The problem I have with the need/greed button system is that there is often a sort of toxic pure pressure element involved which centers around either a player’s charisma or a sort of nepotism rather than pure objectivity. What I mean is that in certain guilds, items would tend to "need" to the more charismatic player(s) or "in group" characters in the guild rather than being distributed purely on an objective basis. Over the years I observed how this favoritism in various guilds would often result in what can only be described as a discriminatory social class system. Even though the guild still appeared to function from an external point of view, in reality there was this unhealthy undercurrent that existed where there was this genuine intra communication "within" a social class and then a sort of artificial inter communication "between" the social classes which simply existed out of necessity rather than out of genuine friendship. This byproduct of the need/greed system runs counter to a healthy social mechanic and for that reason, I would be more in favor of having the option to select an automated system.
is it to much to ask where the system registers that as an upgrade so you can click "need" over "greed" because honestly, its an upgrade for that toon. i dont care if your running that raid for an alt, you're playing that toon, work that all out with ya guild.
bottom line is that items should be for that character, and nothing else, hell thats awesome for ya alt, guess what? the next guy can use it for his main, you arent entitled to all the loots. Stop being greedy because you put in 40+ hours and the other 20+, he's still entitled to loot.
TLDR: You aren't king ****, other people are entitled to loot.
Reading through replies I'm a bit more torn on the subject now. I feel that there should be more than EQ1 vanilla/current pre-alpha that has Nothing, but also way less than an automated system. I think that engaging in the loot process is important, it is one of the main carrots in game. To have it be automated or personalized goes along the lines of *zerg through the instance as fast as possible with strangers never speaking beacuse you don't care and the loot just ends up in your inventory anyway*. There should not be that large of disconnect from the kill and the reward. It should be every time you kill a named or that an item drops people get Excited!
That being said, back in the day where you didn't even get a notification of someone looting was ninja heaven and you had to actually see someone bend over the corpse to catch them lol. Certainly do not want to go that far back.
I would also argue that Kilsin used the words "rolling for loot" and "interactive" in describing the system so I think at this current time automated is out anyways..
Yes NBG has a problem in defining the "need" portion. However that is better than having nothing at all oldschool, there has to be a line drawn somewhere between personal auto loot with no discussion & ninja loot without a roll. Ideally that line will allow most importantly for players to be Excited when loot drops, engaged in the looting process.
I feel like the zerg fest of dungeon finder instance, ARPG, mobile gaming, Total click fest you just tap and click non stop grabbing items up or looting corpses, or having a magical popup screen with your rewards at the end, it really detracts from the feel of being involved in the world. Loot should have meaning and suck you in to the game in a "wow that was so lucky" "wow I FINALLY got it" "wow what a surprise" "Hey mine is only 1point worse and yours is crap, you take it" sorts of ways.
Looting should not be some by-product of running through melting, it should be a big moment with meaning.
Edit: I suppose that starts to veer too far in to itemization instead of the group loot roll mechanics but I stand by my take that loot mechanics are intregal to a living world and not just a casino mindlessly pull the lever. People should talk about drops and interact over them.
This is kind of a sensitive subject for me, mainly because in a guild setting I seemed to have always fallen victim to the hand-me-down mentality rather than having a fair shot at items as they dropped. This really soured the entire experience for me.
I can completely get behind giving players the flexibility to deal with loot distribution in the manner that best suits them, but I could never support a one size fits all schema.
Loot being automatically distributed without people rolling for it - other than the game distributing trash loot automatically - no I don't like the idea. As others have said it detracts from the realism and negatively impacts the ambiance. It is an expecially undesirable system if the loot is tailored for the player rather than a loot table determining what drops irrespective of party composition. As Mary the Ogre dies is she going to swap out some plate mail for a wand because a paladin dealt the killing blow not a finger wiggler?
If loot is character-bound it should be a pure need/greed/pass roll with only characters able to use the item allowed to roll need. That button should be grayed out for all others. Ignoring considerations such as a bound item having great value for a character that cannot use it if the game allows it to be broken down into valuable componant parts.
If loot is freely tradable I can see the argument for the same system, but on balance over the years here I have been persuaded that it is fairer for anyone to have an equal chance to roll for the loot.
dorotea said:If loot is freely tradable I can see the argument for the same system, but on balance over the years here I have been persuaded that it is fairer for anyone to have an equal chance to roll for the loot.
Just for argument's sake, if everyone just has a random equal chance, can't you just automatically do that and distribute the loot to save arguments and hassle? No tailoring of the loot, but automate the roll and the actual looting (to avoid things like ninja looting).
If the group really wants to choose Need/Greed then, yeah it needs a dialog, but even then the looting can be automated to avoid... mistakes.
And if the group *really* wants to have the excitement of a master looter maybe screwing them over and the fun of clicking on corpses to find the loot they won, then they can choose that option I guess?
dorotea said:
As Mary the Ogre dies is she going to swap out some plate mail for a wand because a paladin dealt the killing blow not a finger wiggler?
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you suggesting that your understanding of an automated system is one that would determine what drops based on who dealt the killing blow? Can you please clarify?
I would rarely if ever want master looter except in a guild group.
Disposalist it may be irrational but I would rather have us all roll on a piece of loot with everyone having the same chance to win than have it totally automatic. Mostly it just feels more "normal" to me. Even if we aren't on a roll-playing server.
Nekentros I was focusing on the topic of loot being determined specifically for the person receiving it. A completely separate issue from whether loot is distributed automatically but an issue which has been raised. My preference is for the loot being class-agnostic to paraphrase an EQ2 phrase. A mob should drop the same loot unaffected by the class of the recipient. Some people argue that we should have a simple system where a boss drops a paladin item for a paladin, a mage item for a mage and so on. I disagree. Apart from it being entirely illogical (thus my reference to poor Mary - may she rest in peace) it makes gearing up far too fast and easy and reduces the time people are motivated to spend in dungeons drastically.
dorotea said:
it makes gearing up far too fast and easy
Ahh I see. That's why I would be in favor of a specific type of automated system that calculated a drop rate for non-trash items that was equivalent to the rate at which a player might receive something via the Master method, which is not very often generally speaking.
As far as what types of non-trash items a player might receive, I don't have a problem with it being tied to their class because with the type of automated system I just described, the rate at which they would actually get this item would be analogous to the rate they might get it via the master looter method, so there would be no gearing up faster.
Additionally, I also don’t have a problem with the automated system dropping items that a player cannot use as long as there isn’t that type of class in the group/raid. Of course it too would only drop at a rate which would be analogous to how often a person might receive such a high value item in the master looter method.
I might be way off other opinions here, but my feeling is the more a system is automated the less connected we are with what is and isnt coming into our inventory. Who's won what, who could use what and "hang on poor old derek hasnt had a decent win in hours, give the poor bloke that sword". When i'm in a group and were making progress and getting chummy i'd much rather through conversation be able to assist the loot to get to the best person. That might be because of their class, or maybe it's just because the poor dude has terrrible gear. Its not the automation of the random loot roll i dont like the idea of its the fact that people dont even know what they are winning and if we keep fighting and fighting and fighting, there is never a great chance to review what you have automatically won and to see if there is a much better home for that item.
I KNOW a lot of people say, hey if u dont win too bad, i'm selling it anyway (and thats fine for them to do that) i'd just like to see a system that gives that fair random rolling, but also a system that does require some concious thought at the time of the loot as to whether (based on lots of factors) the loot really going to the right place, once all parties agree there is a better home for it.
Hokanu said:
people dont even know what they are winning and if we keep fighting and fighting and fighting, there is never a great chance to review what you have automatically won and to see if there is a much
I’m starting to get the feeling that new posters haven't read through the entire dialogue because some of these new posts seem like a refutation to a completely different conversation than what has been had in this thread.
It's as if people are arguing against a version of "automation" that I have never advocated for. This makes for a frustrating conversation to say the least.
Nope, definitely didn't read it all, at work, chiming in on my thoughts on the extremities of a automated system and where it could end up. Not critiquing ur thoughts my friend.
I understand how it is frustrating, the conversations do not always stay on a tight rail from the op. it's the nature of things where we have many different opinions on various matters and all of the nuances that surround them
Ok, I thought I might have started going senile there for a minute. lol. There was someone that drive-by posted earlier, and I was like "What the heck is this guy/gal talking about?". Glad you replied though.
Nekentros said:
Ok, I thought I might have started going senile there for a minute. lol. There was someone that drive-by posted earlier, and I was like "What the heck is this guy/gal talking about?". Glad you replied though.
Sometimes at work I read a bit of a thread, get busy with work but the brain is ticking over thinking about stuff, then by the time I get back to write a post I'm deep in my own world perspective on the subject and I vomit words that can sometimes steer off track, it's totally reasonable and good for you to voice your frustration as you watch a thread potentially derail! It's really awesome you brought it up in a non combative way, makes for an easy resolution :) I'll dig deeper on the thread tonight and might be able to contribute in a more constructive way to the whole discussion. Cheers mate!
I'd be on board with an automated system with a couple of options available to the players. Options that would be nice would being able to auto-pass on all items, auto-pass on items not usable by specific class (in case you had an alt) and auto-pass on certain rarities. Then the system could prioritize loot distribution by classes in the group that can use the item (i.e. a war/cleric/pal would have first dibs on plate armor), then further broken down to overall character item level (i.e. character with highest overall item level would likely be best suited for an item unless the item-in-slot-level is higher than the droped item), then it could go to completely random group member if there were no classes in the group that could use the item. If all classes passed, the players would get an alert saying that the item would be left on the corpse for X mins for any player to loot after X mins before disappearing. Another good option would be to allow a group/raid leader the ability to ignore the automated system for items above a certain rarity for the times that people are helping someone else get a specific item.
My $.02
Add: I'm an advocate for the automated system as someone that has had to spend way too much time /following another player because I was too busy tracking everyone else's loot drastically taking away from the enjoyment of experiencing the game itself. i.e. whole group is fighting the next encounter and I'm sifting through notes and DKP and getting/replying to whispers while others are arguing/debating in one chat channel while speaking in officer chat and having to read the other channels and trying to be fair to everyone... makes it more of a job than a game.
Hokanu said:I might be way off other opinions here, but my feeling is the more a system is automated the less connected we are with what is and isnt coming into our inventory. Who's won what, who could use what and "hang on poor old derek hasnt had a decent win in hours, give the poor bloke that sword". When i'm in a group and were making progress and getting chummy i'd much rather through conversation be able to assist the loot to get to the best person. That might be because of their class, or maybe it's just because the poor dude has terrrible gear. Its not the automation of the random loot roll i dont like the idea of its the fact that people dont even know what they are winning and if we keep fighting and fighting and fighting, there is never a great chance to review what you have automatically won and to see if there is a much better home for that item.
I KNOW a lot of people say, hey if u dont win too bad, i'm selling it anyway (and thats fine for them to do that) i'd just like to see a system that gives that fair random rolling, but also a system that does require some concious thought at the time of the loot as to whether (based on lots of factors) the loot really going to the right place, once all parties agree there is a better home for it.
Yes this. If you automate looting to any greater extent than a NBG button where you are at least Looking at the items, you lose out on this participation. However I also agree with Darch's options for each player to be able to say auto-pass on all XYZ items.
Being that Kilsin said "I just want it to be interactive and well designed, which it is", I would speculate that it is at the very least Not fully automated, you have to click things more often than just the Setup for it to be interactive. I would also imagine that it is simpler than most suggestions happening in the thread based on prior systems being relatively close to MMORPG roots.
My guess is that it is more of a traditional "select your group loot type" deal, but perhaps that would fall in to the "headache" portion of what he was talking about. There is room for automation in an interactive system as has been pointed out, perhaps items are flagged by useable classes first before going to the entire group to roll on.
I seriously doubt that they will automate away looting it's just against the spirit of the design. Look they've been playing with no loot system on streams (other than perhaps kill ownership mechanics) this entire time. This is such a foundation of a classic feel MMO I can't imagine they will do anything but try their best to keep players involved in looting. The speed run don't care what I loot schema does not fit at all with the game.
Well regardless of how things are done..you either add character or erode character away from the game. In terms of WoW auto loot system it erodes. Whether good or bad, or peoples vision of some lala utopian mmo where everyone gets along, people will complain no matter what. Complaining about a need/greed or master looter type system is stupid if you give the option to the group/raid and let them handle it. Stop trying to force some garbage system onto others. I played WoW for a long time and when they did that automated loot **** people were pissed more or less. You get use to it...but it takes character away from the game. Same with many other aspects of what Pantheon aims to be. The more choice and freedom you take away from the community, regardless of good or bad, the less of a community you will have. That simple.
Darch said:(i.e. character with highest overall item level would likely be best suited for an item
I think I’m not understanding what you meaning by character's item level. Are you saying, "The character that is currently wearing an item that has the closest stats to the item that dropped"?
Iksar said:
Want/Pass.
Don't try to automate determining who "needs" anything. 6 people equally worked on killing X, 6 people can decide among themselves if they want whatever dropped or not.
I don't have a problem with there being a want/pass option for those who want it and I’m not even saying I would never use it myself, but I’d also want to make sure that there are also other options available to us. I think the most important thing for me would be to have some way to not only graphically make it known what looting mechanic the group/raid has contractually agreed upon, but that there be code in place that ensures players are bound by the contract.
Nekentros said:
Iksar said:Want/Pass.
Don't try to automate determining who "needs" anything. 6 people equally worked on killing X, 6 people can decide among themselves if they want whatever dropped or not.
I don't have a problem with there being a want/pass option for those who want it and I’m not even saying I would never use it myself, but I’d also want to make sure that there are also other options available to us. I think the most important thing for me would be to have some way to not only graphically make it known what looting mechanic the group/raid has contractually agreed upon, but that there be code in place that ensures players are bound by the contract.
Oh I really like the Want/Pass verbiage and it sort of removes the contention of need/greed in a very simple way.
I still have the hunch based on (a gut feeling hehe) the way they have implented other systems that there will be the standard modern options, including Free For All. So like FFA, Round Robin, Need before greed, Want/pass, Master looter.
However thinking back to Kilsin's quick quip about it, the not being a headache part and making it sound like an easy transition in to a group makes me wonder if there will be that many options available. The way he said to basically just pop in to a group and not worry about loot rules seems contrary to the idea of joining a group and right away checking the group settings for loot rules or asking ahead of time. That seems far more cumbersome than my projection on his statement haha.
Of course as Nekentros just said there could be an obvious "You have joined a group with XYZ LOOT RULES ENABLED" that negates that.
There should be a system in place where a minigame pops every time loot drops, and everyone in the group will have to partake in the minigame. Make it ridiculously overcomplicated, like rock-paper-scissors, but with 6 different options. Make it best two out of three (ties don't count). That would be epic. 30 seconds to kill the mob, and 3 minutes to figure out who gets the rat tail that just dropped.
randomrob82 said:There should be a system in place where a minigame pops every time loot drops, and everyone in the group will have to partake in the minigame. Make it ridiculously overcomplicated, like rock-paper-scissors, but with 6 different options. Make it best two out of three (ties don't count). That would be epic. 30 seconds to kill the mob, and 3 minutes to figure out who gets the rat tail that just dropped.
As funny as that idea was meant to be, I might actually enjoy something like that every now and again. lol