There are many posts on these forums referencing Ninja looting as a thing. Many talks about community policing. Based on streams and the overall tone of conversation in streams regarding ninja looting I wasn't really sure what to think, although I had mostly assumed there would be a modern loot system in place. I've read through the FAQ again and am not seeing anything that addresses loot inside of a group/raid, only about kill stealing which is easy to conflate with other loot issues.
Clearly the latest builds we have seen do not have any group loot functionality turned on but that doesn't mean much.
This VIP roundtable answer from Kilsin has given me the impression that perhaps we will have group loot settings (round robin, NBG, FFA, Master etc) that we have seen in modern games and would probably have expected anyways.
There was also a mention during a recent stream by Joppa I think, about guilds having an in game DKP system possibly. I think that was the same stream they mentioned infamy? Anyone have a time stamp on that?
Anyway paraphrasing Kilsin with crazy emphasis from me, did he just confirm RR/NBG/FFA/Master loot?
Here is the youtube at 20 mins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH8-P01L4o0&feature=youtu.be
"I also want to be able to hook up flawlessly in to a group and have it designed well. So group play, ROLLING FOR LOOT and stuff like that JUST WORKS, and it's easy I don't want it to be a headache or have to think about it, you know I just want it to be interactive and well designed, WHICH IT IS, I can say from experience. "
That sounds a lot like confirmation of a group loot system we haven't seen yet. Yea?
I suppose there could be a debate over if it's more fun to manually /ran 100 but I feel like that is draconian at this point and it should be built in to the group/raid.
Personally I wish they would just move away from manual loot distribution in favor of an automated system. I think it could be done in a way to where the rate of loot distribution/odds per player remained equivalent to how it is done manually. This would alleviate many of the issues we see when it comes to loot and because the odds would remain the same the excitement would still be there.
I think it's a reasonable expectation that when Pantheon launches, it will allow group leaders to select one of several methods of loot distribution for their group. When players join the group, they'll be notified of what method is in use, and if that method is changed while the group is active they'll also be notified. The development team would have to be fools not to do something like this especially when it should be relatively simple to set up.
So, I don't think there's any reason for us to worry in that regard.
As for guilds, I think it's still an open question of what would be worthwhile to include in-game, vs. what guilds can manage on their own via discord or other tools. While a DKP-style system works for some, it would have to be generic enough that guild leaders could leverage it in different ways. That's the challenge there.
I think the problem with giving a choice of automatic loot systems is the average person doesn't appreciate the nuances and implications and which is actually fair.
Most people think a Need/Greed system is fairest, but the problem is, when can you press Need? When you are the class that can use the item? When you have an alt that can? When you've not looted it before? When it's your 'turn'? What if group composition changes? Etc etc.
People will say this is an opportunity for socialising. Sure. If you call tending to bicker and argue socialising. It's also an opportunity for VR to do what they know is right from 20 years of experience and not just leave it up to players like it always has been and has always lead to issues.
The only 'fair' loot system over time is random. Every time. Mathematics and the universe take care of the fairness perfectly. The longer you are involved in trying for something, the more chance you have of getting it. Done. Luck isn't something players should organise or try and control.
And the best way to do that is just plop the items into people's inventory, probably with a notification of what happened. If players then want to trade the item to another player or even give it up for free, that's up to them, but the game should do what is 'fairest' and impartial - because players don't know or will have differing opinions - and let the socialising take over after the game has handled the fairness.
(There should perhaps be a "Loot" option that you can opt out of for those occassions you just aren't interested in your bags being filled with whatever it is you really don't want).
I was going to go into why random loot is the only fair way, but that's a big conversation that's been had before.
For the OP: Devs have stated multiple times with more assurance each time that Pantheon will include loot systems. I just hope if they have mutliple that automatic and random is the default so they at least encourage fairness...
Otherwise have fun getting a tank to go to a camp where there isn't any tank gear dropping and it's Need/Greed rules... As one very small example.
Just for clarification, when I say automated, I mean completely automated. No need/greed buttons, no nothing. Each person just clicks on the corpse and if the automated system decides it’s time for you to get something it would be there, otherwise the corpse will be empty for you. You would not even be able to see the item(s) on the corpse that the system may or may not decide to give other players. You can only see your own item(s) if any drop.
I really dont understand why people dont like Master Looting, Need/Greed. They really should be in the game, otherwise your going to unfairly punish players since they would effectively be hopeless in stopping ninja looting.
With the fully automated system I just elaborated on, ninja looting would not even be a thing.
TheGoose said:I really dont understand why people dont like Master Looting, Need/Greed. They really should be in the game, otherwise your going to unfairly punish players since they would effectively be hopeless in stopping ninja looting.
Master Looting = abuse by leader
Need/Greed = interpretation of 'need' causing arguments like any other loot system
Not having *those* particular systems doesn't mean there is *no* system.
Automating a random roll and automatic looting would be one fair way.
To not see what was looted at all would kinda remove the excitement though.
If there wasn't a loot system message like "Kilsin was awarded a Dagger of Betrayal! Well done Kilsin!" the group would just be asking each other what dropped every time.
Nekentros said:Just for clarification, when I say automated, I mean completely automated. No need/greed buttons, no nothing. Each person just clicks on the corpse and if the automated system decides it’s time for you to get something it would be there, otherwise the corpse will be empty for you. You would not even be able to see the item(s) on the corpse that the system may or may not decide to give other players. You can only see your own item(s) if any drop.
That is literally the personal loot system that exists in current WoW, and, surprise surprise, people hate it.
It's like people here either forgot, or never understood in the first place, that the reason Panthon exists is to bring back the social aspect to MMOs. Loot discussion and distribution is as much a part of that social aspect of the game as any other. If you remove that, it runs counter to the principles that the game is being built on.
eunichron said:Nekentros said:Just for clarification, when I say automated, I mean completely automated. No need/greed buttons, no nothing. Each person just clicks on the corpse and if the automated system decides it’s time for you to get something it would be there, otherwise the corpse will be empty for you. You would not even be able to see the item(s) on the corpse that the system may or may not decide to give other players. You can only see your own item(s) if any drop.
That is literally the personal loot system that exists in current WoW, and, surprise surprise, people hate it.
It's like people here either forgot, or never understood in the first place, that the reason Panthon exists is to bring back the social aspect to MMOs. Loot discussion and distribution is as much a part of that social aspect of the game as any other. If you remove that, it runs counter to the principles that the game is being built on.
It's just an automated random roll avoiding arguments and false ideas of 'fairness'.
Personal loot as implemented in others games would see everyone getting something appropriate to them, which is, yes, undesirable. No shared experience, no monster-specific loot and loot proliferation.
I don't agree with the idea of not seeing what others are awarded - it would make it difficult to get excited and be happy for others (and have any idea of drop rates) - but the concept of 'the game does the loot rolls' is fine.
Perhaps it should just be another option. Hopefully the default though if we want fairness and to avoid arguments.
disposalist said:It's just an automated random roll avoiding arguments and false ideas of 'fairness'.
Doesn't matter, and I know I take a hardline stance on this, but anything that takes away player agency, this way in the form of automation, has the same effect of eroding those social cues that build community, especially if it is done in the interest "fairness".
Well to be fair, I've never played WoW, but I suppose it’s not surprising that there are some who don’t care for it. I think you are going to find that in just about anything. At the same time though, I also don't think bringing back the social aspect of MMO's needs to be an all or nothing endeavor. I think there is room for nuance in the number and manner in which social aspects are implemented.
disposalist said:It's just an automated random roll
I should have been more specific in my description, because what I was suggesting would not have been a blind random roll system. I’m not sure exactly how the automated personal loot system works in WoW, but from a quick web search it does sound pretty analogous. Also when I say that you won't see what another person's drops are, I just meant in the loot window, I didn't mean in the chat window. You would still see the, "so and so looted a bla bla bla", message. I should have been more specific on that.
eunichron said:... That is literally the personal loot system that exists in current WoW, and, surprise surprise, people hate it.
eunichron said:disposalist said:It's just an automated random roll avoiding arguments and false ideas of 'fairness'.
Doesn't matter, and I know I take a hardline stance on this, but anything that takes away player agency, this way in the form of automation, has the same effect of eroding those social cues that build community, especially if it is done in the interest "fairness".
"Anything that takes away player agency"? That is a hard line, indeed.
So, perhaps looting systems that remove the potential for, say, ninja looting, are bad? We should allow the potential for ninja looting, because that is 'player agency'?
Some player agency is not anything that benefits the community. There are limits to all mechanics. It's not a 'damage' to player agency that rogues can pick pockets, but only of NPCs (for example). Or maybe it is, but it's definitely worth it.
Of course we must be careful not to *needlessly* damage player agency and social interaction for *any* reason (though fairness is one of the better things to carefully consider).
When has bickering over loot and loot rules ever been a positive thing, though? Mitigating anarchy isn't an attempt to quash social interaction and freedom.
vjek said:eunichron said:... That is literally the personal loot system that exists in current WoW, and, surprise surprise, people hate it.
What people hate it? I've don't think I've heard anyone say "I hate this personal loot" in any game that has it.
The economic issues with personal loot are a solved problem. What are the other downsides, from your perspective, eunichron?
The (social?) lack of bickering over limited resources, when that's objectively not the best place to limit it? I wouldn't miss that, myself. :)
To be honest I've never heard of anyone 'hating' personal loot, either, but a lot of folks accept it detracts from social interaction. At least the way it has been done in other RPGs.
I was just playing Diablo 3 with my dad after having played Divinity 2 with him. He was confused and frustrated that we didn't see the same gear drop and couldn't trade (most of) it. It did indeed feel odd and overly restrictive. I know there are good technical reasons for it in Diablo, but it didn't feel good and I wouldn't if they couldn't have done it better.
There's no reason though, as I said, why it can't be done 'right'. A lot of what VR are doing with Pantheon is not EQ and is not WoW, but is inspired by EQ, WoW and others, but done 'right'.
disposalist said:When has bickering over loot and loot rules ever been a positive thing, though? Mitigating anarchy isn't an attempt to quash social interaction and freedom.
It's funny you mention freedom and anarchy, as I am now reading a self-critique of the political ecology movement, wherein "freedom" is considered to be the condition of individuals being and becoming themselves, and real - strong - communities are built of the free association of individuals accepting their duty to be free.
So, who says building community has to always center on 'positive' means? Scammers, ninja looters, and exploiters have as much to do with building community, for without them we have nothing to measure against - no reason to form community.
If Pantheon is to be an MMO in which reputation matters, then designing systems around solely positive means ("mitigating anarchy", as you put it), removing player agency that allows them to make harmful choices, is precluding community.
eunichron said:disposalist said:When has bickering over loot and loot rules ever been a positive thing, though? Mitigating anarchy isn't an attempt to quash social interaction and freedom.
It's funny you mention freedom and anarchy, as I am now reading a self-critique of the political ecology movement, wherein "freedom" is considered to be the condition of individuals being and becoming themselves, and real - strong - communities are built of the free association of individuals accepting their duty to be free.
So, who says building community has to always center on 'positive' means? Scammers, ninja looters, and exploiters have as much to do with building community, for without them we have nothing to measure against - no reason to form community.
If Pantheon is to be an MMO in which reputation matters, then designing systems around solely positive means ("mitigating anarchy", as you put it), removing player agency that allows them to make harmful choices, is precluding community.
Lol. Attempting to mitigate behaviours destructive to a community is not 'precluding' community.
When individuals 'become themselves' and they turn out to be serial killers or just plain a-holes, it's not a feature of a 'strong' community to accept their freedom to kill people or treat people badly.
People have some weird ideas about freedom these days.
But this is not the place for some kind of political discussion, really. Also I don't really want to have one! Too heavy, dude.
I don't think any system that promotes objectively negative social interaction is a great idea, for Pantheon.
" Scammers, ninja looters, and exploiters have as much to do with building community, for without them we have nothing to measure against - no reason to form community. "
Nope, gonna have to disagree with your opinion on that point. I have plenty of reasons to form a community without scammers, ninja looters and exploiters. They are neither required nor desired to have a social game.
vjek said:I don't think any system that promotes objectively negative social interaction is a great idea, for Pantheon.
" Scammers, ninja looters, and exploiters have as much to do with building community, for without them we have nothing to measure against - no reason to form community. "
Nope, gonna have to disagree with your opinion on that point. I have plenty of reasons to form a community without scammers, ninja looters and exploiters. They are neither required nor desired to have a social game.
And yet, the failure of every modern MMO that purports to do exactly that, eliminate negative behaviors in the name of building stronger community, is precisely why most of us are here on these forums.
For the record, I did not say that a system has to promote objectively negative behavior to build community. I said strong community is built in reaction to that negative behavior.
I dont really remember there ever being bickering over loot in EQ1. You need something and someone else needed something, you rolled and the winner got it. I suppose it was a different time though. People were less inclined to be ass hats because they werent raised on the insta-gratification circuit thats been spinning the world for the last decade or so.
arazons said:I dont really remember there ever being bickering over loot in EQ1. You need something and someone else needed something, you rolled and the winner got it. I suppose it was a different time though. People were less inclined to be ass hats because they werent raised on the insta-gratification circuit thats been spinning the world for the last decade or so.
Want/Pass is the ultimate/most fair baseline system for a group.
These days more people are being outspoken about people rolling need on items that are not for their class. But to the point, if there was a need selection box then greed selection box to check once a loot window pops up that would be cool. Need would roll first and winner would get item auto inventoried to them and then greed rolls would trigger off.
I would hate to have the game make the decision for me, but if it must be done perhaps the deus ex machina can be coded with a pop-up that tells you "this would be an upgrade for you!" even though I might disagree. I want spell damage! not AC and HP's I dont care how much I've been dieing.