philo said:But that's the thing though: "the reason not to is that some people just don't feel like it." is not a reason. There is no reason not to. If you say no to being a keeper you can always go back and change your mind later.
Saying no is saying: I don't want keys and short cuts in dungeons. I don't want extra benefits without any negatives attached. There is no downside unless you consider more interaction with the world a downside... pop ups on your screen and extra stuff to click.
I have waited years for them to show a reason why anyone wouldn't want to be a keeper? Why we are even given the choice?
@philo You make a good point about; "if it doesn't have a downside, is it really a choice." I wouldn't want to rank it between tradeclasses, because I personally want to be a crafting keeper.
The downside might be, that you can only ping pong between grinding mobs and being a keeper to a certain degree without feeling the impact of the grinds on your options as a keeper. Playing a keeper might require you to really slow things down or find groups/players that also aim for a different experience then the mere grinding of mobs and faster paced exploration. Taking into consideration that most of the content is not aimed to be consumed solo. We're looking at a different mindset here. Nowadays, many players do not have this mind set or might struggle to maintain such immersed pace for an entire playsession.
The reason why the choice of becoming a keeper is given, might just be about that. There might be enough people out there that are just not bothered about it and just want to play their toon and kill mobs, craft, explore the world without going into history or lore.
The mechanics linked to being a keeper might be so integrated into factions, actions, options that in fact it becomes a real choice on how you're going to play in this world with A character. If everyone is following the purple bars above their heads, but everyone has different options within that group...I'm not sure how they'll decide where to go to. Purely based on the amount of options available within the group. Taking this even further; let's say the group decided to follow the pings of 1 groupmember, either the others might not get further pings or they might get different pings all the time. So each ping would become a crossroad of debate and discussion. This is in the scenario where everyone in the group is a keeper (and where becoming a keeper wasn't a choice at all). If you want that everyone in the group experiences impact of their choices and you design the pings so that it's the same for everyone in the group all the time (because this allows the group to have all heads turned to the same direction without having to make compromises), you're actually ending up with the familiar questlines-highways of old. Finally these questline lookalikes, are no longer a choice, they just unfold in front of you if you want it or not.
Another thing; How many people would just tag along with a Keeper? They are not interacting with the world in the same way as the Keeper. Only the Keeper will have those clicky options and ping updates. So the person alongside them, would just run around. Killing the occasional mob that's in the way. Possibly just running back and forth doing not much else. So from that perspective, it might be more challenging for Keepers to find groups and consume Perception related content. Or to do so in a frequent fashion over playsessions. This to me could be considered a good chunck of downside to being a Keeper, because this game is designed for groups of 2+. (Yes, of course, there will be friends that play together. But I'm thinking serverwide with current players' attitudes and expectations.)
Like I said earlier, Keepers might not be willing to team up with every Pick up Group that sends an invite. Although that Keeper has the desired combatclass. And these (for me) are also hard calls to make. They are not punishing me, it was just my choice and consequence as a Keeper.
It will be time consuming, like taking a craft. Not having other choices doesn't mean it has no consequences. If you consider the playtime unlimited of course it's not an issue. But it will be at least for the first months as you will have to choose what you actually farm, and for longer for low playhours players.
There are many things in the game I am going to choose not to do, even though they have "no downside" simply because I won't want to spend my time that way. I haven't decided if I'll end up being a Keeper or not yet, but I'll have to make that choice based on what I want to spend my in-game on.
There are places I might never see
There are trade skills that I'll never try out
There are race/class combos (MANY of them) that I'll never play
There are quests I'll never do
There are social gatherings I won't attend
There are NPC's that I'll never talk to
There are cities I'll never explore
I've accepted the fact that I'll be missing out on things based on the choices that I make about my game play time. Choosing to be a keeper or not is one of those things.
Ranarius said:There are many things in the game I am going to choose not to do, even though they have "no downside" simply because I won't want to spend my time that way. I haven't decided if I'll end up being a Keeper or not yet, but I'll have to make that choice based on what I want to spend my in-game on.
There are places I might never see
There are trade skills that I'll never try out
There are race/class combos (MANY of them) that I'll never play
There are quests I'll never do
There are social gatherings I won't attend
There are NPC's that I'll never talk to
There are cities I'll never exploreI've accepted the fact that I'll be missing out on things based on the choices that I make about my game play time. Choosing to be a keeper or not is one of those things.
And none of those things do you specifically have to choose not to do them. You just pick what you want to do.
You don't choose not to go to an area (as a choice with an npc)...you just dont go.
You dont choose not to play that race or class...you just choose what you do want to play.
You don't choose not to talk to the npc, you just don't.
You dont choose to not do a quest...you just ignore it or dont do it.
It seems odd that we have to opt out. I dont see that as being necessary. I guess it isnt that big of a deal in the larger scheme of things. I just dont get it...never have. This is an old conversation that seems to get brought up everytime perception comes up and I keep hoping that there is new info we have received that would explain why we have to opt out at all?
"You do have to "choose" to do it. We have seen the NPC in thronefast in a stream that presents you with the option to be a keeper or not."
...
"It seems odd that we have to opt out."
I'm not trying to argue at all, I agree with what you're saying in general (if it ends up that people feel like it's required then everyone will do it, etc) but I am really confused about the technicals of it. Is it something you have to choose TO do? Or is it something you have to opt out of? I never saw the video you're referring to, I joined in Jan and have watched/read everything since then but probably only 10% of what was released from 2014-2020.
MauvaisOeil said:This is an old conversation that seems to get brought up everytime perception comes up and I keep hoping that there is new info we have received that would explain why we have to opt out at all?
To save the hassle. I don't understand why you can't get it.
I feel like you dont get it...it is more of a hassle to have to opt out. Thats the whole point...
Maybe I'm not explaining it well? There are probably a half dozen threads that discuss this already where people have similar concerns. Maybe going back and reading through some of those might explain it better than I am?
Ranarius said:"You do have to "choose" to do it. We have seen the NPC in thronefast in a stream that presents you with the option to be a keeper or not."
...
"It seems odd that we have to opt out."
I'm not trying to argue at all, I agree with what you're saying in general (if it ends up that people feel like it's required then everyone will do it, etc) but I am really confused about the technicals of it. Is it something you have to choose TO do? Or is it something you have to opt out of? I never saw the video you're referring to, I joined in Jan and have watched/read everything since then but probably only 10% of what was released from 2014-2020.
The question is why we have to opt out/in if there is no downside? If there are no negatives to being a keeper, why doesnt everyone just have access to the perception system automatically? It seems unnecessary.
There probably is some negative that we just dont know about. There has to be the way it is implemented. Otherwise it doesnt make sense.
The video where we saw the keeper npc has been a few years...it might have been the video where they showed the thronefast gray boxes? Unsure if that is the right one...but its out there.
Anyway, again, seems like this is causing more confusion than anything. In the end its not a big deal. As far as picking and choosing battles this is way down the line of importance.
Some people are just not interested in the lore and don't want to be bothered by dialogs popping up.
The example devs first created of the key used to get to Gnashura in Halnir Cave is perhaps not a great one, because that was engineered to show a distinct practical use of the system beyond lore, whereas subsequent information and comment has always suggested that you do *not* need to use perception to do anything practical in game. All the actual quests and other activities will have non-perception-based ways to access them.
If there is, indeed, a practical use of being a keeper, like short-cutting the process of 'finding' a boss encounter, then, yes, there's no reason to not be a keeper. It would be worth the 'annoyance' of pop-up dialogs and the like every now and again.
But if, as has been said by devs subsequently, it is solely lore-related and there is no practical advantage to it, there will be plenty of people that just won't want to be hassled by the pop-ups or other distracting dialogs (as they see it) that will only lead to stuff they are uninterested in.
Imagine you were going to buy a movie. You can have the one with the director's commentary or the one without and they are the same price. You are uninterested in the director's commentary, BUT why not get it just in case one day you are for some reason?
Imagine now that the director's commentary version, during the film, makes a little beep and/or pops up an icon, even a very tiny one, that indicates there's a director's commentary for each and every scene that has one.
Now you have a very good reason to not have the director's commentary version even though it's the same price.
It's not a great analogy, because a game *does have* dialogs that *might be* practically useful, so the perception pop ups are even more annoying as you can't just train yourself to ignore them as they *might* be something you need to pay attention to.
The more I think about it, the more of a great idea the keeper/perception system is. I'm someone who, in the past, is guilty of skipping over 'colour' and 'lore' content because I'm 'busy playing'. I try not to because I know the more I know about the background lore, the more enjoyable and immersive the 'game' actually is. But in the heat of the moment, I often skip...
This has often meant that, when I encounter some clicky-information 'thing' in a game, I scan or even skip the text thinking "oh, it's just flavour/lore stuff" and later on realise I've missed an actual quest pointer or even a quest starter because I assumed it was just some 'flavour' text.
With the keeper/perception system, when you get a perception ping you *know* it's a lore/flavour thing. You can choose to ignore it, or just remember to follow it later when you aren't grouped, but you can be sure, either way, you are only missing something you have *chosen* to miss and aren't missing anything that will make a material 'difference' to the 'game'.
People who love the lore will love it. People who don't want the lore will (should) love it (or rather the option to totally avoid it!). People who *want* to get into the lore more will (should) love it, too, because you *know* what *is* lore, to deal with when you feel you have the time, and what is something more 'practical' you should deal with now.
As long as VR do this right, as I think they are, it has great potential to be a really valuable innovation.
TL;DR:
Because the keeper/perception system is clearly differentiated from the non-lore, practical 'game', people can *choose* to ignore or to get deeply immersed or to 'dabble'.
Lore hounds will opt in and love the pings and subsequent investigations.
Hardcore gamers will opt out and never be bothered by unwanted distractions.
Those wanting to dabble can opt in, see the pings, but choose to follow up later, knowing they aren't missing anything 'vital' and 'game' related right now (I really hope the keeper system has a journal...)
Excellent.
Ranarius said:I'm not trying to argue at all, I agree with what you're saying in general (if it ends up that people feel like it's required then everyone will do it, etc) but I am really confused about the technicals of it. Is it something you have to choose TO do? Or is it something you have to opt out of? I never saw the video you're referring to, I joined in Jan and have watched/read everything since then but probably only 10% of what was released from 2014-2020.
These are some of the videos. Mind you, some are quite old streams.
Skip to 53.10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-VljOeRfis&list=PLN39y5i_H0FmV_9hc5KSHknL9YsImScP1&index=1
Check out the first 4 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK3HJTSZG6c&list=PLN39y5i_H0FmV_9hc5KSHknL9YsImScP1&index=2
How can you unroll at becoming a keeper: Check out 1.22.36
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_epQH3HW-x4&list=PLN39y5i_H0FmV_9hc5KSHknL9YsImScP1&index=5
Or view this one at 18.50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzph6ivZtao&list=PLN39y5i_H0FmV_9hc5KSHknL9YsImScP1&index=10
Value of Keepers in disposition recognition: see at minute 38.00 and philo for you: 53.24
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYVDrfR6ZsM&list=PLN39y5i_H0FmV_9hc5KSHknL9YsImScP1&index=4
Also have a look through this thread :
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6880/the-perception-system
It still might not be as definitive for you as you like. But if you take a step back from the discussion and look at the overall message they are trying to get across, you should have a good idea of what kind of choice Perception is all about.
The arching phylosophy above/around the perception design might be the social value that Neph's is looking for. It's not not so directly transferred into a method of communication within the game. It cannot be read as clear as black ink on a white piece of paper or 1+1= 2. It's just there and it has the potential to create social experiences and unique wide range characterspecific groupplaysessions. It can be an opportunity to create those fond memories of being in a world that is an mmorpg. Another example of how you can interpret social value as a Keeper see the following video at 11.22. Kilsin explained a bit better and concise https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnkaFS6w6w0&list=PLN39y5i_H0FmV_9hc5KSHknL9YsImScP1&index=8
@Barin Thanks for the links! I'll check em out :)
@disposalist I am typically not a "commentary on" kind of guy but your anaolgy reminded me of a short funny story. It was the first time I watched the movie Elf. My wife and I are in the habit of watching until the credits are finished (feels like a way to respect the people that made the film, etc...silly I know, but we do it). In this instance the credits finished, and then the movie started playing again on it's own. Just as I was about to turn it off I heard Will Ferrel's voice explaining something. So I sat back down and we continued to watch the entire movie again, except this time with Will Ferrel commentary lol.
Dispo said: The example devs first created of the key used to get to Gnashura in Halnir Cave is perhaps not a great one, because that was engineered to show a distinct practical use of the system beyond lore, whereas subsequent information and comment has always suggested that you do *not* need to use perception to do anything practical in game. All the actual quests and other activities will have non-perception-based ways to access them.
If there is, indeed, a practical use of being a keeper, like short-cutting the process of 'finding' a boss encounter, then, yes, there's no reason to not be a keeper. It would be worth the 'annoyance' of pop-up dialogs and the like every now and again.
I agree with this. Are you suggesting they are removing the key from Halnirs cave and not adding any other practical uses to perception? That is the whole problem. Do you get extra exp for completing perception quests? Do you have access to mobs/areas you might not have if you weren't on that perception quests? I don't see how they make it optional in its current form...
If they leave it like we have seen it there is no reason why a player would ever not want to be a keeper. We agree on that.
Barin said: Value of Keepers in disposition recognition: see at minute 38.00 and philo for you: 53.24
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYVDrfR6ZsM&list=PLN39y5i_H0FmV_9hc5KSHknL9YsImScP1&index=4
The dev team has been asked this question multiple times and have never given a good answer. That link is just one example of many. CP compares it to crafting. It costs money to craft. In game currency. It requires components to craft. Are you suggesting that perception will somehow cost a player an in game resource? We haven't seen anything like that.
If it will then that is a valid answer...but we haven't been shown that it will cost anything but a click of the mouse.
When someone asks "is there any reason not to become a keeper?" Responding: "Is there any reason not to become a crafter?" is not a valid answer and that is why this has been brought up so many times.
How do you post all those links and not have the one where they talk to the NPC where you choose to be a keeper...? Anyone have that one handy?
philo said:The dev team has been asked this question multiple times and have never given a good answer. That link is just one example of many. CP compares it to crafting. It costs money to craft. In game currency. It requires components to craft. Are you suggesting that perception will somehow cost a player an in game resource? We haven't seen anything like that.
If it will then that is a valid answer...but we haven't been shown that it will cost anything but a click of the mouse.
When someone asks "is there any reason not to become a keeper?" Responding: "Is there any reason not to become a crafter?" is not a valid answer and that is why this has been brought up so many times.
Perhaps "Time" is your cost? Does that count? I get your point though, it's still valid.
philo said:How do you post all those links and not have the one where they talk to the NPC where you choose to be a keeper...? Anyone have that one handy?
I've tried but I just couldn't find it. I hope that Bagrim can pitch in on this. :) I would only to a thread which you already got into.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/9421/perception-system-what-we-know-so-far