Just out of interest and for a bit of fun, but mainly this really intrigues me as to peoples why's and whats on this subject!
If someone gives you a decent item that is an upgrade for you, that they just won in a roll while in a PuG with you...
1. Do you take it, say thanks (and the interaction ends there)
2. Take it and think, he could have sold it... to bad for him
3. Take it and try hard to find an opportunity to pay it back (maybe in an item he / she might use) if not, pay it forward instead
4. Take it and swear to repay it, turn up 10 levels later with some wicked balling item that he/she can use and surprise him/her with it
4. Thanks but no thanks... Dont accept it
5. Thanks but no thanks... Derrek needs is WAY more than I do.. (camera pans to derrek, tanking in his underpants)
6. Insert Your own option here
What if you were on the othr side, would you gift an item to a PuG member who could really use it? that dude still searching for a decent weapon, still wearing rags, playing well but sht out of luck with drops.
1. Maybe you would, but you need payment for that or a barter?
2. Maybe it would be a gift with a request to pass it forward
3. Maybe it would be a straight up.. No way.
4. What if your group was pressuring you to make the donation, maybe you have already won 3 of 5 total drops so far with some a random luck, does that change anythign for you?
5. Your own option. What might be a scenario that makes you want to gift it, or alternative what is a scenario that you would definitely NOT gift an item to someone, no matter their gear.
For me, it's a "pay it forward" situation. If I'm on the receiving end, I'll say thank you, note the person who gave it to me, and donate to someone else down the road. I'll be playing enough to where I'll get plenty of goodies. No reason to be greedy and if I can make someone's day and make a group member better geared, then I wouldn't give a moment's thought. Community matters!
Assuming they got it from a random roll.
I will ask if they are sure and would they like payment - to open the door to them not feeling bad if they kinda would.
If they are sure, then, sure I'll take it.
I will make a note of that person and try and repay them in some way later when I can, even if it's just with a favour or my time.
As for feeling pressured to do the same if someone else clearly Needs the item and I won it in a random roll: Maybe. Depends on how long I've been PUGing with that person, what they've been acting like, whether I've been really lucky lately and a lot of other aspects.
Loot should be allocated on a random roll and people should not feel pressured. That is fair. If I've won 3 of 5, or even 5 of 5 in one session, maybe I haven't won anything for weeks before that. That's why random is fair - you can be unlucky, you can be lucky, but things even out eventually without human interpretation or bias and in the meantime no one has reason to be upset, you just commiserate with others' bad luck, celebrate others' good luck and barter/trade/gift as you want without pressure.
For me this is one of the fun things about MMORPGs, and very much a Terminus thing. You can get a great item from someone you barely know, and they give it to you, just because. You can totally make someone's day by giving someone else a cool thing they need. Random acts of kindness. They're just photons after all. It can make you feel good helping somebody. It was a definite thing in EQ. My favorite guild used to invade low level zones to buff and help the young ones, with buffs, plat and gear. Good times. I hope to do that a lot in Terminus.
Although I have accepted an item or two on occasion, I generally don't like the feeling it gives me in terms of an overall sense of accomplishment when I do.
As far as being on the other end of that situation, I generally never roll on an item that I can't use if there is someone in the group who can, unless the group is insistent on a total ffa that is. In cases like that, I think from time to time I may have donated the item that I couldn’t use to either a friend or a guild member after the fact, but never anyone who was in the group when it dropped, since those were the loot rules they were so insistent on. It's kind of a reap what you sow thing for me.
If someone tries to give me an item in a pug then I say thanks and accept unless there is someone who needs it more and can make better use out of it. Sometimes I decline the item especially if I know it sells and the sell value is higher than the use that I would get out of it, and tell the person to sell it themselves.
Now for me, I may consider giving something away but it depends on who it would be going to and the impact of that decision. I am the type of person who will forgo a roll on a slight upgrade or even a semi-major upgrade if it means that a fellow guildy gets a drastic upgrade. However, if pug is running with the guild then I will be rolling on the item and praying that the fellow guildy or myself get the item because I know that is going to benefit our ability to progress in the long run.
I believe that is is really important to help others out, but you also have to critically decern what giving away an item means and then make a well-informed decision that you can live with.
I usually lead my adventure parties and set the loot to NBG as default. I believe in the old school social construct of letting people get dibs on upgrades. In my experience, this leads to more personable interactions between players. In any event, I think it's a good idea to give players a variety of looting options and let them figure it out from there. There is no "one size fits all" solution.
The OP said "decent item" so we aren't dealing with something epic here.
The OP said "won in a roll" so it was either a greed roll where you couldn't or didn't roll need or it was a need roll where they thought better of it after winning. Maybe they even clicked need by mistake - which does happen.
I would thank them, accept the gift, ask if I could help them with anything, and check their guild name if I didn't know it already (maybe I need a guild - maybe they do - in any case good to know what guilds nice people are in).
In general I treat PUGS just like I treat a group of friends. ... and no, I don't expect the others in my PUG to do the same, but if they do it's awesome.
With that said, in my opinion, he should have never looted the item if it wasn't an upgrade for him and it was an upgrade for me. So, I'd accept it and say thank you!
As I said, I realize not everyone has these feelings about pugs and who gets what items, that's just how I roll.
If it were the other way around and I knew someone in the group needed it as an upgrade I wouldn't loot it in the first place.
If I find myself in a PUG where all items are rolled on without regard to who needs what then I'll also roll for it as well even if I know someone in the groups needs it because it gives them twice the chance of getting it (their own roll + my roll).
Great responses and really interesting, as I thought there is so much empathy among The old school gamers when it comes to loot sharing, Ranarius last paragraph raised an interesting thought, what's the ethics on ffa roll system, to rolling on behalf of someone else. I've done it, now I'm wondering if it is not really fair or is it fair because it is at the individuals players discretion to do with their loot wins as they want. I'm big on pass it forward, having the opportunity to repay someone directly, I'd try to do that too, but pay it forward is a wonderful community building exercise in my opinion
Hokanu said:
I've done it, now I'm wondering if it is not really fair or is it fair because it is at the individuals players discretion to do with their loot wins as they want.
For me, it's entirely situational.
If I’m in a PuG where more than half of the group insists on FFA, but there also happens to be other(s) in the group besides myself who have made it known to me that they are not really ok with FFA but are going along with it anyway because it's late at night and there isn’t really anyone else on to group with, then I see no issue in terms of fairness if we both try to increase each other’s odds of getting a class specific item.
I would absolutely not do this under a need/greed format though because it creates an imbalance in terms of odds for those members of the group who could use the item
Hokanu said:a PuG with you...
2. Take it and think, he could have sold it... to bad for him
3. Take it and try hard to find an opportunity to pay it back (maybe in an item he / she might use) if not, pay it forward instead
4. Take it and swear to repay it, turn up 10 levels later with some wicked balling item that he/she can use and surprise him/her with it
When I've receiving the item; I'll kindly accept. I'll remember their names and from that point I'll aid them wherever I can in the future. Be that with quests, mobs, items or other.
If I'm handing out the item, I wouldn't think twice to donate the item. The player's reputation and actions during the pu-session would determine how willingly I'll part with the item. Kind, active, cooperative players will get it without much fuss. Someone who's tagging along, being afk most of the time...well I'll grind my teeth a bit when I give it away. In the latter scenario, I might not hand out a second item without having a throughough discussion about it.
I hardly ever ask for a payment when I'm handing out gear that people need. It's my way of curtsey towards the community.
i would take and thank. i'd add them to friends list and say thanks again a few days later. i would look for opportunities to repay them. (i'm a cleric so help with corpse and ress etc) or maybe i get an item his class can use.
i would ask why they are giving it lol. are you sure? why you giving to me?
maybe strike up a little conversation. meet a new friend? maybe they're a weirdo with a dorf cleric fetish?
if i saw that the tank was basically naked but was being cool, i'd ask the person that gave it to me if they offended if i passed it to the tank. unless i am also naked. but if i had some gear and tank was needing, i'd pass it along.
i would prefer a true need (will absolutely wear it and not sell it in an hour) / greed. if people hang and group, we can all end up with an item.. i'm not one of those that gets loot and bolts. that's not cool.
I'm pretty big on number 3. I'm pretty big on the need before greed in a group. If it's an actual upgrade I always think it should go to the person that can put it to use right away first. So if the group leader has instead opted we all roll need on everything, I'm still going to be on the lookout for if I win if there's a person in the group that might can put it to use and offer it up. Only exception being if said person is being an unpersonafied and exceptionally greedy ass. I'd hope my fellow group memberswould do the same, but I don't always expect it.
Hopefully that mentality will organicly inspire people to pay it forward without the stipulation.
In another thread I suggest that the game should make a random-based decision on who gets the loot so that fairness is taken care of without prejudice, misunderstanding or interpretation. In a game with tradable items, what players do after that impartial allocation is done is up to them.
I just want to note that this isn't a measure I would take because I fear what *this* community would be like. It's clear from this thread and I think from most people's comments in general in this forum that we have a good sense of reasoned fairness and of empathy, as Honaku says.
Maybe I'm a cynic, but my worry is "the public", ie. the large majority of the eventual Pantheon players. I think unless there is clear guidance, most players will not have as much empathy or experience of sharing nicely. They certainly will not appreciate the nuances of the different 'normal' looting systems.
Let's face it, we do not entirely agree on what is a 'good' or 'fair' looting system, so why would we expect less 'involved' players to do so?
What VR picks as a default will be taken to be 'the right one'. It would go a long way toward a more pleasant experience if that is an impartial and fair one and even one that somehow encourages sharing.
I guess I'll use a real example from this last weekend. Pug group, Warrior won the roll on an item I could use, I made an offer to buy it from him. Without a word trade window popped up and he "ok'ed" it. I placed the offer in the window and "ok" the trade... he accepted the sent me a tell "I would have just given it to you"
My responce, "i seen that, I also see your unguilded, we could use some help in Hate, Fear, and Sky would you like to join us?"
He's now one of our Tanks.
His act showed character, just the kind of people were looking for.
Zorkon said:I guess I'll use a realexample from this last weekend. Pug group, Warrior won't the roll on an item I could use, I made an offer to buy it from him. Without a word trade window popped up and he "ok'ed" it. I placed the offer in the window and "ok" the trade... he accepted the sent me a tell "I would have just given it to you"
My responce, "i seen that, I also see your unguilded, we could use some help in Hate, Fear, and Sky would you like to join us?"
He's now one of out Tanks.
His act showed character, just the kind of people were looking for.
This is a great example of why loot systems should not be automated in a social game. If this was all automated there would be no opportunity for this kind of transaction to take place.
Sure, automation will save some people frustration but it also takes away any opportunity to actually get to know people.
I'm super bad at receiving things from other people, so I usually say no unless they've already put it in trade, told me to take it, and hit accept trade. From the other side, I'll always give the item up. Can always find another for an alt or whatever. And even if they're just going to sell it, I can make coin elsewhere too and rarely get bitter about farming. I like to think others might appreciate their shinies more than I, since I'm not a super material person. Plus, community points feel better anyhow.
Edit: Also, this is why tradeable gear is a beautiful thing. Whoever gets it can always gift it/sell it to someone else when they outgrow it. No longer rotting in their inventory.
Ranarius said:If this was all automated there would be no opportunity for this kind of transaction to take place.
Sure, automation will save some people frustration but it also takes away any opportunity to actually get to know people.
I agree. Furthermore, life isn't fair... Sometimes you get the short end of the stick, that's just the way it goes. I also want to know who the jerks are, so that I know what everyone's true colors are. If you are need rolling on a bunch of items you don't need and refusing to help out people in need, I know your true colors now and probably won't PUG with you again.
There is also the feeling of sweet revenge when you get something the greedy people want. In one of my old guilds I was on my main, a fresh level-capped druid, who was basically naked. In a raid with one other druid in attendance, another druid who was very well geared and was constantly out-rolling me on items that were very minor upgrades for them and huge upgrades for me. I am talking like an increase in 5 mana for them versus 200 mana, hp, and resistances upgrade for me. This happened on probably five druid drops that night. I was pretty upset but not saying anything about it because by the loot rules it was all fair.
Then the best-in-slot chest item for druids drops. So-and-so-druid exclaimed "OMG finally I have been waiting so long for this drop". I won the roll... and now was a practically naked druid save for one amazing chest. Other druid was pissed and sending me tells about how many times he's done this raid and not seen the chest drop yet. Fair is fair! Maybe if he had been more considerate earlier, I would've been more inclined to pass over the item he'd worked so hard for...
I help out when I can and I will pass on a small upgrade for myself when it is a much larger upgrade to someone else. If I don't need an item, I won't roll, unless no one needs and we are greeding for resale.
Ranarius said:Zorkon said:I guess I'll use a realexample from this last weekend. Pug group, Warrior won't the roll on an item I could use, I made an offer to buy it from him. Without a word trade window popped up and he "ok'ed" it. I placed the offer in the window and "ok" the trade... he accepted the sent me a tell "I would have just given it to you"
My responce, "i seen that, I also see your unguilded, we could use some help in Hate, Fear, and Sky would you like to join us?"
He's now one of out Tanks.
His act showed character, just the kind of people were looking for.
This is a great example of why loot systems should not be automated in a social game. If this was all automated there would be no opportunity for this kind of transaction to take place.
Sure, automation will save some people frustration but it also takes away any opportunity to actually get to know people.
It could have been exactly the same. The warrior would have won the loot via the fair and impartial automated system (which notifies everyone of who gets what) and the same social interaction could follow.
An automated system could even let players do the actual picking off the corpse, it just removes the pressure, hassle and 'mistakes' of the initial roll and allocation. It *could* further lock items to the winner (avoiding ninja looting) or even auto-loot if you are near the corpse, but it doesn't have to to alleviate the most contentious part: the allocation.
disposalist said:Ranarius said:Zorkon said:I guess I'll use a realexample from this last weekend. Pug group, Warrior won't the roll on an item I could use, I made an offer to buy it from him. Without a word trade window popped up and he "ok'ed" it. I placed the offer in the window and "ok" the trade... he accepted the sent me a tell "I would have just given it to you"
My responce, "i seen that, I also see your unguilded, we could use some help in Hate, Fear, and Sky would you like to join us?"
He's now one of out Tanks.
His act showed character, just the kind of people were looking for.
This is a great example of why loot systems should not be automated in a social game. If this was all automated there would be no opportunity for this kind of transaction to take place.
Sure, automation will save some people frustration but it also takes away any opportunity to actually get to know people.It could have been exactly the same. The warrior would have won the loot via the fair and impartial automated system (which notifies everyone of who gets what) and the same social interaction could follow.
An automated system could even let players do the actual picking off the corpse, it just removes the pressure, hassle and 'mistakes' of the initial roll and allocation. It *could* further lock items to the winner (avoiding ninja looting) or even auto-loot if you are near the corpse, but it doesn't have to to alleviate the most contentious part: the allocation.
This was an automated system...
Everquest system where each player creates a database as they go along of every item the come across, marking it , Need, Greed, Always Need, Always Greed, Never, (I think I got them all) Then the system automatically does the Random and disperses the item. You only ever have to mark an Item once.
I like it but it has a flaw created by the Market place (what type of market place is irrelevant in this case) A select few have decided “I NEED that Item so I can sell it in EC and buy what I Actually need” there are a few that insist this, and with that they are not wrong, The whole server has just opted for it and everybody flags everything (except no drop) as NEED or you get nothing.
Applying this to Pantheon Mentality "Reputation Matters" the way to control this would be not group with anyone that does it that way .... doesn't work cause then you database is flagged GREED for Items you can't use and next group the NEEDS get everything before you figure out the problem.
This would be a great system, IF the dev’s could find a way of countering this….. Some suggest If a Player can’t equip an Item the NEED button should not be available to them.
For the time being I figured out this as a work arround, if something I want drops and it's going for 400pp in EC.... offer half 200pp on the spot. I haven't been turned down yet.