Trasak said:As far as “exploiting” grinding full exp at a lower level to use towards higher levels is effectively a non issue. If exp to level and exp per kill grow exponentially killing 1000 level 30 mobs may only give as much exp for killing 100 40s and 10 50s. You are not really gaining much time but are likely decreasing the load on higher level zones. I call this a win win and not any form of loss.
Agreed. I don't see any problem with gaining XP 'as normal', but the simple fact would be that, relative to the XP you *could* be gaining at your *actual* level it would be far from efficient.
Mentoring still has a place and would not actually be hard to implement. You make a generic lvl 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, and 40 (higher if the cap increases) template character. Anyone in that class that has passed the level marker can unlock that mentor state. In town you go so some form of NPC and activate a desired mentor state. You are locked in that state until you return to the same NPC to unlock it.
You are given a new UI overlay with appropriate ability bars and maybe even masteries that you configure, and your character is equipped with a generic set of gear. For all purpose of scaling, including exp earned and challenges attempted you are that level for that time period. You can access your general inventory but not your equipped gear slots.
It's been discussed elsewhere, but, yeah I think that would work, though I really can't see it being *that* complex to scale your high level abilities down. They could err on the side of being underpowered rather than overpowered, but even if they get it wrong, it would be a darn sight less disruptive than twinking and powerleveling.
Didn't Brad, or Joppa state the plan was to have the system take a "snapshot" of each user at level change and the mentoring would be the user rolling back to what he actualy WAS at any previous level? To mentor down you would simply choose what level you want to roll back to, it would give you the gear you had at the time.
IF that was indeed what they said, then that code to store out the snapshot's would have to already be in at launch, or there would be a whole bunch of players with nothing to roll back too. How to implement that Roll back, is what would take the time and need to come after launce.
I've got to be honest. I don't see any actual benefit to shutting down XP gain. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with whether or not there should be an option. I just don't see a benefit. What I see is a "bunch of work for no gain" by shutting it off. I get the benefit to whomever you are "mentoring", it just doesn't seem particularly useful to me.
The basic answer is so that you can play with friends/family with significantly less play time without trivializing the content for those friends as would happen if you were significantly higher level than them.
It is also possible that the game world could interact with the effective challenge of a specific encounter. Somewhere between trivial loot code and quest loot assigned based on how many levels bellow the target level you are where the levels of everyone participating can be checked, including those out of group.
Giving up your exp entirely is obviously a personal sacrifice. Delaying leveling but not stopping gaining experience is an efficiency loss. Full Mentor mode allows you to level at full speed but drop back without sacrificing.
Nah. Sounds fine in theory, result will be diminishing the amount of alternate characters created and overall lower level grouping options. Other games have done this, while some find it helpful to stick with extremely casual family and friends, the overall health of the game is better served by forcing people to make more alternate characters and keep them at the level ranges desired. It's a simple thing, turning off xp is going to diminish the amount of alternate characters created. That's a net negative for the game. Just make sure the game and classes are fun and engaging, then folks won't mind rolling something new to play with their casual buddies. Pantheon has a lot of classes, a lot of starting areas, might as well design the game to maximize their exposure.
Mathir said:Nah. Sounds fine in theory, result will be diminishing the amount of alternate characters created and overall lower level grouping options. Other games have done this, while some find it helpful to stick with extremely casual family and friends, the overall health of the game is better served by forcing people to make more alternate characters and keep them at the level ranges desired. It's a simple thing, turning off xp is going to diminish the amount of alternate characters created. That's a net negative for the game. Just make sure the game and classes are fun and engaging, then folks won't mind rolling something new to play with their casual buddies. Pantheon has a lot of classes, a lot of starting areas, might as well design the game to maximize their exposure.
Do you have any evidence or examples to back that up? People will make alts to play different classes not to replay the same class with the exception of a situation similar to level 19 or 29 WoW battleground specific characters that you twink to the max then leave at max level for that bracket.
As long as the Pantheon has lots of content while you level to max like EQ did after a couple expansions or Vanguard did on launch alts will not be a problem. The ability to turn off, slow or hold up leveling will just keep me from being forced to play whatever end game pantheon has. If there is one thing EQ taught me is that the end game is not at all what I am interested in. It still amazes me I spent so long trying to race to the end only to find I raced by all the good content. While I can’t speak for everyone, I can say I at least will likely have lots of alts.
Not sure this will help or not but I think you have to consider that not everyone expects to get the same thing out of Pantheon. I have learned raiding is something I will unlikely want to be part of except on rare occasions. What I do want out of the game is to be able to play with friends in level appropriate content, preferably a dungeon crawl with a chance of good rewards and a high chance of death around every corner. I do not want to have to wait until max level to be able to find this rewarding play style and so if I can limit my progression to keep that challenge in a dungeon, I am having fun in I will. For non-raiders like me the end of the game can be depressingly low on content. If the end has very little for you what is the rush?
starblight said:Not sure this will help or not but I think you have to consider that not everyone expects to get the same thing out of Pantheon. I have learned raiding is something I will unlikely want to be part of except on rare occasions. What I do want out of the game is to be able to play with friends in level appropriate content, preferably a dungeon crawl with a chance of good rewards and a high chance of death around every corner. I do not want to have to wait until max level to be able to find this rewarding play style and so if I can limit my progression to keep that challenge in a dungeon, I am having fun in I will. For non-raiders like me the end of the game can be depressingly low on content. If the end has very little for you what is the rush?
I am, by no means, a rush to end game. That's not my style either. In fact, I like to do alot of adventuring in addition to "regular game play". I remember taking weeks, literally, off of adventuring in order to just explore when playing EQ, EQ2, and Vanguard. That doesn't really change my puzzlement much at wanting to turn off XP.
From what the devs are saying, there's going to be a ton of content for non-raiders at all levels of the game, including mid-game and end-game.
I support having a toggle to turn off XP gain. I think it would be simple and easy to implement. I think I would use it myself, perhaps on more than one character.
If you wish to remain the same level as a friend - the original idea in this thread - then turning off XP works perfectly. But I don't support being able to save the XP for later, or channel it into some other gain. I feel that way because of the long history of 'creative' players finding ways to exploit a given feature.
I have no doubt that some players will find a way to gain benefit in certain situations by avoiding the gain in level. Being able to bank the XP - or channel it elsewhere - gives such players a much greater range of possibilites for such exploits. While nothing can stop players from seeking advantages, having to completely sacrifice the XP when they turn it off at least imposes a significant cost on a player who is using the function for unintended puposes.
Zorkon said:Didn't Brad, or Joppa state the plan was to have the system take a "snapshot" of each user at level change and the mentoring would be the user rolling back to what he actualy WAS at any previous level? To mentor down you would simply choose what level you want to roll back to, it would give you the gear you had at the time.
IF that was indeed what they said, then that code to store out the snapshot's would have to already be in at launch, or there would be a whole bunch of players with nothing to roll back too. How to implement that Roll back, is what would take the time and need to come after launce.
I made that suggestion in a thread a long time back - would be awesome if the devs have adopted it! Though I don't remember hearing them saying so...
The only problem I forsaw with a 'random' snapshot was, what if they took one when you were wearing temporary or weird gear for some reason? Even if you knew the snap shot came at a certain point during a level it could still be painful to arrange the gear you want when that moment arrives.
My idea was to have an NPC called the Temporal ... oh I can't remember the name I used... let's say Temporal Banker. You would go to them and 'store' versions of yourself and later you would be able to visit and swap yourself for those versions in order to mentor and you'd have to return to restore yourself.
It has the issue that you have to remember to bank yourself quite regularly, but it's up to you if you want to have those versions available.
Either that or just auto-bank at a certain point each level, but allow elective 'banking' of yourself at any time, any place, I suppose, one version per level, so it doesn't get out-of-hand.
But the Temporal Banker is more immersive ;^)
Kalok said:starblight said:Not sure this will help or not but I think you have to consider that not everyone expects to get the same thing out of Pantheon. I have learned raiding is something I will unlikely want to be part of except on rare occasions. What I do want out of the game is to be able to play with friends in level appropriate content, preferably a dungeon crawl with a chance of good rewards and a high chance of death around every corner. I do not want to have to wait until max level to be able to find this rewarding play style and so if I can limit my progression to keep that challenge in a dungeon, I am having fun in I will. For non-raiders like me the end of the game can be depressingly low on content. If the end has very little for you what is the rush?
I am, by no means, a rush to end game. That's not my style either. In fact, I like to do alot of adventuring in addition to "regular game play". I remember taking weeks, literally, off of adventuring in order to just explore when playing EQ, EQ2, and Vanguard. That doesn't really change my puzzlement much at wanting to turn off XP.
From what the devs are saying, there's going to be a ton of content for non-raiders at all levels of the game, including mid-game and end-game.
Exactly. And if there's a ton of content at any particular level, you will gain experience as you encounter it and level up out of the intended level range of that content before you've seen it all.
Some people will want to stop XP gain just so they can continue to experience content *at its intended level*, never mind to stay at the level of their friends who play less.
disposalist said:Kalok said:starblight said:Not sure this will help or not but I think you have to consider that not everyone expects to get the same thing out of Pantheon. I have learned raiding is something I will unlikely want to be part of except on rare occasions. What I do want out of the game is to be able to play with friends in level appropriate content, preferably a dungeon crawl with a chance of good rewards and a high chance of death around every corner. I do not want to have to wait until max level to be able to find this rewarding play style and so if I can limit my progression to keep that challenge in a dungeon, I am having fun in I will. For non-raiders like me the end of the game can be depressingly low on content. If the end has very little for you what is the rush?
I am, by no means, a rush to end game. That's not my style either. In fact, I like to do alot of adventuring in addition to "regular game play". I remember taking weeks, literally, off of adventuring in order to just explore when playing EQ, EQ2, and Vanguard. That doesn't really change my puzzlement much at wanting to turn off XP.
From what the devs are saying, there's going to be a ton of content for non-raiders at all levels of the game, including mid-game and end-game.Exactly. And if there's a ton of content at any particular level, you will gain experience as you encounter it and level up out of the intended level range of that content before you've seen it all.
Some people will want to stop XP gain just so they can continue to experience content *at its intended level*, never mind to stay at the level of their friends who play less.
The fallacy to this is that there will be multi-level content for most of the content. They've already stated that alot of the areas will have both lower level and higher level content in most areas.
By all means, turn of your XP... I will be not doing that. I think it's a silly idea.
Kalok said:disposalist said:Kalok said:starblight said:Not sure this will help or not but I think you have to consider that not everyone expects to get the same thing out of Pantheon. I have learned raiding is something I will unlikely want to be part of except on rare occasions. What I do want out of the game is to be able to play with friends in level appropriate content, preferably a dungeon crawl with a chance of good rewards and a high chance of death around every corner. I do not want to have to wait until max level to be able to find this rewarding play style and so if I can limit my progression to keep that challenge in a dungeon, I am having fun in I will. For non-raiders like me the end of the game can be depressingly low on content. If the end has very little for you what is the rush?
I am, by no means, a rush to end game. That's not my style either. In fact, I like to do alot of adventuring in addition to "regular game play". I remember taking weeks, literally, off of adventuring in order to just explore when playing EQ, EQ2, and Vanguard. That doesn't really change my puzzlement much at wanting to turn off XP.
From what the devs are saying, there's going to be a ton of content for non-raiders at all levels of the game, including mid-game and end-game.Exactly. And if there's a ton of content at any particular level, you will gain experience as you encounter it and level up out of the intended level range of that content before you've seen it all.
Some people will want to stop XP gain just so they can continue to experience content *at its intended level*, never mind to stay at the level of their friends who play less.
The fallacy to this is that there will be multi-level content for most of the content. They've already stated that alot of the areas will have both lower level and higher level content in most areas.
By all means, turn of your XP... I will be not doing that. I think it's a silly idea.
There will be content for different level ranges in the same zones, yes, but that doesn't mean when you go back to the zone you can 'finish off' part you missed in the previous level range or if you can it will be trivially easy and un-fun.
If you go back to Black Rose keep because the ramparts are level 30, you aren't going to re-do the cellars you didn't get to before, because they are level 20 and would be boring now, but they would have been fun if you'd got to them at level 20 and hadn't leveled past them somewhere else.
A lot of folks will just make alts and visit alternate content that way. That's the way I tend to do it. Some people, though, don't like to make alts, they want to do it all with their main and not miss out.
And then there's the wanting-to-stay-the-same-level-as-your-friends-that-play-less thing.
You don't want to play with your friends or make sure you experience all the content when it's challenging? That's your choice based on your subjective feelings and view. Don't turn XP off.
But there's no fallacy (A mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound arguments).
@Kalok In vanguard there was a dungeon that my group started when we could barely get the quests. I think the monsters were close to 4 levels above us. We had to fight a little at the entrance and gain some levels before we could really enter the dungeon. Before we finished the dungeon, we had out leveled the dungeon to the point that the mobs were trivial too us. This was before we new about the ability to turn off experience gain. This is just one example of many that I found the option to turn off exp gain to be a useful.
I definitely do not expect everyone to find the sacrifice worth it. I will also likely play many alts to revisit areas. Though In this example, I do not think it was even possible to play the area all the way though while being an appropriate level range.
I hope this game will have fun and challenging dungeons around every corner and that it takes so long to level I would never consider turning my experience off. Time will tell. Until then I will hedge my bet and ask for a crazy tool like turn off my experience gain
I’m not against someone choosing to stop XP, they may have a specific reason for it, but Having to turn of XP for friends just shows the leveling process is to fast. Additionally stopping XP could be a problem for extreme twinks as players stop xp just before a new level just to max their possible gear for the snapshot.
HemlockReaper said:I’m not against someone choosing to stop XP, they may have a specific reason for it, but Having to turn of XP for friends just shows the leveling process is to fast. Additionally stopping XP could be a problem for extreme twinks as players stop xp just before a new level just to max their possible gear for the snapshot.
I hope the leveling process isn't fast, but I also hope there *is* a lot more content at any particular level than you could normally encounter before leveling past it. The reason being I want things to do with my alts that I haven't already done. As I said above, though, there will be players that don't like using alts and still want to experience more level-appropriate content.
As for maxing your gear: If it's done at the correct level, which is exactly what switching off XP enables, it's not twinking is it, it's just being thorough. Twinking is when you got your gear handed to you and it's usually gear that wouldn't be available to you at your own level.
Jobeson said: I personally see shutting off xp gain or mentoring as only a good idea if they ruin level scaling. My hope is that players do not become gods.
Do you mean if they make the power progression scale too exponential, so level difference is too pronounced? Presumably if they do that then monsters will do the same, so players won't "become gods"?
Or do you mean they develop the concept of scaling characters down, but make a mess of it? That's exactly the mechanic they will need in order to add mentoring, so if they ruin it, they ruin mentoring?
I'm a little confused by your statement.
Either way, even in EQ where power progression was quite gradual, grouping with friends quickly became difficult when you had different amounts of time to play. You *could* group with someone 7 levels away, if I remember correctly, but it became pretty pointless at about 4 or 5.
We don't want to get a couple of months in and have some at level 20 and their friends at level 10 wondering whether to bother keeping playing, just because we didn't have an XP toggle or some better friend-friendly mechanic, do we?
And even if power/level scaling for mentoring isn't perfect, it would still be less disruptive and 'exploity' than powerleveling and twinking, no? Players inevitably 'become gods' to the content when they out-level it. Adding mentoring would give players no 'excuse' to power level or even twink, really. An XP toggle would go some of the way and be much easier to develop.
disposalist said:HemlockReaper said:I’m not against someone choosing to stop XP, they may have a specific reason for it, but Having to turn of XP for friends just shows the leveling process is to fast. Additionally stopping XP could be a problem for extreme twinks as players stop xp just before a new level just to max their possible gear for the snapshot.
I hope the leveling process isn't fast, but I also hope there *is* a lot more content at any particular level than you could normally encounter before leveling past it. The reason being I want things to do with my alts that I haven't already done. As I said above, though, there will be players that don't like using alts and still want to experience more level-appropriate content.
As for maxing your gear: If it's done at the correct level, which is exactly what switching off XP enables, it's not twinking is it, it's just being thorough. Twinking is when you got your gear handed to you and it's usually gear that wouldn't be available to you at your own level.
The XP bar is a measure of how much time you have in that level, freezing the XP gains stops the clock. This allows for an unnatural amount of time in level, more time to hit your favorite dungeon and milk it for all its rewards with out being force to move on because you out leveled it.
This is Twinking. It may not be the traditional form of it, but the effect is the same. It may also be ok with the community, and thats fine, I’m just pointing out that this can occur.
HemlockReaper said:disposalist said:HemlockReaper said:I’m not against someone choosing to stop XP, they may have a specific reason for it, but Having to turn of XP for friends just shows the leveling process is to fast. Additionally stopping XP could be a problem for extreme twinks as players stop xp just before a new level just to max their possible gear for the snapshot.
I hope the leveling process isn't fast, but I also hope there *is* a lot more content at any particular level than you could normally encounter before leveling past it. The reason being I want things to do with my alts that I haven't already done. As I said above, though, there will be players that don't like using alts and still want to experience more level-appropriate content.
As for maxing your gear: If it's done at the correct level, which is exactly what switching off XP enables, it's not twinking is it, it's just being thorough. Twinking is when you got your gear handed to you and it's usually gear that wouldn't be available to you at your own level.
The XP bar is a measure of how much time you have in that level, freezing the XP gains stops the clock. This allows for an unnatural amount of time in level, more time to hit your favorite dungeon and milk it for all its rewards with out being force to move on because you out leveled it.
This is Twinking. It may not be the traditional form of it, but the effect is the same. It may also be ok with the community, and thats fine, I’m just pointing out that this can occur.
Interesting, I guess I never looked upon level as something used to force a player to move on. Seems a negative way to look at it, though now you mention it, I seem to remember it was used like that to force players to not take on dragons that were lower level in EQ? I'd assumed that was more to stop players killing them when it was trivial for them (and so, stopping others from enjoying that content), rather than spending 'too long' on them.
I still say it's not twinking since you are earning the gear yourself and at the appropriate level/challenge. It would even be possible, if you were lucky, to get all the drops in a lesser time. Seems nasty to force you to move on when you might have been unlucky with drop rates.
Other mechanics, like diminishing returns, could stop players from staying there 'farming' items without punishing the unlucky.
Jobeson said: Players will be able to die a dozen times to lose xp and stay their level. So arguments against twinking don't really apply. Twinks, ahh, find a way. @disposalist I am referring to the common MMORPG leveling trope of 5-10 levels ends making your PC a god to content a few levels below you. Also a hopeless peon to high leveled creatures should you try to attack something a few levels higher than you. If leveling gives you options to use and new tools to solve problems with but not insane number growth in power then level ranges you can group with are much larger solving a ton great deal of the problem.
Assuming there will be Xp loss at death, Thats called an exploit, and players using that to manipulate their level should be permanently banned.