would we rather that durability be predictable, boring, easily mitigated, and ultimately feel like a meaningless tax?  Or would we rather that it be less predictable, potentially harder to deal with, but feel more special and meaningful as a result?  It's going to inconvenience players either way - which is sort of the point of it, really.  So which kind of inconvenience is better?

    The problem with percentages is that statistically nothing prevents you from hitting that 'low chance' every single time.  And when you look at an entire server and the number of people dying, the number of people hitting that magical number is noticeable.

    So yeah, I would prefer the boring, predictable nature of a set reduction in durability, per death, where until the item reaches 0% durability it's effectiveness is not affected.

    • 2740 posts
    July 28, 2020 12:01 PM PDT

    100% against anything like remotely similar to:  "- A "damaged" item loses some of its effectiveness. Think of the damage condition as a debuff on the item itself."

    I hated item stat/effectiveness degradation in DAoC and really never want to see that kind of thing again.