I mean, the title basically is the question, but we can talk a little more about it.
Play Breath of the Wild and Link's stamina bar becomes a fact of your life. Climbing, running, swimming, jumping up ladder rungs; you get the idea. You make food to increase stamina and get that gear set that aids your stamina. Even your horses have stamina when galloping that has to recharge.
...but MMOs never use this. Not for the player, not for the mounts. ESPECIALLY for flying mounts (which have to constantly flap wings), this makes no sense. You might have a breath meter under water, but that's about it. In WoW, you'll see a "fatigue" meter when you try to fly OR swim far to the ocean...but then it goes away when you come back, so that's not measuring fatigue, it's measuring proximity to the coast.
Half the problem with flying mounts and ground mounts is the ability to travel at speed indefinitely. On the ground, you can outrun that nasty skull level dragon that wants to eat you for lunch (not your horse, of course - internet dragons don't care about your horse, just you) or that you can fly anywhere and everywhere and ignore the world (since your flying mount never has to land and regain its energy - play ARC with flying mounts and see how that changes the game a bit, especially if your Pterodactyl doesn't have particularly high stamina and you need to land frequently.)
...so why is it that mounts/players never have stamina/true fatigue in games?
...and should they?
I suppose, primarily, it's the whole 'realism' thing. Realism is not a good reason, in and of itself, for doing something in a game, perhaps especially a fantasy game.
But, of course, some realism is good and makes things feel more meaningful and impactful.
If it is related to a game mechanic that is in-keeping with the feel of the game and has a purpose, then great. If not, then not great.
There is, for instance, apparently, a stamina (or was it endurance?) resource that restricts the length of time that abilities like "Lower Rope" can be used. This is to add peril to climbing, even when a rogue is assisting you to exceed your normal climbing skill.
But when it comes to a feature like 'travel' and putting limits on something that basic and, say, forcing you to rest at regular periods when you are running around, you have to ask, in a game that isn't really a 'survival' game, is that what you want?
If there were a 'sprint' ability that you could employ to stay clear of monsters you are fleeing from, I don't doubt that that would have some 'stamina'-based limitation, so you couldn't just guarantee escape every time. That would be a 'good' use of a 'fatigue' mechanic, in my opinion, whereas an arbitrary you-must-rest-after-X-amount-of-travel would just be an irritation.
It is notable that flying will not be a thing *at all* in Pantheon - part of the reason for that is that there is an extensive climbing mechanic VR want us to enjoy and they don't want us just avoiding content by flying over it (though climbing around it will be ok).
If there *were* a flying ability in Pantheon, I don't doubt there would be serious limitations to it, as you describe. They have chosen the most extreme limitation of flying: There will be none.
ESO has a fatigue/stamina bar when sprinting, (which is faster than running) which I like. I am almost always down for more realism. It comes down to how hard is it to program all these things in game. As a side note I am really glad there won't be flying mounts in game even though they are common in fantasy settings.
If running, the default movement option every uses 100% of the time, were to start consuming stamina where you had to stop running (or stop) for some period of time to regain stamina, the playerbase would go apopletic with rage. It would be hilarious, actually. Frankly, Walk should just be removed.
Walking is just so slow in games of this size. Especially with a return to a slower combat pace and no on demand dungeons in a GUI window. It's such an accepted thing at this point anyways I don't see it changing.
Also if you think about it like the players are of a gifted nature and not just your average towns person, perhaps we have all had training and grown up running long distances. People irl can certainly run a 10km marathon right? I don't know the size of zones but they are not that large. Yes marathons are not cross country but again we are like the cream of the crop navy seals here or something compared to the common armor NPC.
Hehe just trying to justifty it a little RP wise.
Vandraad said: Frankly, Walk should just be removed.
I disagree quite strongly there.
I would word it differently. Games should design so that walking has a purpose in a game.
You can decide to walk when you want to avoid provoking attacks. Walking can be usefull when looking for traps.
Crossing broken bridges, makeshift horizontal ladders, wooden beams or fallen trees. Walking on branches within trees or walking on sharp edges of rocks.
You might need to walk when you're holding a toxic/explosive vial or a kettle with hot liquid.
Walking could also be used when you try to avoid making noise or bumping into things.
Walking across something where wind is blowing severly, so you need to walk instead of run to avoid falling off.
I agree that in most games, walking has no purpose and isn't used at all.
disposalist said:...There is, for instance, apparently, a stamina (or was it endurance?) resource that restricts the length of time that abilities like "Lower Rope" can be used. This is to add peril to climbing, even when a rogue is assisting you to exceed your normal climbing skill....
Indeed, they already mentioned on several occassions that Endurance will play a factor in certain situations.
It's not too far fetched to imagine that VR will design multiple uses for Endurance within the game. I believe something as training through a zone or hanging on to a wall while in a combat situation would be two of those scenarios.
In a sense, I already expect to encounter Endurance within the game.
This is just my own opinion, but I think there is room for a bit more realism in walking/running that we have seen in previous games.
- I appreciated how early SWG attempted to make terrain matter for walking/running, where you would slow down when climbing up a hill and so on. It wasn't a perfect but it made things feel much more "real". They added a terrain negotiation skill to mitigate it, which represented training, and that made sense. However later on they just gave that to everyone for free.
- In most MMOs, I find that I am annoyed by people constantly running everywhere at full speed. If they can be on a mount or have a speed buff active for more speed they do that. Honestly, I hate seeing this around me. It doesn't feel right for the game worlds at all.
- I don't mind players being able to jog indefinitely but I do think that it should be a light jog, not a flat-out sprint.
- I think that my ideal system would be one where jogging/sprinting consumes endurance just like climbing or swimming. Jogging might consume it at a very slow pace, while sprinting consumes it at a faster rate.
- I do think that there should be *reasons* why one might want to walk as well. For example, a better chance to spot the trap before charging headlong into it, or a better chance to notice the perception ping along the way.
- Primarily, what I am looking for is to see players respect the world a little more than they have in previous MMORPGs. How we travel around in the world is a big part of that. I realize that probably makes me some kind of heretic to most of the people here. Oh well.
I am going to go with "fun". This is a case of fun should trump reality. Maybe in specific cases it should be there, but not just for travel. Watch some videos on The Saga of Lucimia (another harder style MMO in development), in one of the videos the dev was showing a new character at the only starting location planned, and he had to travel up a rather large hill almost immediately. After a few steps the character went to 1/2 speed mode and the dev starting explaining their thought process on why they did that and how they made the game slower to feel bigger and cause more interaction (realistically - selling SoW/ plz sow).
What was not amusing about it was that the dev ran out of things to say well before his toon got to the top and it was just a few boring minutes of eternity watching him slowly walk up a giant hill. Everytime he went somewhere it felt like that. I agree that you can't make things too fast, travel should have more meaning, but too slow is more a slog than fun or interesting. Actually, with the exception of Days Gone (PS4 game and a motorcycle that you pretty much have to use) I almost never use mounts, I usually play a Ranger (speed buff) and mounts just never feel right to me.
On a related topic, I hope Pantheon does not feature too fast or too loud of out of breath sounds. If I play Borderlands 3, I run for like 20 seconds and my toon is huffing and puffing like they did a marathon, something I find super annoying, to the point I rarely sprint.
Renathras said:...but MMOs never use this. Not for the player, not for the mounts.
Wrong on both accounts, stamina/endurance has been added to several MMO's to varying degree. Whether it's losing stamina to jumping (shoutout to EQ), or losing endurance while fighting. BDO also has a horse stamina-like system as well.
Why hasn't it been leveraged more or better? It's probably a fine line between "practical" and "fun". If managing a resource only leads to tedium, it's a bad system. It needs to be meaningful and have a balance between usefulness and necessity. Things like Sprint from WoW having a cooldown are typically fine in my book. It's a useful ability, but not necessary, but if i manage the resource right, it's available when i need it. Also, i'm never sitting around waiting for that resource to become available, you're always just doing something else. I think that is really key, no downtime because of stamina/endurance/whatever.
"fatigue" is something that just isn't entertaining, plus most video games tend to incorperate them wrong in some fashion. Either the fatigue meter is too quick too drain thus making it feel like your character has some health problems or on the rare occasion they're there as decoration an the only way to really 'drain' the meter is by simply running non-stop for an hour irl, rarely do video games get it right. Plus you also gotta remember that in most video games you tend to be the super powered 'demi-god' of sorts who's taken down foes that a human can never possibly take down, like in ffxiv's case surviving a blast from a planet in 'Eden Gate: Resurrection' (https://youtu.be/6rFwVll7fio?t=250).
So often companies don't bother to incorperate them into their games as such things are just unnessary for the overall design of the product since it's not built for such a feature.
Thinking back, EQ did have stamina that you lost by jumping but not from running.
I'm in favor of having a stamina that drains while running. It also lets you add a sprint ability (clickable ability) to let you run fast but uses more stamina.
This gives players incentive to give stamina buffs, or some classes or races a bonus to stamina or no stamina drain at all (Monks).
bigdogchris said:Thinking back, EQ did have stamina that you lost by jumping but not from running.
I'm in favor of having a stamina that drains while running. It also lets you add a sprint ability (clickable ability) to let you run fast but uses more stamina.
This gives players incentive to give stamina buffs, or some classes or races a bonus to stamina or no stamina drain at all (Monks).
Stamina is a fine example of a feature in EQ that was never completed or never worked hehe.
It was hilarious that you could run the length of a continent non-stop, but if you jumped more than three times, you were somehow 'exhausted'.
Also there was almost no situation that required jumping (and it was so tricky and buggy that no one would risk jumping 12 inches of lava. Better to run around even if it took a while!)
Having stamina is Pantheon would be great if it's made functionally useful, meaningful and fun, not just an unnecessary and tiresome 'realism' for no good reason.
To need stamina buffs for a long climb or a long run would be great. Maybe even a long battle?... Though needing a breather mid-battle might be a bit... annoying?
Some form of “activity” resource to manage could give real depth to the game, any game really. Certain actions could have a cost and benefit that will drive up immersion and the consequence of player choice.
Marching Speed below light load: Your standard movement with all buffs included. Stamina cost: Zero
Marching Speed above light load below heavy load: Your standard movement with all buffs included -25%. Stamina cost: Zero
Marching Speed above heavy load below max lift: Your standard movement with all buffs included -75%. Stamina cost: 1% of stamina per tick of movement.
Walking Speed below light load: No speed buffs and 50% of marching speed. 100% bonus to perception and the ability to find rare harvestable. Stamina cost: regain 5% of max per tick.
Walking Speed above light load below heavy load: No speed buffs and 50% of marching speed. 50% bonus to perception and the ability to find rare harvestable. Stamina cost: regain 1% of max per tick.
Walking Speed above heavy load below max lift: No speed buffs and 50% of marching speed. Stamina cost: zero.
Sprinting Speed below light load: Your standard movement with all buffs included +400% of base. Stamina cost: 5% per tick
Sprinting Speed above light load below heavy load: Your standard movement with all buffs included +200% of base Stamina cost: 10% per tick
Sprinting Speed above heavy load below max lift: Not possible.
Mounts and vehicles can have similar structures though I would add a penalty to perception and the inability to spot rare harvestable while riding either.
While getting most players to walk instead of jog (the normal movement speed in most MMOs) might be more realistic, it's also not fun, so most games don't invest resources into coming up with systems to encournage you try to have less fun. Certain "realistic" elements in a game are important because they help ground the game and help us suspend disbelief by making the world feel real, but these elements should never come at the expense of fun. And elements like that are usually only fun if they require tactical descision making.
Renathras said:...so why is it that mounts/players never have stamina/true fatigue in games?...and should they?
Some MMO's have this. As well as some other action games. I am okay with this depending on the game. Not with MMO's.
You want to tie stamina to actions, like Dark Souls? Okay, I'll play. You want to tie stamina to how far I have to run? In a game where I have to already run for 15-45 minutes to get somewhere? No thanks. Not unless you provide ample stamina potions like in Diablo 2. There was some cool tactical shooter that came out, it looked super cool except you had to worry about fatigue, disease, eating, pooping, changing clothes, no thanks. Just no thanks.
Kingdom Come Deliverance is as detailed as I can stand.
Flapp said:Pantheon should leave mounts of all kinds out of the game. Never had them in EQ and never wanted one.
of course we may have to rethink that since the announcement that buffs will be short duration and weak sauce because of level scaling....
Most buffs are permanent and work just fine.
Only when you are buffing outside your party are they weakened and shorter, which is a good idea to stop the rampant powerleveling that occured in games like EQ.
Yeah it might have seemed 'fun' to get buffed so that encounters that should have been a challenge - or even impossible - could be taken on. That can still be done, just not to such a ridiculous level and not for long.
More than worth it to have a game that is consistently challenging.
In EQ it quickly became a meta to beg for buffs from high level characters and a lot of people wouldn't even venture out without being PLed in some way. Why would you when you could make the game 'easy'?
Not a good thing.
As for mounts/travel, it was equally trivialised in EQ with long term non-party buffs. No one went anywhere without first begging for a Spirit of Wolf. I hope the teleport taxi services are nerfed somehow too.
People need to learn to stop wanting the game to be easy and to enjoy the challenge.
I think running shouldnt take stamina, i just dont think it works in a game like this. However I think it would work for mounts, so they can have a steady trot speed and a faster sprint speed which uses the mounts stamina (Like the zelda games) that would be fun.
Renathras said:I mean, the title basically is the question, but we can talk a little more about it.
Play Breath of the Wild and Link's stamina bar becomes a fact of your life. Climbing, running, swimming, jumping up ladder rungs; you get the idea. You make food to increase stamina and get that gear set that aids your stamina. Even your horses have stamina when galloping that has to recharge.
...but MMOs never use this. Not for the player, not for the mounts. ESPECIALLY for flying mounts (which have to constantly flap wings), this makes no sense. You might have a breath meter under water, but that's about it. In WoW, you'll see a "fatigue" meter when you try to fly OR swim far to the ocean...but then it goes away when you come back, so that's not measuring fatigue, it's measuring proximity to the coast.
Half the problem with flying mounts and ground mounts is the ability to travel at speed indefinitely. On the ground, you can outrun that nasty skull level dragon that wants to eat you for lunch (not your horse, of course - internet dragons don't care about your horse, just you) or that you can fly anywhere and everywhere and ignore the world (since your flying mount never has to land and regain its energy - play ARC with flying mounts and see how that changes the game a bit, especially if your Pterodactyl doesn't have particularly high stamina and you need to land frequently.)
...so why is it that mounts/players never have stamina/true fatigue in games?
...and should they?
I'm not sure if you'd call the "online" version of Red Dead Redemption 2 (called Red Dead Redemption 2 Online) an MMO or not. There can only be up to like 25 people per session.
That said, using it as a modern example. Both yourself and your horse can become fatigued and your stamina drains when running, melee fighting, whatever. Your horse can be killed. It takes up to,. I believe it's, eight minutes for you to be able to re-spawn your horse once it has died. They can be revived if you get to them within a certain amount of time, but once revived, their health and stamina are low until you feed them. The same for yourself. Your health and stamina are low after you re-spawn after a death. Your, and your mount's, health and stamina naturally decrease over time but can be replentished with food.
To me, these would be good mechanics to include in Pantheon. It adds "realism, aka immersion, without being super intrusive, and gives a legitimate reason for food and drink in the game.
Dark Age of Camelot did this quite well. You could walk, but I never saw the point / benefit of this given the fact that it didn't affect aggro radius / detection, you could run / jog indefinitely (standard MMO travel pace) and you could sprint, which was toggled on / off and consumed stamina. This made the decision to flee from a fight you could not win (mobs didn't follow you indefinitely) quite tactical as the stamina you used to carry out combat styles (melee attacks) were also linked to it, so, if you used all of your stamina attacking the mob, then realised you needed to get away, you simply couldn't because you had depleted your available stamina (which didn't regenerate whilst you were active, unless you had a buff which affected it during combat / activity).
For clarity, you could still run at standard pace if your stamina was depleted, you just couldn't sprint, which was what you needed to do to escape an enemy.
This is why I like the food/drink system like it was implemented in EQ. Satisfying realism without crippling us! There's really something subtly joyous about picking up food/drink at a settlement before adventuring out into the wilderness. It was such a basic, easy, cheap thing, and added a whole lot more than its parts. And to whomever thinks walking should be removed -- NAY! Even if it has no practical purpose, walking can be fun flavor.