I've been watching a YouTube series on the topic of FFXIV 1.X which is, frankly, fascinating. I'm not the content creator, but the guys that do the "Fall and Rise of FFXIV", "Remnants of a Realm" (shows things from 1.X that made it into the 2.X+ game), and "Secrets of a Realm" (where they discuss things that were never explained/didn't make it into 1.X/use a private server to explore things in 1.X that were never opened to the public like dungeons, etc) are, honestly, documentary level good - any FFXIV player should give them a watch, but some of them are pretty applicable to a wider discussion, such as what I'm going for today. I think the username is "Speakers of Hydaelyn" (the name of both the world and patron goddess of FFXIV) if you care to view them. ONE, in particular the one on the Fesse, you should watch.
For those that don't know, FFXIV 1.X was a lot more like FFXI, which is/was an "old school" MMO, not a themepark one. FFXIV 2.X+ has flirted with "old school" things sense (the Coils of Bahamut being really hardcore, the heavy grinds for Relic weapons, and the Eureka island to name a few), which...largely were accepted by the community, though with complaints.
In any case, I watched the video on the Fesse dungeon, and the footstep part was honestly crazy creepy. Something about exploring an abandoned dungeon with no NPCs and just hearing footsteps on a PRIVATE SERVER with NO NPCS running was just uncanny. The floating head that appeared and then vanished at the end is just goosebump inducing. Whether intentional or a glitch, basically there are footsteps following him all through the dungeon. And then at the VERY end, when he glitches out of bounds, a VERY briefly viewed floating head hovering through the dungeon.
...seriously, watch that one and then come back and tell me it wasn't creepy as all hell.
But I started thinking: FFXIV 1.X failed for a lot of well known reasons (the largest being that it was borderline unplayable because of server issues and game systems that made it very difficult to actually play - or even log into - the game), along with the technical debt/limitations of the engine (many of which were inherited by FFXIV 2.X+ and some linger to this day, even with finally dropping PS3 support)
...but there was something it had that FFXIV 2.X+ does NOT:
An open world and a strong sense of mystery.
Don't get me wrong, 2.X+ has flirted with this from time to time (such as when you arrive in Novrant and can't use a mount), but is generally far more focused and thempark in construction and execution. Scripted and story driven. Which...is honestly one of its STRENGTHS, but it lacks that mystery/world feeling.
FFXIV 1.X did NOT.
The world was open (if a LOT of horrible copy-past), and the dungeons long and confusing, as well as having open world dungeons that were non-instnaced, and "Notorious Monsters". And the game, while having a level cap of 50, had monsters in far flung, dangerous areas as high as level 90 to really drive home that this was a dangerous world if you went far from civilized lands.
Likewise, granted they are empty on the private servers, but there's something about this dark, oppressive environment of a dungeon devoid of life, with winding, confusing tunnels, and NO MAP that is crazy to me.
There were a lot of things FFXIV 1.X did intentionally - and unintentionally - that MMO's just don't do (they had a period where, on log-in if you had logged out in an inn, you would have a cutscene of your character having and then waking up from a nightmare; they had a city built from scratch starting as a small camp; and they had a moon slowly growing larger in the sky as it was falling, and in the last phase, playing a creepy, ethereal theme in EVERY zone as the sky was filled with that moon and clouds/thunder/lightning EVERYWHERE in the world.)
But the unused dungeons have some interesting traits that I honestly feel could be interesting if used INTENTIONALLY.
For example, the guy in the videos walks through these empty dungeons looking at the things laying around and banners placed here and there to try to figure out what it was for. Who the dungeon might have belonged to. And, of course, a creepypasta dungeon with ghost footsteps would be cool just for the creepy factor alone!
I feel like, too often, people can't figure out that the best creepy things in the world are those that let your own mind fill in the gaps. Sometimes, several long corridors of no mobs is FAR more terrifying than finding one to fight in every walkway and room. Having "abandoned" portions of dungeons (spaces that seem to have nothing) can be really cool to build tension.
Imagine, if you will, a cave system dungeon. But one of your party notices a small entry in the rock. Maybe you need a Rogue to climb to it, or you're on a small walkway along a rock wall to your right with a yawning maw below you to the left, but there's a rock wall on the other side with a little opening...and your Druid can make a bridge across.
...entering this small tunnel, you shortly arrive in a larger tunnel which has collapsed to your left. You don't know where that path might once have gone, but you can't clear the rock, so you turn right. You notice that it's dark, but not COMPLETELY dark, and the passage slopes down to the right. Perhaps this was ones a path to somewhere?
Your party chooses to check it out. But there are no enemies. No lights. No boxes or barrels or anything.
But every now and then you hear a noise, faint, in the distance. Footsteps that stop JUST after your own party. Is someone following you?
The tunnel keeps going down and down and down, but takes on a weird, blue, ethereal light as you go. You can swear you hear old-timey music playing.
You enter a large cave with a small alter in the middle, an unlit torch before it, and a small, blue flame burning on the alter.
Now, you COULD go back the way you came...but where is the fun in that? But entering the room, you hear more sets of footsteps. And more. Every 10 feet you get closer to the alter, you hear another set. When you get to the center, you find you can interact with the flame, and light the torch.
...when you do, you hear laughter, and all around you form specters. They were invisible this whole time, but now they aren't. And they're hostile.
The fight is long and hard, but your party manages to defeat them, creepy old timey music playing the whole time. Anyone ever play Mario 64? Remember that one merry go round part with the creepy music? Yeah, that.
But when you defeat the last one, everything is dead silent.
No music, no sound.
Then the light goes out.
And then...two glowing, unholy green eyes appear as the only light in the darkness......
.
Can you imagine an MMO making a dungeon like that?
There are so many variations on "We're going to put this thing in here and let people find it on their own. See how long it actually takes... /grin", it's not even funny. The ways to make creepy, or mystery, or unknown are legion.
Yes, we live in 2020 (+, by the time Pantheon goes live), and yes, there's the internet.
But if you get a chance, look at some of the FFXIV 1.X videos some time. The amount of things that were figured out by word of mouth or that had players salivating and theorizing what they meant is crazy. The Devs did this freely, because THEY knew they were going to end the game and relaunch it, so they had a free hand to do things that MMOs normally wouldn't do, but that is what made it awesome...and is sadly lacking in the "stable" form of the game since.
For whatever reason, MMOs all "play it safe", even when the NOT safe is more fun and exciting for the players.
I'm looking forward to Pantheon for the WORLD and DANGER and MYSTERY (still will be zone based, right? So that sucks...but still!), and I wonder what kinds of things that are normally "accidents" (like the infamous "Blood Plague" in WoW) or only done when the Devs believe the game is over anyway/the end of Betas (spawn tons of mobs to attack major cities - FFXIV 1.X players formed a "Gobbule Wall" to try and stop the invasion of Ul'Dah - destroy areas/continents, etc.)
But...why make such things accidents or last-ditch?
While it's true that "accidents" are notoriously hard to plan/manufacture, the fact remains that, by looking at these things from past games, it's entirely possible to work out ways to make them happen INTENTIONALLY in games.
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Or do you disagree? I figure, if nothing else, it's worth a discussion topic. :D
While I love your thinking and agree with many of your thoughts, I am sort of confused as to what you think this should prompt for Pantheon. One of the things that we should keep in mind is that Pantheon will not use instancing for its dungeons. Thus, every dungeon is being designed in a much more EverQuest or FFXI type of way where there may be many different encounters and things happening inside that dungeon. Doubly so when you start thinking about the Perception system and how that may factor in. Most of that comes with the territory.
So, beyond dungeons simply being open-world and treated as such, what do you think Pantheon's zone designers should be doing that they probably aren't already?
Nephele said:So, beyond dungeons simply being open-world and treated as such, what do you think Pantheon's zone designers should be doing that they probably aren't already?