I was reminded today of how having time investment requirements in MMOs is often a double-edged sword. We all want the time that we spend in these worlds to result in some form of meaningful progression for our characters. However, when the time required to achieve (or maintain) that progression becomes too great, players can give up or feel pushed to do things in an unhealthy or unsustainable way. Two examples:
1) Many games use a PvP ranking system where your rank is determined, essentially, by the amount of time you spend PvPing. In almost every game, past a certain point, you have to earn a certain number of points every week to maintain your rank. The goal of this is to generally try to make the top ranks meaningful and any perks associated with those ranks feel special and earned. But an unintended result also is that people who PvP casually are shut out of progression within the rank system.
2) EverQuest featured a low experience rate gain per kill and high totals needed to advance in level. Many players agreed that this was a good thing compared to the fast leveling in subsequent games because it encouraged us to spread out in the world, socialize, and appreciate the journey more. However, this same time requirement also led to the rise of power-leveling tactics and extremely long gaming sessions because players felt compelled to try to level up faster - whether to catch up with their friends or to be able to see a piece of content or even just because they were hooked on progression in general.
To be very clear, I'm posting this discussion because I'd like to see a discussion - not because I am advocating for anything in particular here. I do, however, think that there's a balancing point when it comes to time requirements for progression. I would love to hear people's thoughts on how things can be set up in Pantheon so that the time we spend is meaningful, but also so that everyone can still participate without resorting to playing outside the spirit of the game.
Two things come to my mind:
1) Meaningful and enjoyful progression. To build on what Counterfleche said, if progression is tedious and boring then it becomes something you want to skip. This becomes even more true when leveling is just a gate you have to get through as quick as possible, in a mad dash to get to end-game content and get the best loot. If you create a system that takes a long time to level, but every level is fun and enjoyable, gives you rewards that will last you for a relatively long while, and highlights the "fun" of playing the game, then I am not incentivised to grind 8+ hours a day to try and skip content.
2) Diminishing returns in gear progression. That is to say, a large portion of okay-good gear can be obtained with a casual amount of gameplay in a reasonable amount of time and be good enough to stay relevant in most groups and raids. Then, as you start to put in more time, you can obtain near BiS items. The more hours you put in, the better your character gets, however with dimishing returns your gear never gets so good that you become a god in comparison to the casual. Stronger? Of course. Cooler looking? Sure, why not. But make the casual completely obsolete? No. This allows people to play at their own pace and still have a reasonable expectation of being able to experience end-game content. As time goes on and even the casuals start matching the hardcores in gear, then you can release new content for more progression (whether horizontal or vertical, that is a different issue).
1)
Yeah, I never understood these systems. A player who plays 20 hours a week AMAZINGLY well didn't stand a chance in the ranking system against someone who played 60 hours a week with maybe slightly above average skill. There have got to be better ranking systems out there that could be used. This is one of the reasons why I stopped devoting so much time to pvp in wow and why I'm so excited to get back to a real PvE game. I'd rather just not have ranking systems at all.
2)
This is a tougher one for me. As I think back to EQ I had a blast, but really I spent most of my exp grinding time in the same zones doing the same things. The thing that made it fun was the people that I was grouped with, not really the content itself. I guess if we want to improve on that model all we really need to do is up the content. If there are several places for a level 15 player to go for experience then maybe we can have the best of both worlds. Fun groups and good content. If this IS the case I don't see myself trying to outlevel conent at all...I won't feel rushed to get past it because it won't feel boring or repetetive.
As far as keeping up with friends goes I don't think there is anything that can stop that issue. Everyone plays at their own pace and I already know I'm not going to be able to keep up with everyone. If I ever find myself logging in just to hurry up and level so I can keep up that will be a red flag that it's actually time to slow down and possibly find other people to group with that are closer to my pace.
I also understand that extremely long gaming sessions is super fun for a lot of people. People that don't have other responsibilities maybe should get to take advantage of that. I certainly had my days where I had a chance to play for 12, 20, even 40 hours straight before, and they are good memories but that won't be happening again anytime soon. At the same time, I wouldn't want to deny others that experience.
Then, as you start to put in more time, you can obtain near BiS items. The more hours you put in, the better your character gets, however with dimishing returns your gear never gets so good that you become a god in comparison to the casual. Stronger? Of course. Cooler looking? Sure, why not. But make the casual completely obsolete?
I agree with this as well but would like to clarify that for me the "more hours" means more play time overall, not more play time per session. I'm assuming that's what you meant too, but thought I'd add that I agree with that completely! I have no problem that players that play 5x more than me get to have better gear, and they should be stronger, but not so much that the more casual players are "on their own."
I wrote this today for something else but it seems fitting to go here.
To keep the player's focus to invest time in the virtual world is probably the most important aspect of mmorpgs. World building that inspires is a major incentive to stay in a virtual world. Another is community, this creates a sense of shared space as long it creates shared interdependence. For communities to thrive users must be equal to one another - which isn't true for levels, power or wealth but is true in the ability to assist each other. Communities thrive when lower ranking players have resources for higher ranking players as well as how high ranking players can assist low ranking players to defeat monsters and solve problems. When placing rules upon the user base aim to use these rules to protect their freedom from unnecessary external restrictions - or else you’ll reduce the immersion they have within the virtual space. Immersion and a sense of living in the virtual world is best done through progression systems. Today in 2020 progression is too often used to extend replayability. Instead immersive progression is best done with activities that are self-relevant - that is the skill rewarded are the same as the actions used to gain the skill. Positive motivations are the primary pillar of healthy games and healthy communities. Jealous and envious players are disruptive and should be shunned from the game and dishonoured and so should features that promote envy be limited and curtailed. Loot must first be rolled for by those with the correct class and race. Character growth and rags to riches progression must feel personal and special between the player and player character to build ownership of the progress made into a character - otherwise players will lose interest. Progression's brother persistence is the key to unlock the hook that keeps players interested. To have players stick around the more fun persistence can be the longer players will stay.
Doford said:Instead immersive progression is best done with activities that are self-relevant - that is the skill rewarded are the same as the actions used to gain the skill.
Can you give an example of this in a video game? I'm having a hard time thinking of what this means. I think I like it, just not exactly sure.
I think about non video games. What keeps people coming back to games like chess, terra mystica, scrabble, etc. Are those examples of "the skill rewarded" being "the same as the actions used to gain the skill?" Skill is required to get better and the better you get the more skill you have?
Thanks!
In MMORPGs over the years: -
I have never felt pressure to progress fast.
I have often felt pressure to progress slower (to stay level with friends).
I have often felt I progress too fast without trying, out-leveling level-appropriate content before I've thoroughly experienced it (even in EQ). This is ok though, since I like playing alts and too much content is better than too little. I'll catch it all eventually.
I have sometimes felt progress is too fast without trying re. getting given new skills that replace existing ones when I've barely had a chance to master those existing ones.
I find progressing and mastering my character probably as enjoyable as the encounters.
I want plenty of time to enjoy it, yes. I will accept quite a lot of 'fallout' if slow leveling really causes any.
As far as the PvP point goes: PvP in MMORPGs has always felt weird to me. I'm not at all surprised that competitive ranking systems often don't work if you only want some casual fun. The main reason I dislike PvP in MMORPGs is that 'casual fun' seems to be the opposite of what it is for anyway. Or at least that's not what a lot of players seem to be after with PvP.
As for pressure to progress in EQ: Yeah, it caused some less-than-ideal pressure for some. But the power-leveling, long sessions and other negative metas that evolved I don't believe are a direct consequence of just slow leveling and, even if they were, they can be solved by methods independant to progression speed.
I'm not quite sure what you want us to discuss @Nephele? Or maybe why? I want slow progress. I find other people's rate of progress immaterial. I don't care if others never level up, just role-play or craft. Trade and amass a fortune. I don't care if other people race to max, as long as they don't adversly effect others while doing it. I don't care if other people don't explore much and just grind away their levels.
Should we think of ways to help others *want* to progress slowly and take part in horizontal progression? It's quite an individual thing and I'm not sure why we would want to if we could?
I suppose all VR can do is make lots of horizontal progression routes available and hope people just ify the development time by doing it.
Fighting (grouping, raiding, soloing), character developing, questing, crafting, trading, exploring, building faction, organising a guild, role-playing, socialising, etc. All you can do is make them available and decent and it's up to players to do which they prefer, some, one or all. If they only enjoy getting world firsts and rush to max level *shrug* that's what they will do.
disposalist said:I have often felt I progress too fast without trying, out-leveling level-appropriate content before I've thoroughly experienced it
This very much so with newer games and back to what Ranarius said about multiple zones for the same levels, I often do find that other lvl 15 zone and it's too late greyed out because progression is too fast you've already been forced in to the next tier before seeing much of the content. Another part of this is that because it's fast, people don't bother to look for alternatives because you only spend a couple hours there and never think about it again. Why look for a new content experience when you're only going to be in that lvl tier for 2 hours?
I think what made my time investment feel worthwhile was knowing that those items / gains were something that lasts. It felt good to get an upgrade that as far as you knew was going to last for weeks or months of play. With the newer paradigm of constant upgrades, constant levels, constant gratification, it utterly changes that. It goes from "I worked for this and it is special" to "I won that level of the app, tap faster for more casino noises!". Two equally sort of gratifying experiences on the endorphins maybe but very different in practice.
What I'm trying to get at is that leveling curve is paramount to this discussion. If levels take longer, gear stays relevant longer, items have more meaning, therfore time spent aquiring them has more meaning. Everyone here knows that feeling of "Why even upgrade anything until I hit say level 30? Rather save the coin. Death doesn't matter. Gear is a waste until I Have to get it to progress". That of course is difficulty as well as leveling curve but still.
When a game has you go from 1 to max level in a day whatever, or even say a month or 2 for someone casual taking their time, it trivializes the time invested for everything up until max level.
If the dominate feeling is that everything I am working for now will be replaced in X days, the time investment feels like that grind to just get through the "wasted" time.
Anyway make my time invested matter? Make those hours invested (gear) Last longer than the time I put in.
Nephele said:I was reminded today of how having time investment requirements in MMOs is often a double-edged sword. We all want the time that we spend in these worlds to result in some form of meaningful progression for our characters. However, when the time required to achieve (or maintain) that progression becomes too great, players can give up or feel pushed to do things in an unhealthy or unsustainable way. Two examples:
disposalist said:In MMORPGs over the years: -
I have never felt pressure to progress fast.
I have often felt pressure to progress slower (to stay level with friends).
I have often felt I progress too fast without trying, out-leveling level-appropriate content before I've thoroughly experienced it (even in EQ). This is ok though, since I like playing alts and too much content is better than too little. I'll catch it all eventually.
I have sometimes felt progress is too fast without trying re. getting given new skills that replace existing ones when I've barely had a chance to master those existing ones.
I find progressing and mastering my character probably as enjoyable as the encounters.
I want plenty of time to enjoy it, yes. I will accept quite a lot of 'fallout' if slow leveling really causes any.
Yea this what desposalist said. My first thought reading the OP was his comment "We all want the time that we spend in these worlds to result in some form of meaningful progression for our characters" That goes in line with this "progression in 2 hours" thing that always get's talked about... NO, I don't want or need progression not in two hour's, not in a night... not in a session. I'm not real thrilled with LOOSING anything but that's about where it stop's.
I consider progression, Making a friend, Helping a friend, Chatting with friends, Traveling to the next location. Even in EQ right now, playing on the Arudune server I hit one or two camps in Unrest then on to 1 camp in Perma for a drop, now I'm In LG.. leveled right past the rest of Unres, the rest of Perma, UG, Mistmore and a half a dozen other zones...
More often than not I find there simply isn't enough content to fill the time. I have ended up taking a break from, and eventually quiting, a few games that can't provide enough incentive to log on in the long run.
The way it usually ends up is:
I focus entirely on my main character. I earn every possible upgrade/item that I want. I then start an alt. Once that alt character has every possible significant upgrade I end up taking a break until the next expansion.
Once that expansion comes out I come back to the game and I earn every possible upgrade from that expansion on both my main and my alt. By that time the next expansion is usually a long way off and I end up quiting because there is no incentive to improve my character further.
This scenario has happened a few times. It has made me love long grinds and timesinks. I love feeling like there is something significant for my character to earn. I want to have a reason to log on and play. I hate wanting to log in but having nothing I can gain to significantly improve my character so there is no reason to.
There has to be that carrot to incentivize players to continue to play. There has to be significant upgrades to their characters power that can still be attained to keep players around.
philo said:There has to be that carrot to incentivize players to continue to play. There has to be significant upgrades to their characters power that can still be attained to keep players around.
This. And here is the thing. Those upgrades have to be spaced out. You have to know that when you put the time and effort in to that FBSS it is going to last you for a long time. That is a more extreme example but the same goes for Random Rare Sword of Newbie. I want to get RRSN and be like YES omg I got it! Not "meh, I'll get a better sword in 3 levels / X trivial hours".
As a (now) casual player I am still okay with having to spend the time over multiple play sessions for that. There will always be those that can play 16hours a day. Trying to level the playing field by making it easier for casuals to keep up is exactly the Wrong approach that has brought us to where we are today in MMOs. I say make it a very long leveling process time wise, but have the content and items during that process available to make it fun because that is what I feel this game is about. If we base everything on the hardcore min/maxxers getting to raid gear before us, then we've lost.
Edit:
Spaced out through normal progression. Not spaced out by the next expansion.
GeneralReb said:philo said:There has to be that carrot to incentivize players to continue to play. There has to be significant upgrades to their characters power that can still be attained to keep players around.
This. And here is the thing. Those upgrades have to be spaced out. You have to know that when you put the time and effort in to that FBSS it is going to last you for a long time. That is a more extreme example but the same goes for Random Rare Sword of Newbie. I want to get RRSN and be like YES omg I got it! Not "meh, I'll get a better sword in 3 levels / X trivial hours".
As a (now) casual player I am still okay with having to spend the time over multiple play sessions for that. There will always be those that can play 16hours a day. Trying to level the playing field by making it easier for casuals to keep up is exactly the Wrong approach that has brought us to where we are today in MMOs. I say make it a very long leveling process time wise, but have the content and items during that process available to make it fun because that is what I feel this game is about. If we base everything on the hardcore min/maxxers getting to raid gear before us, then we've lost.
Edit:
Spaced out through normal progression. Not spaced out by the next expansion.
I think we have a slightly different perspective but a similar view point.
Since you used the FBSS as an example I'll use that. That was never the best haste item in the game so even if I had an FBSS I would still have plenty of incentive to log in and try to upgrade that item. (granted, running out of incentive isn't why I ended up leaving EQ...I ran out of incentive to play in games the last 10-15 years that were significantly easier and had less penalties...and I was far less efficient 20 years ago).
While any tiny amount of haste upgrade is a significant upgrade for a melee character, I think the key word here is "significant".
I'm concerned that the amount of vertical progression that VR is implementing may not be enough incentive to make me feel like my character is actually increasing in power. The power upgrade has to be noticable in order to keep players around. Farming resist gear only lasts for so long. It doesn't keep players around inevitably.
I would prefer longer time sinks with greater rewards so that your power increase is noticable.
Please don't give us tiny upgrades once every few days so that you barely notice it. Give us 1 substantial upgrade every month so you actually feel like you accomplished something and notice the power increase.
I think that ^ is what you meant by "spaced out"? We are definitely on the same page with that.
philo said:Please don't give us tiny upgrades once every few days so that you barely notice it. Give us 1 substantial upgrade every month so you actually feel like you accomplished something and notice the power increase.
This is a very good start.
I know many are afraid of an expansion making all your hard-earned gear absolute. WoW definitely showed how not to do it. But I do want to keep progressing in power. Preferable with no end in sight and many options along the way. Basically, just lots of content.
For me EQ did this very well. I was slow enough on progression that the end was never in site, but over time I was able to kill raid targets like Lodizal with a small group. My progression was amazing but it took years.
In short, my answer to the OP is lots and lots of content and never stop adding more content. That way you can have manful progression without running out of things to do.
@philo
Yea I think we are on the same page just my example was a bit vanilla EQ. I mean FBSS was what you were after unless you could get a raid belt as a casual, it was The haste belt and a long camp. But the point stands you could devote yourself to farming the FBSS and then your next target was another goal in the future, work, it wasn't nesc 2 days away, you focused on your BP next or sword or whatever.
Always another carrot to go after the entire journey. It Never even occured to me to race to max level in 1999, I was too busy trying to farm what I wanted Now instead of lvl 50. Once I approached 50 and raiding was in my sights I was basically carried in to it by Community to get my first raid drops :)
I share the concern of the +1 stat increases. However I do recall in vanilla EQ going over plans of how I would nudge my INT to 200 on my necro and thinking about sacrificing this ring for that item to get there etc. Not sure how to mitigate this without having stat bloat hmmmm
I have to go against Neph's #2 of this leading to power leveling and unhealthy gaming. Power leveling is basically an exploit that should not exist lol, and gaming longer than your life allows is a personal problem. That sounds more harsh than I mean it to.
Zorkon said:Nephele said:I was reminded today of how having time investment requirements in MMOs is often a double-edged sword. We all want the time that we spend in these worlds to result in some form of meaningful progression for our characters. However, when the time required to achieve (or maintain) that progression becomes too great, players can give up or feel pushed to do things in an unhealthy or unsustainable way. Two examples:
disposalist said:In MMORPGs over the years: -
I have never felt pressure to progress fast.
I have often felt pressure to progress slower (to stay level with friends).
I have often felt I progress too fast without trying, out-leveling level-appropriate content before I've thoroughly experienced it (even in EQ). This is ok though, since I like playing alts and too much content is better than too little. I'll catch it all eventually.
I have sometimes felt progress is too fast without trying re. getting given new skills that replace existing ones when I've barely had a chance to master those existing ones.
I find progressing and mastering my character probably as enjoyable as the encounters.
I want plenty of time to enjoy it, yes. I will accept quite a lot of 'fallout' if slow leveling really causes any.
Yea this what desposalist said. My first thought reading the OP was his comment "We all want the time that we spend in these worlds to result in some form of meaningful progression for our characters" That goes in line with this "progression in 2 hours" thing that always get's talked about... NO, I don't want or need progression not in two hour's, not in a night... not in a session. I'm not real thrilled with LOOSING anything but that's about where it stop's.
I consider progression, Making a friend, Helping a friend, Chatting with friends, Traveling to the next location. Even in EQ right now, playing on the Arudune server I hit one or two camps in Unrest then on to 1 camp in Perma for a drop, now I'm In LG.. leveled right past the rest of Unres, the rest of Perma, UG, Mistmore and a half a dozen other zones...
I agree, but I have to say, I don't think VR ever indicated that the 2 hour session concept intended to deliver any guarantee of 'progression' as such, just that you would be able to achieve something meaningful and what you did wouldn't be pointless if you didn't play more than two hours.
From the FAQ:
4.3 Will Pantheon require me to play for hours and hours or all night and all day to advance my character?
No. While the world of Terminus will consist of vast landscapes and epic dungeons, there is no reason to require players to play long, contiguous gaming sessions. Players will be able to play a couple of hours, logout, and return later to continue their journey. There will also be mechanics and features to both help people get together and group and also to make lasting friendships. To further facilitate this there will also be ways for players to keep their group together even if some members of the group can play longer than others or at different times.
To me that is talking about caravans and mentoring, which, unfortunately, might not be in at release, and the match-maker, which we haven't heard about in a while, but there has been further talk of 'campfires' and 'safe spots' in big dungeons where people can log out to return later.
I totally agree that there should be no guarantees of 'progress' in two hours (and I don't think there has been). The pace of the game should be slow slow slow whether or not you can bite off chunks in two hours. Those chunks should be tiny bites.
Nephele said:2) EverQuest featured a low experience rate gain per kill and high totals needed to advance in level. Many players agreed that this was a good thing compared to the fast leveling in subsequent games because it encouraged us to spread out in the world, socialize, and appreciate the journey more. However, this same time requirement also led to the rise of power-leveling tactics and extremely long gaming sessions because players felt compelled to try to level up faster - whether to catch up with their friends or to be able to see a piece of content or even just because they were hooked on progression in general.
Speaking only for myself, what compelled me to play for multiple dozens of hours a week was because I enjoyed the game, not a need to always get to a higher level. As these games are my primary form of entertainment, I naturally spend a lot of time playing them.
To the topic of the thread, what made my time investment matter was how often, or how much, of the rewards brought you into a broader group of people. Think about all the groupings are out there in the game. When you first made it into a group on Orc Hill in Gfay, 'graduating' from the newbie area. When you finished your class armor class and joined the community of all the Shaman who had also earned theirs. I remember completing my Coldain Prayer Shawl and how proud I was of completing it because not that many people would go through that entire quest.
It is this sense of becoming a member of non-necessarily-exclusive communities were a sense of pride. Being proud of your accomplishments, however you decide to identify them, is, I think, a very powerful reward for your invested time more than just looting an item.
Vandraad said:Speaking only for myself, what compelled me to play for multiple dozens of hours a week was because I enjoyed the game, not a need to always get to a higher level. As these games are my primary form of entertainment, I naturally spend a lot of time playing them.
To the topic of the thread, what made my time investment matter was how often, or how much, of the rewards brought you into a broader group of people. Think about all the groupings are out there in the game. When you first made it into a group on Orc Hill in Gfay, 'graduating' from the newbie area. When you finished your class armor class and joined the community of all the Shaman who had also earned theirs. I remember completing my Coldain Prayer Shawl and how proud I was of completing it because not that many people would go through that entire quest.
It is this sense of becoming a member of non-necessarily-exclusive communities were a sense of pride. Being proud of your accomplishments, however you decide to identify them, is, I think, a very powerful reward for your invested time more than just looting an item.
Pretty much this. The game was just extremely enjoyable to play (and raiding/endgame wasn't yet quite an impetus in MMO gaming), the little things felt like real accomplishments and growth. Finally reaching a level to move up to the next camp in a dungeon was exciting, then to eventually find yourself in the apex camp for a zone.
Even things as simple as the hell levels which were something most people went through were milestones to have a simple pride in accomplishing and being able to share your own war stories about it.
Iksar said:Vandraad said:Speaking only for myself, what compelled me to play for multiple dozens of hours a week was because I enjoyed the game, not a need to always get to a higher level. As these games are my primary form of entertainment, I naturally spend a lot of time playing them.
To the topic of the thread, what made my time investment matter was how often, or how much, of the rewards brought you into a broader group of people. Think about all the groupings are out there in the game. When you first made it into a group on Orc Hill in Gfay, 'graduating' from the newbie area. When you finished your class armor class and joined the community of all the Shaman who had also earned theirs. I remember completing my Coldain Prayer Shawl and how proud I was of completing it because not that many people would go through that entire quest.
It is this sense of becoming a member of non-necessarily-exclusive communities were a sense of pride. Being proud of your accomplishments, however you decide to identify them, is, I think, a very powerful reward for your invested time more than just looting an item.
Pretty much this. The game was just extremely enjoyable to play (and raiding/endgame wasn't yet quite an impetus in MMO gaming), the little things felt like real accomplishments and growth. Finally reaching a level to move up to the next camp in a dungeon was exciting, then to eventually find yourself in the apex camp for a zone.
Even things as simple as the hell levels which were something most people went through were milestones to have a simple pride in accomplishing and being able to share your own war stories about it.
Maybe I'll be third to say this..gameplay quality...
I say this as a
1) ...self-proclaimed casual pvp'er. Let there be content in the sandbox and lots of players to group with, and the rest is history..
2. ...group follower...give me things to do with my people. If my people leave, I have been known to explore for hours every nook and cranny of a map, I've power-leveled solo, but I found that less enjoyable with a group especially in group-centric games. For example, I can power level Zelda games like nobody's business :D...I've power leveled through neverwinter mostly solo (combat is extremely fast and about hitting powerful combos)
I would add that large content level helps keep things flexible and it doesn't have to be something time-consuming...I've spent hours chasing collections in EQ2 which is something nearly incidental to the rest of the game. I think many people have gone fishing never (almost) to return. At least that's what it felt like at the time..If you can create that feeling, time isn't important
starblight said:For me EQ did this very well. I was slow enough on progression that the end was never in site, but over time I was able to kill raid targets like Lodizal with a small group. My progression was amazing but it took years.
In short, my answer to the OP is lots and lots of content and never stop adding more content. That way you can have manful progression without running out of things to do.
Playing P99 blue/green has helped me remember how good at this early EQ was. Epic weapons are an especially great example to me. Epic weapon quests will be available pretty soon here on green shortly after the release of Kunark. As most of you all know, the quests are long and tedious, especially early on in content progression while people work to level to 60 and everyone doesn't have end-game gear. It will sometimes take weeks, usually months (or possibly longer, depending on class and hours/day) of constant work to achieve your character's epic.
And what does all of that hard work get you? The (arguably) coolest looking and (generally speaking) most powerful weapon available to your class, for the remainder of the P99 lifecycle. Even if the damage ratio or stats become slightly overshadowed by a very hard-to-get weapon from some future raid in Sleeper's Tomb or something, almost everyone will keep their epics on them at least for the look and/or clickie... and it remains that way through the entire life of a blue/green server. Epics will never be "obsolete". The feeling of accomplishment you get from your epic, the pride you have while you wear it... it's hard to compare!
This becomes harder to do with a live game where you don't have a small dedicated group of players willing to play the same content for the better part of a decade, like you've had with P99 blue. I recognize that Pantheon will most likely not be able to carry the same content (nor should it have to) for that long. But let's do better than WoW, where I can labor to get the legendary Thunderfury, or lose 3 months of my life to get rank 14 weapons, only to have them replaced by common trash in the next expansion, before you even hit max level.
Imagine if when Velious hit, no one used their epics anymore? What a sad sight that would be. Kunark -> Velious is a great example of horizontal progression.
The simplest way is a combination of flattening the curve at higher levels (character and gear) and providing unique cosmetic/utility(ports/slow healing/lower level utility buffs) upgrades to dedicated players.
e.g.
Level 20 character is 5x as powerfull as Level 10
But Level 30 is only 4x as powerfull as 20
And Level 40 is only 3x as powerfull as 30
And Level 50 is only 2x as powerfull as 40
etc.
Power progression still needs to be enough to be felt, but not enough that gear is immediatly obsolete on levelling.