So Joppa said mentoring would be post-launch. In the related discussion I highlighted my concern that it would have made playing with friends of different level progression speeds much easier, so it's ommission will make things quite difficult for me/us.
What just struck me when commenting about death penalty and XP loss is this: -
If mentoring is too much development effort to fit in before launch, how about a simple switch to turn off XP gain in the meantime?
For people like me, it would be very handy, since I care much more about being able to play with them than I do about racing to max level.
Even multiple friends all with different playing time can coordinate via social media these days and just agree to stick to a particular level cap until they can all get together again.
What do we think?
There are a number of games that have the feature to turn off exp gain. From my understanding, it's fairly simple to implement in most situations because the coding is usually there as a developer tool for testing.
The only issue that I have with this is I don't find it to be rewarding gameplay to just stop all exp gain. I would rather see a way to stop level gain but have that experience transfer into earning mastery points. At least this way a player could stay within level range of their friends, but still have a way to meaningfully progress that character in the leveling downtime. I think that when you completely stop experience gains the only form of player progression at that point is either trying to twink out. or working on professions and both of these outlets generally have a hard cap based on a character's level. Whereas adding mastery point gains in addition to professions and gearing gives a player something that they can work on in the short term that helps them in the long term.
I wouldn't mind the option of turning of level exp. Like you (as you said in the other thread) I've got 2 LONG time gaming friends. Whenever we start a new game together we have the best intentions of staying within each other's level range but every single game we play one of us ends up getting left behind...which eventually leads to all 3 of us quitting that game. If we had the option of turning off exp then we could easily say "don't go beyond level 12 until we group up again" ... or even as simple as "we'll leave exp turned off unless the 3 of us are grouped."
There might be a downside to it, or a way to exploit it, but I haven't thought of one yet. Who can think of a reason why this would be a BAD idea? haha
Every now and then this idea comes up and it *always* generates a lot of agreement. Even those that wouldn't want to switch xp off and get nothing for their time playing generally agree that it helps others and doesn't hurt them. I consider it immoral to waste the xp - those mobs *die* for us - yet I too agree.
Another way to play with friends that have less time and stay at their level is to have characters tasked with doing nothing else - so they do not need xp turned off. Spare time can be spent raising up non-allocated characters. I hope we get enough character slots to make this workable.
I wouldn’t see any downside to this at all, a little developer time spent is about it. and a simple toggle and an IF statement shouldn’t be too much time I would think (but also I don't know the code)
To take it a bit further, to something NOT just a simple toggle and IF statement. It would be nice to be able to bank that EXP. Say for example you log in a week later and your buddy has now leveled past you half a level, you just transfer half a level worth of exp. from your exp.bank to your character and your all caught up. It would have to be a one way path through the exp.bank of course.
And also of course, this wouldn’t be the simple change just turning exp off would be
Kalok said:MauvaisOeil said:Can't we select to put all XP gains into the mastery system ? Like it was with AA back in EQ ?
The AA system was a "bolt on" "oh crap!" moment for EQ, not a well thought out system.
It doesn't change anything to the relevance of charging all your experience in that alternate bar to stop the levelling process entirely.
Zorkon said:I wouldn’t see any downside to this at all, a little developer time spent is about it. and a simple toggle and an IF statement shouldn’t be too much time I would think (but also I don't know the code)
To take it a bit further, to something NOT just a simple toggle and IF statement. It would be nice to be able to bank that EXP. Say for example you log in a week later and your buddy has now leveled past you half a level, you just transfer half a level worth of exp. from your exp.bank to your character and your all caught up. It would have to be a one way path through the exp.bank of course.
And also of course, this wouldn’t be the simple change just turning exp off would be
I see it as highly improbable, because EXP might be relative to your own level and your target's level. So grinding lvl 30 mobs while stuck at 27-28 might end up an easier way to reach max level because you won't have to worry about new zones, challenges and increasing difficulty. Unless exp is calculated depending of how much level your pool might contain, which might simply make it completely stuck past a few levels.
While playing Vanguard I fell in love with the gain no exp toggle. We used it all the time for multiple reasons. I agree with others that I would rather have an option to funnel the exp into Mastery, future levels or really anything other than just nothing. DDO does not auto level when you get enough exp. Instead you have to click a button to level and if you don't the game lets you store up to, I think two more levels before it stops letting you gain any exp at all.
As others have mentioned my main reason for wanting no exp gain option is to stay the same level as my friends. I have learned since I played EQ that racing to max level is not how I can best enjoy the game. It was amazing how many times we used the ability in Vanguard.
Another reason we used this all the time I hope will not be an issue with Pantheon. We used it in Vanguard to keep a questline, Dungeon or an area relevant as far as challenge until we were ready to move on. If Pantheon takes a really long time to level then I feel this might not be an issue. But based on what they saying about how big the zones are and how much horizontal progress there will be. I have my concerns people will be able to out-level an area before they are done with it. I do not recall the exact post but I think they said some will get to max level in around 4 months? Lots of speculation in there but the ability to turn off level gain allows people to make sure an area stays level appropriate until they are ready to move on.
Vanguard had another tool for this that was really amazing called brotherhood. You could make a brotherhood with others and share experience. This shared experience worked no matter if the other player was offline, in another zone, or in another group. If you formed a brotherhood while the exact same level, I think only death and quests could split you apart. I was almost always in a brotherhood with my girlfriend and I do not remember our levels ever separating.
I would love to see this implemented into the game. It would come in handy by allowing friends/guilds to stay in the same level range to allow for more grouping time. It could also extend the longevity of level range areas/zones by allowing one to turn off (or at least lower the percentage gained) so that the player doesn't inadvertently "out grow" an area before experiencing all it has to offer.
Grimix said: What about utilizing an alt that you and your friends agree to spend x amount of time with?
So many times, this grand idea has been tried only to fail in the end. I think crafting is the main reason I have seen it fail. Stat with good intentions of gaining no exp and will just craft… But then I need some more pelts. Just a couple It will not hurt to have a little extra exp right? Anyways it is nice to be able to play what ever character you want and not have to worry about it.
In my previous example (my 2 long time gaming buddies) we made characters once that we agreed to ONLY log on when the three of us were on at the same time. Those three characters finally hit level 16 after a year or so. The idea did kinda work but the problem was none of us cared about that character. We were not invested in that character. When we were playing them together each of us individually would have rather been playing our mains because they were more fun. So, sure, I guess the idea works, but it wasn't as fun for us. With that said, I'm not sure turning off exp gain would have worked for us either but I also have NO problem with having that option.
For post-launch mentoring, the system would be easier if you could use all levels of your skills, and not just the maxed out ones. Think about it like this, a level 50 Cleric want's to help a level 20 Warrior level. The Warrior get's damaged, and in-order to heal the Warrior the level 50 Cleric would have to use his maxed out skills to heal him, and not the lower level ones which would cost less mana and still fully heal him.
It would make more sense if you could use lesser versions of the skills to handle this, but sadly as part of the Producer's Letter we found out this won't be possible. The zero experience idea is also a good workaround for implementing the mentoring system.
I think giving people the ability to turn off XP would be a good compromise to not include mentoring. And I would in fact prefer this to having mentoring.
I do wonder how it would impact gaining mastery points. Would they want people to turn off gaining level XP but allowing them to gain mastery points? I think they may need to also disable mastery points because it could cause an imbalance in mastery points and levels.
I don't really want to change the subject, but I do want to point out. With so many people willing to turn experiance off, it shows that EXP loss alone won't be a big enough threat for the death penalty. People really don't care about exp that much (except for the group trying to get to max level)
My real hope is that it will take much longer to level compared to games like Vanguard. If this is the case I will care about experience and will be far less likely to turn experience off. But the recent past gives me doubt and because of that doubt I would like the option to turn exp off. It will do no harm if I end up not needing it. I am also assuming this would be a very easy thing to add to the game requiring very little extra work on the devs part.
You do bring up a good point though if leveling is anything like newer games experience loss will not deter me. But the things that would deter me like permanent item loss, hours to get back my gear, etc. might be enough to make me quit the game as well. Let’s just say for now I am very happy to not being the one to have to figuring out were that fine line is. Because I do see it as an important line to get right. But it is a steep cliff on both sides of the line. On one side people will quit of boredom and on the other people will quit with frustration. I wish the devs all the luck while deciding.
To keep it on topic if it takes a lot longer to level that would make things like the brotherhood all that much more important. I hope the devs see the advantages of tools that help keep friends together.
I kinda prefer it as well anyway. While I acknowledge the prominence of the problem it's meant to solve, I do dislike mentoring as a "bam I'm your level" button that makes character progression feel so... fragile, just a value in a database. Maybe I'm too simulation-minded with my RPGs, but I feel like deleveling should be the result of some horrific curse or disease that you want to avoid, rather than a switch you voluntarily throw to slap a bandage on a metagame issue.
Zorkon said:I don't really want to change the subject, but I do want to point out. With so many people willing to turn experiance off, it shows that EXP loss alone won't be a big enough threat for the death penalty. People really don't care about exp that much (except for the group trying to get to max level)
Very true - I mentioned exactly this in the recent death penalty thread. Also the willingness to form a Vanguard style brotherhood speaks of people more than willing to slow their XP progress significantly.
And speaking of that idea: Brotherhood. I like it very much as a friend-friendly feature. It does feel a bit 'exploitable' as a power-leveling tool though. I can well imagine people offering 'brotherhood' to paying customers.
I know turning off XP feels like quite a 'cost' to be able to play with friends and that it should be encouraged rather than feel it is penalised, but if there is too much of a benefit, it might end up being a meta that is better than the 'real' game.
Perhaps a brotherhood would share XP but at a reduced overall rate so as to make it not-so-bad as turning off XP, but not efficient enough to become a popular powerleveling tool?
I like the idea of non-automatic leveling. That way your Exp and level are not directly linked and you can choose to stay at a specific level range that you enjoy without killing off any progression of any type. I think it would be good to have a significant quest/achievement required to pass certain level marks in general.
As far as “exploiting” grinding full exp at a lower level to use towards higher levels is effectively a non issue. If exp to level and exp per kill grow exponentially killing 1000 level 30 mobs may only give as much exp for killing 100 40s and 10 50s. You are not really gaining much time but are likely decreasing the load on higher level zones. I call this a win win and not any form of loss.
Mentoring still has a place and would not actually be hard to implement. You make a generic lvl 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, and 40 (higher if the cap increases) template character. Anyone in that class that has passed the level marker can unlock that mentor state. In town you go so some form of NPC and activate a desired mentor state. You are locked in that state until you return to the same NPC to unlock it.
You are given a new UI overlay with appropriate ability bars and maybe even masteries that you configure, and your character is equipped with a generic set of gear. For all purpose of scaling, including exp earned and challenges attempted you are that level for that time period. You can access your general inventory but not your equipped gear slots.
Trasak said:I like the idea of non-automatic leveling
Yeah, me too. I've always found it a little 'odd' in games where you hit a certain point and are inexplicably granted new skills and power from nowhere.
The whole concept of gaining 'experience points' comes from pen and paper RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons and the logical and sensible progression is you gain enough experience to be *eligable* to progress to new skills and powers, but you need to train those skills and powers.
To be fair, even Everquest set a precident for not doing it that way, so it's hardly a 'modern MMO' thing, but even so, I'd prefer there was a concept of training, even if it's not every level.
I hadn't really thought about that in relation to my OP, so thanks, those that brought it up.
Yeah, to have some concept of training to level up (and choosing to not if you want to stay lower for a while) would give an immersive way to approach it.
Whether or not you continue to gain/bank XP/mastery or not, I'm not sure, but the concept is good and perhaps less artificial that an XP 'toggle'.