WalkingWaste said: @Nekentros I wasn’t specifically talking about expansions as content. I’m talking about at launch there should be enough “stuff” or “content” to keep people busy for a while. Without stuff to do a lot of players will become bored. Again I’m not saying they need a lot of stuff in the game at launch. They just need to keep a good pace for leveling, exploring, crafting, mastery, progeny, raiding. If they can keep a good pace and keep people playing it’ll mean more people in the community playing a community driven game.
I don't want enough content to keep me "busy" for a while, I want content that keeps me interested. There's plenty of games out there that have more than enough content that's just busy-work. There are very few games out there that have content that is engaging. Pantheon could launch with 20 levels, 3 dungeons, and 1 raid boss, and as long as it's the most damned fascinating 20 levels, intriguing 3 dungeons, and captivating 1 raid boss ever designed in the history of MMOs, it wouldn't matter to me one bit that it's so much less than other games.
Nekentros said:
Downfall said:Content.
Wellspring said:
Content.
WalkingWaste said:
Content.
Just out of curiosity, why do you think continuous additions of content, (What are we up to now, 26 expansions?) wasn’t enough to keep but only the most diehard eq fans playing live over the years rather than the large community that used to exist back in the day?
Content isn't the only factor, but it is the biggest IMHO. However, I do agree with you that p2w cash shops are very detrimental as well.
In regards to EQ, people quit for all different reasons. Personally... I switched over to EQ2 when it launched and played that for about a year. Other MMOs came out and I tried them as well. I never looked back at EQ1 until years later, and by then I was so behind and I didn't want to play catchup. I did play the EQ1 progression servers a few times which I really enjoyed, but each time I realized that I didn't have the time to commit to playing like I used to and I had to force myself to quit.
I've played Battlefield 1 for 4 years and there hasn't been any new 'content' for years.
Maybe having human opponents keeps it interesting enough.
I would hope the dynamic nature of variation in human group members would keep the game interesting.
EQ kept putting out content and I left anyway.
I'm not saying content *isn't* important, but it isn't the biggest factor for me.
Wellspring said:Content isn't the only factor, but it is the biggest IMHO. However, I do agree with you that p2w cash shops are very detrimental as well.
In regards to EQ, people quit for all different reasons. Personally... I switched over to EQ2 when it launched and played that for about a year. Other MMOs came out and I tried them as well. I never looked back at EQ1 until years later, and by then I was so behind and I didn't want to play catchup. I did play the EQ1 progression servers a few times which I really enjoyed, but each time I realized that I didn't have the time to commit to playing like I used to and I had to force myself to quit.
IMHO
Single biggest issue right there. Guaranteed Death of a game. Granted, a slow death in some cases, (Wow and EQ1) but death all the same. Like a society, or species that can no longer reproduce. They’re done!
The community of an MMO is a result of time, player retention, and new players. After the initial startup time the community thrives by player retention and new players. Each community is 95% server based. Server communities won't all make it.
The mmo feel doesn't exist at launch. You can't have virtual world on day 1 as no one has found their place in it. The community for each server needs about 6 months to really form. The reputations take time to spread and eventually you have community. This requires the game to have enough of a hook to simply give the community enough time to form. Some players will thrive on the chaos of a new MMO, but most need a hook beyond being the best. (around!) I say it is a hook because the game only really needs to be good enough to develop the community. Once the community exists players help keep themselves entertained.
Now there is a community on each server and within a few raid guilds even between servers to be the best. (around!) We can go back to the question of what makes the community thrive. I believe all of the responses in this thread boil down to player retention, but ignore the need for new players on each server.
There needs to be enough new players entering the server's virtual world and finding their own place and enough people sticking around to keep the world and community alive. A server of entirely new players will be the problem found at launch, the community / world simply doesn't exist yet. A server with 100% retention will result in stagnation and cannibalization of guilds as the only form of change. Stagnant communities turn toxic or become really boring.
Be it advertising, word of mouth, new expansions, server transfers, server mergers, etc please do not let the servers stagnate, this kills the community.
Jobeson said:The community of an MMO is a result of time, player retention, and new players. After the initial startup time the community thrives by player retention and new players. Each community is 95% server based. Server communities won't all make it.
The mmo feel doesn't exist at launch. You can't have virtual world on day 1 as no one has found their place in it. The community for each server needs about 6 months to really form. The reputations take time to spread and eventually you have community. This requires the game to have enough of a hook to simply give the community enough time to form. Some players will thrive on the chaos of a new MMO, but most need a hook beyond being the best. (around!) I say it is a hook because the game only really needs to be good enough to develop the community. Once the community exists players help keep themselves entertained.
Now there is a community on each server and within a few raid guilds even between servers to be the best. (around!) We can go back to the question of what makes the community thrive. I believe all of the responses in this thread boil down to player retention, but ignore the need for new players on each server.
There needs to be enough new players entering the server's virtual world and finding their own place and enough people sticking around to keep the world and community alive. A server of entirely new players will be the problem found at launch, the community / world simply doesn't exist yet. A server with 100% retention will result in stagnation and cannibalization of guilds as the only form of change. Stagnant communities turn toxic or become really boring.
Be it advertising, word of mouth, new expansions, server transfers, server mergers, etc please do not let the servers stagnate, this kills the community.
Well said!
I believe that's what happened with Vanguard. Although a fun game, it lacked the polish and content at launch needed for players to stick around for 6 months in order for a thriving community to form. And due to the bad repuation, new players stopped joining and the community eventually became toxic & boring.
Zorkon said:Wellspring said:Content isn't the only factor, but it is the biggest IMHO. However, I do agree with you that p2w cash shops are very detrimental as well.
In regards to EQ, people quit for all different reasons. Personally... I switched over to EQ2 when it launched and played that for about a year. Other MMOs came out and I tried them as well. I never looked back at EQ1 until years later, and by then I was so behind and I didn't want to play catchup. I did play the EQ1 progression servers a few times which I really enjoyed, but each time I realized that I didn't have the time to commit to playing like I used to and I had to force myself to quit.
IMHO
Single biggest issue right there. Guaranteed Death of a game. Granted, a slow death in some cases, (Wow and EQ1) but death all the same. Like a society, or species that can no longer reproduce. They’re done!
You make a good point as well. Like Jobeson said after you, new (and returning) players need to feel like they can easily join the game years after launch.
Wellspring said:Zorkon said:Wellspring said:Content isn't the only factor, but it is the biggest IMHO. However, I do agree with you that p2w cash shops are very detrimental as well.
In regards to EQ, people quit for all different reasons. Personally... I switched over to EQ2 when it launched and played that for about a year. Other MMOs came out and I tried them as well. I never looked back at EQ1 until years later, and by then I was so behind and I didn't want to play catchup. I did play the EQ1 progression servers a few times which I really enjoyed, but each time I realized that I didn't have the time to commit to playing like I used to and I had to force myself to quit.
IMHO
Single biggest issue right there. Guaranteed Death of a game. Granted, a slow death in some cases, (Wow and EQ1) but death all the same. Like a society, or species that can no longer reproduce. They’re done!
You make a good point as well. Like Jobeson said after you, new (and returning) players need to feel like they can easily join the game years after launch.
Maybe people need to get away from the idea that the game is only at the top end and what is really needed is just making sure the journey is enjoyable. Focus less on the trap of constant vertical progression and top end content with expansions and more on horizontal progression and content for early to mid levels just as much as high levels.
Iksar said:Wellspring said:Zorkon said:Wellspring said:Content isn't the only factor, but it is the biggest IMHO. However, I do agree with you that p2w cash shops are very detrimental as well.
In regards to EQ, people quit for all different reasons. Personally... I switched over to EQ2 when it launched and played that for about a year. Other MMOs came out and I tried them as well. I never looked back at EQ1 until years later, and by then I was so behind and I didn't want to play catchup. I did play the EQ1 progression servers a few times which I really enjoyed, but each time I realized that I didn't have the time to commit to playing like I used to and I had to force myself to quit.
IMHO
Single biggest issue right there. Guaranteed Death of a game. Granted, a slow death in some cases, (Wow and EQ1) but death all the same. Like a society, or species that can no longer reproduce. They’re done!
You make a good point as well. Like Jobeson said after you, new (and returning) players need to feel like they can easily join the game years after launch.
Maybe people need to get away from the idea that the game is only at the top end and what is really needed is just making sure the journey is enjoyable. Focus less on the trap of constant vertical progression and top end content with expansions and more on horizontal progression and content for early to mid levels just as much as high levels.
Very true. I could not give a flying fark what other guilds have managed to achieve, except for inspirational purposes. I am bemused by people saying they don't want to play a game where they feel 'left behind'. It is not a competition and horizontal progression is very important (I would say more important).
BUT if someone joins a game years in and *there are no* players at the lower levels to group with, that is obviously a problem.
I do not know the answer, but VR (and all MMO companies) need to work out how to keep new players together, but mix in old players (and encourage replay for the older players).
I might reply longer on this later on but here goes:
A game that isn't aiding players facilitation but rather actively pushes and stimulates community interaction through well thought out game design.
The ease of life features can be good for a single player and that 1 play session of that player, but in the long run hurt the connection of that player within the overall game/server community.
I believe it requires balls but also transparancy from the designers. Balls to not give in to the whinings of players who want it easy or better pure for self gain or short term (tunnel vision) gains.
And transparancy to be outfront about how you design, why you choose specific designs or in other words, that you clearly vocalize to the community and other future players what you can expect in this game and what you WILL NOT be getting within that game with the future development of the game after launch and many years to come in mind.
VicNuggets said:I'm going with 100% community. I have played a single game for years with little new content simple because of my friends. I have also quit playing games with a ton content fairly quick because of the lack of in-game friends.
Especially in these days where people are eager to connect with others, while being locked inside their homes.
I get that you're saying that and in a way it is logic.
However, a community even before launch is a product of how you depict a game. And after launch, it still is a product of a player population that is willing to be present within that game.
What the culture of that community is before, at launch or years after will differ. Partially because of how that community itself behaves. Partially.
I believe that first and foremost a game has to foster by requiring players to communicate and group to achieve common interests. If a game doesn't do this from a very early level and only emphasizes it at endgame for raiding and PvP then what it has created is a pseudo community that lacks stability when tested. Matchmaking systems that remove the need for communication don't foster a strong healthy community. What they do is act as another system that aids and abets in creating a pseudo like community structure.
Systems that promote an "us vs them" mentality and that can be exploited by the player base are bad. A prime example of this is an achievement system that can act as a gateway to locking players out of content if they don't have certain achievements completed. WoW's achievement system is a good example of this in action because not having certain raid related achievements can lock you out of grouping opportunities within that community.
Decent class balance, dynamic gameplay, and the removal of a traditional meta are also key to fostering a good community. Meta gameplay is another of those things that can place limits on community interactions. Classes that are perceived as weak in the meta by the community may be looked over for certain content and players who main these classes may suffer as a result. Classes should be designed with strengths and weaknesses in mind, however, dungeons and other game content should be designed in a way that every class has an opportunity to shine and the gameplay should allow for dynamic variance.
Addons are another thing that can be harmful to a community. There are some out there that are capable of scanning a player's progress in certain content and can act as community gateways much like achievements tied to raiding progress. Damage meters are nice but they can easily be abused and misinterpreted. For example, if you have a wizard who has to step in and CC because your enchanter died, then the wizard is going to suffer a DPS loss but them stepping in and providing crowd control might just be the reason your group kills the encounter.
And then in general elite and toxic mentality really isn't healthy for a community and these being promoted through the general design of the game, the general gameplay loop, formation of meta gameplay, and then the use of addons really isn't healthy for the longterm stability of a community.
One thing is sure, content is NOT an important factor.
The incredible success of TLPs started in EQ with Fippy server and that was now even copied by WoW demonstrates clearly that content plays a very small role in creation of thriving communities . The EQ TLP server Aradune had 3 hours queues and thousands of players. The TLP content is low (only EQ classic) compared to the 20 and some expansions on live. On top Live is F2P while a TLP needs a subscription . Yet the players massively prefer the TLPs and create thriving active communities . Actually what happens is the contrary - the population gradually decreases when the content increases with new expansions . So content is not the reason for thriving communities and never was .
I think that the reason of game communities thriving and declining is the inevitable aging process. All MMOs are born, grow older and finally die. Inexorably.
The aging process is uniquely dictated by the balance between arrival of new players and departure of old players. During the youth period the former largely outnumber the latter and communities are created all over the place. At some point in time the 2 flows are equal and after that the latter start to outnumber more and more the former . Always. In all MMOs and regardless how good or inspired the developpers are.
So the only thing that can be changed with a good design and an inspired developement team is how long the youth period will last, well knowing that it cannot and will not last forever. The youth of SWTOR was only about 1 month . The youth of EQ was somewhere around 3 years. I will not go in depth what are the factors that the youth is rather longer than shorter as other posters already mentionned most of the relevant factors .
I would only stress 2 that seem major to me .
First is the immersion . The players do not reduce the game to hitting a key in some sequence and with some speed in order to get some reward (loot) . They have emotions - fear, joy, curiosity, surprise. Emotions are always an added value but I don't know and think that nobody knows how to create them. Some have the gift and some don't. I think that Brad McQuaid had this gift because both EQ and Vanguard created emotions. Probably the consistent lore, the history, the NPCs and the world design play a role that people magically identify with the virtual world and relate somehow to their character. Some more and some less.
Second is the team spirit. It is always more rewarding to live an adventure in a team rather than alone. Sharing things is also an added value. Hence, class interdependence and the necessity to form groups and guilds plays certainly a role.
Challenges & hardship.
People love a challenge but also do things the most easy way as possible. If a challenge can be handled alone, they play alone. If a challenge has to be handled with a group, then they will group. A game becomes much more fun in a group and it even becomes even more fun when you really know the people you play with. So forcing the game to be harsh and promote grouping is a very important factor to get a community.
One problem is when you have done everything and got everything it feels like finished and it becomes a drag. There is no stimulation to get the next best thing.
I always thought having equipment that lasts forever and never gets destroyed is a mistake. You do not have to agree with me in this. But It might be more fun to keep that equipment in good condition by getting the rare items from various dungeons it is made of. I also like the idea that different zones (hot/cold/windy) need different armor.
Yes one can always start a new character, but I hope the progeny system will enable to restart with your main, thus keeping you name and fame.
Two things, if you will permit.
1. Launch. A solid, smooth launch is essential. Those first impressions stick with a game, and may never really recover from a bad reputation due to a shoddy launch. Make certian those servers can handle the load. Plan for the fast leveling players - make sure they have enough to do at high level early. It doesn't have to be totally finished, just a decent treadmill.
2. Attention to detail. It may all seem like fluff - but people go freaking nuts for fluffy detail whether they want to admit it or not. People will rave about the game but not really know why. Detail will make the game seem polished, even if it's not really polished. Nice little well thought out things, interactions, visuals, intuitive actions.... It cannot be overstated how these sort of things give a huge positive impression on people and help earn a good reputation and thus longevity.
i found this little nugget and thought i'd share it. it's related to wow design philosphy, dev and community relationships, and 'fun'. might have some information valuable to devs. btw all pvp players are savages, especially the ones that smile :D should definitely not trust the ones that have a nice, big, smile ^_____________________^ thank you for only having one pvp server in which we'll build a great community full of like minded individuals out to kill each other tee hee~ ps looking forward to being slayed by my fellow pvpers. i'll get you back in style. or was it spades?
Thrive:
A community thrive when it goes back to MMO roots not this cookie cutter conveyor belt system the current gen mmo feeding us. Old school like FFXI, EQ, Vanguard, (old WOW), Ultima, and other. Group EXP party is a must for "know your job/role" learning foundation, a report bug option in the game and last but not least update, updates, updates, also QoL.
Dying :
RMT spamming the chat logs, Content thats doesnt last long, Making equip/weapon useless *cough FFXIV, Cash shop, Ads, Microtransaction aka "Suprise Mechanic ~EA", Landscpace or open world have no life, Cosmetic thats out of theme with said mmo, Rainbow dyes on Gear/equipments, Gameplay value/mechanic, UI, constance server crashes.
Content Replayability: It's not the amount of content, but the replayability that matters. Look at games like Counter-Strike--that had people playing it for years and they were mostly only playing a couple maps. RTS games have to force map variety in players to avoid the same issue. Diablo I had only 13 levels but was very repeatable thanks to the random level generation.
Novelty / Newness: A big part of why first generation MMOs are so fondly remembered isn't the game mechanics, it's because they were a new, next-level kind of experience. It's like the Matrix trilogy--the first one does something so mind-bending and new that this experience can't be replicated no matter how hard they tried. We can't ever really get the same feelings were had from old-school MMOs because we're now use to and fully understand the MMO experience. It's no different than re-watching the Matrix--its still a great movie but there is no sense of discovering something new. Pantheon could exactly copy every EQ mechanic and it still won't have the same feel. The only way to recreate that feeling is to create a new next-level experience.
Shared Cooperative Experience: creating a shared, cooperative experience brings players together and helps form the social bonds that keep people playing. Creating adversarial content motivates selfish / toxic behavior, so it needs to be done sparingly and for specific reasons.
Fun Time vs Downtime Ratio: This is a huge one for me. All MMOs require a certain amount of busywork / downtime. But when we perceive that we are spending too much time on the busywork / downtime and not enough doing fun things, the game stops being fun. The challenge for developers is that what some people consider boring busywork is considered fun by other people. The best solution is to minimize time needed on things many people find boring and to make them as enjoyable as possible. Some examples:
disposalist said:.I do not know the answer, but VR (and all MMO companies) need to work out how to keep new players together, but mix in old players (and encourage replay for the older players).
VR could fix this issue and augment the death penalty for max level characters by making them re-earn lost xp (that caused a delevel) only through joining a lower level team. This keeps a real penalty for dying at max level and it augments the amount of people looking for a low level team.
disposalist said:BUT if someone joins a game years in and *there are no* players at the lower levels to group with, that is obviously a problem.
I do not know the answer, but VR (and all MMO companies) need to work out how to keep new players together, but mix in old players (and encourage replay for the older players).
Seems obvious, though not overly popular.
Do away with vertical progression. 50 levels is all there is all there ever will be.
Continually add Horazonatal progression, races, classes, starting cities, Dungons, all within the origanal 50 levels, change up some of the existing content maybe
The handfull of folk that can't deal (this would be the same handfull that are still playing Wow and EQ, that REFUSE to start agan and replay the game or play another game) will get boared and leave yes.
But these others, the greater majority, ARE willing to start over, thats what there already doing, there moving on to other games, starting new char's in new worlds.
Every expansion, NEVER go UP... ALWAYS go Sideways Wider