Ranarius said:I really don't like when a game design exists just because a few people out there make it no fun for someone else. If an item I'm looking for is being farmed by an appropriate level player then I should move on to somewhere else. If it's being farmed by a higher level player I should...move on to somewhere else. I'm fine with checking back later when that player is done. Tough to explain my point of view I guess, but I'd prefer to have no restriction (and I'm not even a farmer).
I keep going back to the social consequences bit. Let it play out, see what happens.
The thing is, it HAS been played out in many games. What happens - if nothing is done to avoid it - is that once a really nice drop becomes known as very good gear and very popular, is that someone will see it as their ticket to wealth and start farming it with a high level character. Once you get a few players with the same intention, checking back doesn't help. There is always someone there. Your chances of finding the spot empty and being able to get the drop yourself shrink to somewhere between tiny and zero.
Ranarius said: For me - if something I want badly is being farmed by someone who just wants to sell it then I'll just go earn the money and buy it.
A further problem with such a situation is inflation. Once you have a population of max level players, they become the preferred market to sell great lower level gear to, for use in twinking new alts. And because they are wealthy by then, the price of said gear quickly goes beyond the reach of players who are at the level for which the gear was intended. So "I'll just go earn the money and buy it" is a commendable intention. But if you are at a level where you can earn (just example) one gold per hour farming, you might find that the drop you want is being sold for 200 gold on the market. For a piece you could get in a few hours to a couple of days of camping the spot. Maybe you wouldn't be discouraged and give up, but many would. And do.
Mordecai said: Not sure about out leveling mobs therefore they shouldn’t drop anything. Looking at it from a point of view of if mats are dropped by grey mobs, and your trade skill isn’t high enough level you’d need to go back into older content to farm materials to raise those trade skill levels.
That's actually a good thing for the economy. Because it gives lower level players something they can sell to crafters. Thus shifting some of higher-level players wealth down to newer and poorer players. It also creates more connections between crafters and adventurers, always a good result in a 'socially focused' game.
Farming lower level areas for loot for twinking or revenge is a great way of demonstrating character growth. It can also be very enjoyable and rewarding experience. Limiting it so that grey mobs no longer drop loot diminishes the feel of the game by making it feel more artificial. Limiting my higher-level character on what he can do also diminishes his overall power and worth. I completely get why this idea is being suggested and I agree not fixing it will result in issues. I just do not think that solution would be better then the issue it is trying to resolve.
What if instead of no drops or limited over all drops on grey mobs your chances of another drop in a set amount of time diminishes. This is a little messy because I also do not like personalized loot so if your chances are lower then your groups chances are also lower while you are in the group. Though maybe this would not be an issue at all as we are talking much lower level mobs that would not require a group. This would still allow for farming low level areas but the diminishing return could make it worthless to keep the camp for too long.
One of the reasons I feel strongly about this is I do not look at my characters as separate. I look at them as a group or team. When one of them becomes more powerful they help the others progress as well. It is like account wide progression in other games but with less structure.
Mordecai said: I’m also a dude that works 60 hours a week and has 4 kiddos, lol I’m not gonna be on and playing a ton like I did in old EQ and WOW.
Ha...we're twins. My kids are 4, 7, 9, 11. Their mom is the reason I quit EQ :) ... yeah, she is better than a video game but I do still miss the days when I could play 10 hours a day haha.
Jothany said:A further problem with such a situation is inflation. Once you have a population of max level players, they become the preferred market to sell great lower level gear to, for use in twinking new alts. And because they are wealthy by then, the price of said gear quickly goes beyond the reach of players who are at the level for which the gear was intended. So "I'll just go earn the money and buy it" is a commendable intention. But if you are at a level where you can earn (just example) one gold per hour farming, you might find that the drop you want is being sold for 200 gold on the market. For a piece you could get in a few hours to a couple of days of camping the spot. Maybe you wouldn't be discouraged and give up, but many would. And do.
I think what you're saying about the impact is true but I do not see it as a problem. If an item is unatainable to me for whatever reason, then it's unatainable. I move on and experience some other part of the game...none of us are going to get it all. I've also found that no item is unatainable forever; I've enjoyed the challenge of problem solving and finding a way. I think people need to start moving away from the feeling of being entitled to whatever they want in the world. We have been conditioned by so many other games to think that we deserve it because we exist. I am glad we're finally getting a game that requires some work to accomplish something along with the possiblity of NOT accomplishing it.
Mordecai said: Sorry bro but the economy isn’t something I worry about at all in a game. Yea, I can see prices skyrocket on nice things, however you still have a chance to gather materials or the coveted item yourself. Even if someone is camping it a ton. Ok? So what? Unless they’re on meth or multiple people are playing on the account it’s not going to be 24/7 taken.
I'm not sure if you are responding to me or some other comments. It's helpful to say for sure, even if you don't bother to quote the person.
starblight said:One of the reasons I feel strongly about this is I do not look at my characters as separate. I look at them as a group or team. When one of them becomes more powerful they help the others progress as well. It is like account wide progression in other games but with less structure.
Your very own progeny system ;-) (I support this even though I probably wont have any alts haha)
I'm hoping the progeny rewards are substantial. If the rewards are powerful enough it will greatly diminish the amount of players who want to stick around at the max level.
The problem is that max level type of raid drops are usually pretty powerful and it becomes difficult to balance progeny rewards that can compete with that. I guess they could be smaller but more permanent rewards that arent simply replaced with the next expansion like high end raid gear is.
((I think people need to start moving away from the feeling of being entitled to whatever they want in the world. We have been conditioned by so many other games to think that we deserve it because we exist. I am glad we're finally getting a game that requires some work to accomplish something along with the possiblity of NOT accomplishing it. ))
While I agree with this - I don't think it invalidates Jothany's points at all.
Sure work to get something is desirable. Sure there should be a risk of never getting it. But on a pve server work and risk should be primarily related to the encounter designs and not primarily based on competition with other players.
Two points above are compelling. Firstly - anything especially good will draw much higher level players. At the risk of exaggerating it is *not* fun and is *not* a good introduction to Pantheon if a level 2 character cannot get a few copper pieces and a little experience because level 10s or 20s have an incentive to come in and aoe the pigs or wolves or orcs either for a small chance of getting an individually good item or just because they can get such volume of drops so quickly it is more coin per minute than fighting mobs of their own level.
Secondly some people will just be douches and come in to grief other players. If they are getting no value from the pigs they are *obviously* griefing, at least if asked to stop but they continue. This can legitimately get them suspended or banned. But if the pigs drop loot they may just be greedy which is not against the terms of service and customer service cannot touch them. I want them able to be banned or suspended if they are griefing.
dorotea said:
Sure work to get something is desirable. Sure there should be a risk of never getting it. But on a pve server work and risk should be primarily related to the encounter designs and not primarily based on competition with other players.
If you are referring to an open world game (which you are), then I completely disagree with this statement.
That statement is only true if you want an instanced game. It shouldn't only be about the encounter...and isn't...in an open world game.
Not everyone can have a camp or a drop or a resource when they want it. The player will have to interact with others in the world around them. There are so many positives to these limits that I can't/won't even try to list them all. Things like limiting inflation/mudflation, extending the length of content, encouraging player interaction and problem solving are just a few of the big ones.
I mean, limiting the extent to which players can farm any particular item(s) doesn't also mean players can do what they want when they want or otherwise have access to an encounter close to when they want. It limits the amount any one player or group of players can dominate said thing, but there will always be plenty of other groups after to take their place when the first is locked out.
You are right. It is a concern that VR gets to creative with systems. That seems to be the direction some things have been going.
Systems like the encounter limiters where the encounter scales based on the number of people or vanishes all together if some arbitrary number of players is reached. Or systems like lockout timers and trivial loot codes.
At some point you may as well just not try to make an open world game anymore. Go back to instancing and not try to get overly creative with these systems. Instancing is clean and works if that is the direction they want to go.
There is nothing wrong with a game not being an open world game, that's just not how this has been presented. Games went away from being open world for a number of reasons. To try to go back to being open world means those reasons will be an issue for some people.. Some people like it, some people don't. You can't please everyone all the time. We have seen what happens when games try...
That's the thing though. Games have been trying to evolve. That's how these systems like sharding and ghost mechanics and TLC and lockouts etc came to be.
That's why we are where we are in the genre. Some times if it ain't broke don't fix it. MMOs have been trying to fix it (evolve) for 15 years or more. It's those kind of fixes that you mention that have put us where we are now...left wanting something different.
philo said:dorotea said:Sure work to get something is desirable. Sure there should be a risk of never getting it. But on a pve server work and risk should be primarily related to the encounter designs and not primarily based on competition with other players.
If you are referring to an open world game (which you are), then I completely disagree with this statement.
That statement is only true if you want an instanced game. It shouldn't only be about the encounter...and isn't...in an open world game.
Not everyone can have a camp or a drop or a resource when they want it. The player will have to interact with others in the world around them. There are so many positives to these limits that I can't/won't even try to list them all. Things like limiting inflation/mudflation, extending the length of content, encouraging player interaction and problem solving are just a few of the big ones.
Cmon... how many times will this argument be had?... Not wanting to 'fight' other players to play the game does not equate to wanting instancing... It's a tired hyperbole/strawman thingy.
There are many ways (many suggested in this very thread) to mitigate 'when good competition goes bad' and none of them include instancing and none of them eradicate competition completely.
We all know there are bad aspects to contention. Some innovation in that area is a good idea.
You are exagerating when you say "Not wanting to 'fight' other players to play the game" dispo.
We will have to wait our turn of course. Luckily there is a whole world of options of things we can do.
I guess this discussion will be had until there is an understanding that there will be competition for resources in an open world game.
I've accepted the idea that there are pro's and con's to open world games. I don't think we get the best of both worlds. I haven't heard a solution to the "cons" that I like yet, but it doesn't mean there isn't one out there. So far my favorite solution is "work it out with the other players."
What if there’s enough content to play an open world without the grind? They could easily trivialize loot from “gray” mobs at a certain level...once content runs out there will be expansions I would assume. Note: 7 WoW, but 24 EQ expansions!
Id love to see unlinked non instanced epic content without instanced raids and have groups battle it out for the treasure chest after the fact..probably just my sadistic mind at work, but that sounds like fun done with some level setting.
Make my alt class content sufficiently different though and I won't care.
Ranarius said:I've accepted the idea that there are pro's and con's to open world games. I don't think we get the best of both worlds. I haven't heard a solution to the "cons" that I like yet, but it doesn't mean there isn't one out there. So far my favorite solution is "work it out with the other players."
Well said, one thing I do know I currently prefer the cons to an open world in comparison to the cons of instancing.
I quit WoW after the second expansion I think but friends kept trying to get me to comeback after a new expansion. I would ask how many new dungeons were added that were not max level? Now the answer was a long time ago so not 100% sure on it exactly but summary was basically none. WoW for all its money and developers never seemed to reinvest in the world equally. They only seemed to invest in end game and normally raiding. EQ is amazing to go back too. So many of the expansions added content for all levels.
In time I hope Pantheon will be like EQ. But I do not see how any game could realistically achieve that on release. Well unless the content is autogenerated. Not sure I would be for against that but seeing as Pantheon will not be autogenerating content seems mute for this conversion.
Counterfleche said: We need reasonable restrictions in games for the same reason we need referees in sports. Many people will take the easiest path to victory, even if it isn't fun and is harmful to the game/sport. By preventing this behavior, the game becomes more enjoyable for all.The main reason most games switched to instancing in the first place was to curb bad behavior. By putting in place restrictions to prevent bad competitive behavior, we can creating a toxic environment and also avoid the heavy-handedness of instancing.
This isn't a player behavior issue, it's a system issue. Any system that puts players in competition for scare resources and has an its only control and optional line system is asking for trouble. If Disneyland let everyone cut the line and ride at many times as they wanted, you would have the rough equivalent of a laissez-faire MMO. It not only doesn't work, it's basically designed to fail.
I see it completely differently. While I won't disagree with you that instancing leads to easier leveling, many people are not here just to reach the top as fast as possible. What you gain from instancing you lose in community and sense of accomplishment. The levels will come no matter what system you have but having a good community and feeling great about what you have is something you can't get back. People working hard and competing to get ahead results in a greater feeling of accomplishment than being handed levels through instance grinding.