I like real life physics as closely as possible. The exception to this is where magic is *clearly* involved. I don't like the excuse "it's a fantasy world" when defining how some kind of physics is different from real life, unless it is obvious that magic is involved with it. This includes things like jumping (a lot of games do jumps that looks wierd, often like you're gliding some). The obvious breakers of these rules is the use of HP and not having things mean instant death or critical damage to keep the game enjoyable (I just jumped down from a 30 foot cliff, why can I still walk?).
It's always a tricky one. How 'real' should 'fantasy' be?
Personally, I like my RPGs to be gritty but magical, realistic but not unhinged, fantastic but not ostentacious.
You should have magic and magical creatures - you can disrupt the laws of physics with that magic - but not constantly and, more important, not inconsistantly.
In my opinion, Final Fantasy and other 'eastern' fantasy tends to be too over-the-top and childish. Even though they mix in a good amount of gore and horror, sometimes, they still seem to love their cute, cartoon-esque styling even mixing the two together sometimes in disturbing ways.
Proportions of everything exaggerated to bizarre degree. It's an example of constantly and inconsistantly breaking realism. A world that obeys the laws of normal physics, but then has swords no one could ever lift and when you jump you glide to the ground.
Even World of Warcraft went to the childishly unreal styling. Warriors that make Arnie in his prime look weedy. Kung-fu pandas, for goodness sake... that development was just... *shakes head*.
I wouldn't want something too medieval and dull, though. If everything is mud huts, plague and abusive leige lords, it gets depressing.
There's a middle ground of fantastic, but 'real', that something like Tolkien's Lord of the Rings reflected beautifully. Clearly 'another world' but with enough familiarity to be very relatable.
Something like Dungeons and Dragons' Forgotten Realms did this well, too. Even when they strayed into the realm of crash landed alien flying saucers, it was presented in a way that kept the high fantasy feel. Ray guns were 'wands', plastic was 'a bone like material', aliens were 'surely cousins to the mind-flayers'. Let's keep that stuff to be rare exceptions, though.
While we are on the subject of 'real to life': God please keep the 'real life' pop culture references subtle and to a minimum and relevant. Please treat them like rare easter eggs and don't splatter them everywhere. If there's a MacDonald's farm that sells ground meat patties in bread rolls and thickly churned milk-based drinks... actually that would be fine - just don't have huge golden arches on every nearby hilltop, eh? I shouldn't have brought up the idea... We don't also need a Colonel Sanders in the Kingsreach army with a special chicken recipe...
The key there is: Yes, have pirates, but no, don't have them match the pirates in 'real life' or 'earth' culture. Of course, in Terminus, if there's boats and rogues, then 'pirates' will happen, but no Jolly Roger and Long John Silver, please. At least not overtly...
P.S. It sounds like I'm a real curmudgeon here. I actually like all manner of fantasy, sci fi and, yes, cartoons, but when it comes to what I want from Pantheon fantasy, there's one thing that I realise is important: I want to live in Terminus for hours at a time and for many years. Anything too weird would be very tiring, however much those things are good for films or even books. I enjoyed WoW, but it because eye-rollingly and forehead-smackingly childish sometimes, to the extent I would have to log off even when 'busy'. It got too much. *sigh* Maybe I *am* a bit of a curmudgeon these days, but I don't want to 'live' in a cartoon - it would give me a headache real quick - I'm also not sure the kind of people that *would* want that are the kind of community I want to be around a lot hehe.
P.P.S. I know a lot of people might view this stuff as unimportant - or at least much less important than me. I'm not a hardcore role-player, but I play role-playing games because I like to 'get into' the game world, not just 'play' a fantasy themed game. That's why it's important to me that it's something I can stand being 'in' for long periods. Would be nice if it's something even more than I 'can stand' hehe. Something I actually love would be good! We do tend to concentrate on avoiding negatives, though. Listing all the things I want would be a much longer exercise, and this post has gone on long enough already!
Enough to make the world alive and engaging, but not so much that it makes it tedious and annoying.
Like the idea we can all jog continuously with 100lbs of gear and never get tired, is unrealistic. But forcing walk speed as the stadard would drive people crazy.
Fulton said:Enough to make the world alive and engaging, but not so much that it makes it tedious and annoying.
Like the idea we can all jog continuously with 100lbs of gear and never get tired, is unrealistic. But forcing walk speed as the stadard would drive people crazy.
Very good point. I should go back and adjust my post, but I'll just agree here instead. I know I mentioned 'the laws of physics' but it's important that the realism isn't made mundane just because it's 'real'.
I know it's where arguments over eating and drinking, pooping and sleeping start, but, yes there has to be a 'fun' realism and a 'tedious' realism line - or at least grey area - that is considered.
Whew, I bet this will be a messy conversation. lol.
Kilsin, I almost wish you had said something like "We are considering whether or not to implement or remove (x,y,z) and are curious about your thoughts on whether or not they actually add an element of enjoyment to the game or are just overly tedious".
This is such a broad subject and without more specifics we could just ramble on in vain about areas that aren't even under consideration.
Honestly I like the way you guys have presented the game so far. I really wouldn’t want anything changed with the exception of maybe doing away with the whole climate system, lol, as I think it's just a bunch of busy work added to slow down consumption of content, but no seriously just stick with your plans and knock this baby out.
Nekentros said:Whew, I bet this will be a messy conversation. lol.
Kilsin, I almost wish you had said something like "We are considering whether or not to implement or remove (x,y,z) and are curious about your thoughts on whether or not they actually add an element of enjoyment to the game or are just overly tedious".
This is such a broad subject and without more specifics we could just ramble on in vain about areas that aren't even under consideration.
Honestly I like the way you guys have presented the game so far. I really wouldn’t want anything changed with the exception of maybe doing away with the whole climate system, lol, as I think it's just a bunch of busy work added to slow down consumption of content, but no seriously just stick with your plans and knock this baby out.
Just to let you know, since you are pretty new to the forums: though sometimes it can reflect what is being talked about within VR (well, that has been hinted at once or twice) mostly these 'debate' topics Kilsin puts out are simply to spark community interaction with no real 'agenda'.
Though this is a 'development' forum, these posts are a bit of an exception.
Feel free! Go wild!
To be honest, I know people do tend to post as if they are attempting to influence the devs and shape the game to thier will (me included, I know!) you really should feel free to post whatever you want, game-related. I hope you aren't put off by the often strongly 'opinionated' comments that happen (mine included!).
It all comes from our passion for the genre and the game.
Oh, and the devs do say, time and again, that they love all feedback as long as it is constructive and reasoned, even if it is debating what they themselves say. Sometimes they shut down discussions if they get argumentative and they are a subject that the devs have firmly decided upon, but mostly anything is up for discussion.
In general, the closer to realistic the better. As others have said there are certain magical laws that will be different than real life but those laws should be followed as much as is possible. Overly ridiculous or outrageous models are to be avoided in my opinion.
My biggest hope though is that Item size maters. It is very unfortunate that in a slot based inventory a chain mail shirt made of 1000s of rings takes up the same amount of space as a single gold ring. Make the bags have a total volume in the smallest item size increments and have each larger item size take up a certain number of units. Failing that make bags that have more slots but a lower largest item size such that bags made for the smallest item size have many more slots than those for the largest.
disposalist - I figured as much considering how questions that don't fit within the vision are answered during the roundtables.
Nekentros said:
Trasak said:Failing that make bags that have more slots but a lower largest item size such that bags made for the smallest item size have many more slots than those for the largest.
I read this three times and I think I have a headache now. lol
1 giant = 4 large = 16 medium = 64 small = 256 tiny
Giant items can only fit on wagons and not carried by players.
Large items can only fit in native inventory spaces.
Largest bag at maximum volume efficiency can fit 4 medium, 16 small or 64 tiny objects. The 64 slot bag can only hold tiny. The 16 slot bag can hold small or tiny and the 4 slot can hold medium small or tiny. No items will stack for purposes of taking up less space (the inventory could be a list rather than squares in which case the UI could stack them.)
I want a fantasy universe to be entirely real - to itself. Set up the basic laws including Gods and magic and then stick to them within the boundaries of the lore. Do not make irrational and unexplained changes in the lore or the laws of the universe just to make a particular storyline go more conveniently.
I want no part of the "real world" in a fantasy universe. Holidays and festivals matching the timing of "real world" holidays is fine. But for the love of the Gods do not have a Yule festival with a recognizable Santa Claus. Have a Winter Festival with some lore-based themes.
In answer to Kilsin - I prefer the term "contextual realism". You're making a fantasy world - a place where magic is probably an accepted part of daily life. How should things operate in that fantasy world? What makes sense? Above all, the point should be to keep the world believable for everyone logging in.
As far as mechanics and systems go, a similar test applies. How can you make it believable while still being fun? How can you give choices depth and meaning without introducing unnecessary complexity? There's no perfect answer, but someone should always be asking the question.
The place where I always wish for a bit more realism and depth in these games is in the abilities and skills that player characters receive. I often feel that these things are implemented in far too simplistic of a way and that in turn cheapens the meaningfulness of choices associated with them. I like things to have a little subtlety and nuance. Some practical examples:
1) Many games have weapon skills that you increase, but the skills only affect your to-hit and damage range with the weapon. I would like to see weapon skills do more things, like unlock chances for your character to do something special in combat depending on the type of weapon they were using.
2) Many games have weather (rain, snow, sandstorms, etc.) in the background but being in that as a player doesn't change anything except maybe lowering your visibility slightly. As part of the environment, weather should be something that impacts players more. If you're in a blinding blizzard you should have to struggle with visibility, wind, and increased cold. Throw that heavy cloak on, or find shelter where you can get a fire going and wait out the storm.
3) In many games, combat abilities seem to be implemented because they "sound cool" without really giving any thought to how that thing should actually work in the context of the world. Stealth effects that are essentially magical invisibility, spell effects that conjure massive things out of thin air instantly, melee abilities that feel more at place in a cartoon than they would in a more realistic scenario. I could go on but you get the idea. These are areas where I would like to see more realism because while sure, it's fun to hit a button, watch your character shout a battle cry, and see every opponent nearby scatter in terror... that really shouldn't work on every kind of opponent out there.
All of the above are places where I intend to provide specific feedback for Pantheon during Alpha/Beta. I hope others will too :)
Tough one, I like things to be as realistic as possible but ... within the fantasy realm, lol. How is that possible?!
I like risk/reward, I like consequences, I like simple things like coin weight, carrying capacity, etc but I also like magic...which is the opposite of realistic.
Oh I like the topic.
i want the the world to be unique onto itself. it's own dynamic systems. Day and night cycles a must.
Merchant ships that sell and transport goods: Ports that actually refect the local resources in the area and have limited resources from downline ports.
When it comes to skills and limited action sets; There is no arguement. it is whatever the game designers, world builders dictate.
Don't build any bathrooms, unless we can use them. /puke
Eating food and water should be in.
climbing is in, so fall damage better be in. - i think you should have advantages from attacking from above, therefor you should be able to fall and take damage.
book that contain information that is useful in the world.
a few working chessboards in the world would be nice.
I like when my world has a believable amount of realism (or at least as much as one can have in a fantasy world). Normal run speeds should probably be at a normal trot. Armor and weapons shouldn't be overlly shiny or have particle effects unless extremely rare. Of course, I still want magic and different looking races than humans haha. It's a balancing act in a giant grey area. As far as magic goes, I think a version of realism should apply. When starting out you shouldn't see magic users summoning huge bolts of lightning from the heavens but should instead progress up to these cool looking spell effects, same applies for physical combat abilities. I'm really liking what I've seen VR do with mixing realism and fantasy together so far.
P.S. I saw a post talking about item size earlier, I feel a game that made a good example of this was Dungeon Siege. Each item had an actual size and your inventory was grid based. For example, your inventory could be a 100x100 square. You could then fit in items from a 1x1 potion to a 2x3 shield as long as you had space.
Morraak said:P.S. I saw a post talking about item size earlier, I feel a game that made a good example of this was Dungeon Siege. Each item had an actual size and your inventory was grid based. For example, your inventory could be a 100x100 square. You could then fit in items from a 1x1 potion to a 2x3 shield as long as you had space.
Diablo also had a similar system. It is closer to a reasonable system but a potion to shield would be more like 64 to 1 rather than 6 to 1.
There are real benefits to having specific items having extra large or extra small sizes but not extra large weights. Large size objects soak up inventory spaces quickly so that you cannot haul large quantities back to town at a time. This is good for controlling the influx of new items and harvested goods. Very small items could be used to create many different crafting recipe permutations that could not reasonably be used if you could only have 8x8x2 items between your character and your bank.
Answering this question is kind of like answering what is porn, very hard to define but you know it when you see it. I like my MMORPG's to be like reading an excellent sci-fi/fantasy novel. Enough details to give you a good feel for the world. The story and details follow the internal logic of whatever universe is created. An engaging story line (lore) with intriguing characters.
Visually in MMO's I prefer a strong, stylistic approach as opposed to trying to make everything look like you are in the real world.
One thing that oldschool fantasy (like Classic Trilogy) got right imo is what people often describe as was a living, breathing world. People may log and plan whenever and however they'd like. When I think of 'quick, instant-gratification' I think of something like Playstation or WoW. When I think of a mmorpg as was defined, I think of Pantheon. I see a clear difference.
#communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels #worldsnotgames #sticktoyourvision #restoreMMORPG
Kilsin said: ... How real to life do you like your MMORPG's to be, is there a limit to how much the game world should imitate real-life elements, and if so, what are they in your opinion?
vjek said:I only want internally consistent. Beyond that, it's a fictional/fantasy world that I'm paying a subscription for, to be entertained. In that context, I would hope it's more fun/entertaining than tedious. I get enough tedious IRL.
I would think PlayStation and WoW to be less tedious than Pantheon, and Pantheon to be more world-oriented and tedious than PlayStation and WoW, no?
I think having a clear choice between 'quick' like PlayStation/WoW vs more goal-driven like Pantheon will be a good thing. People will decide which style fits them better and gravitate to one or the other. I do believe VR will stick to their vision instead of trying to appease every single individual. Having a clear choice of which to be in (in the mmorpg market again) will be a good thing.
I want as much realism as you can put in the game. I want to need to have food and drink in my pack. I want there to be player made edibles that give a small buff. I want items to degrade aver time. So people that make stuff can raise skills be repairing them.I want realistic looking weapons and armor, I want to climb everywhere, coin to have weight, a small bonus to logging off at an Inn. I want crafting stations to be in cities and special crafting stations in out of the way places, but never in a guild house/regular house. I want housing in each city/town. There is usually lots of empty buildings. I want to be able to show off trophy's from major mobs I've killed. I want bank storage to be really large. I want boat trips to take time, and limited teleport travel. I want an LAS where you talk about and plan the spells you're gonna use ...before.. the battle and not just mash a button for every spell/ability you have. That just means you have every spells keystroke macroed. I want there to be space and time between mob spawns. I want a full group to get more loot/experience than a smaller group, for the same mob. I want mounts because they're fun, but with only the same speed as SOW, so it's really just for fun, and to show off wealth. Climate, atmospheres, perception sound great. I'd like to be able to make maps in game.. I know some of this stuff definitely won't be in game, but the more the merrier!
It would be nice to see something a little closer to how the inventory system works in Outward. I think it would add to that "we are going on an adventure" feel. Not to mention seeing a fellowship coming back to town with their backs brimming with stuff. I think this would also help considerably with mudflation, because a lot of stuff would likely need to be left behind to rot since they just couldn't carry it all.