I finally had a chance to watch the video followup to yesterday's dev stream (thank you for that, Joppa and Machail!). Mechanically, I really like how the Perception system is coming along - for lorehounds like me it will definitely be a lot of fun. (If anyone hasn't seen the video yet, it's up on the Pantheon youtube channel).
I also understand the decision not to gate content or have item rewards associated with Perception - because if you do that, players will see it as a requirement, and engage with it for the wrong reasons.
However, I think that the Perception system needs to have some social value - some way that someone being a Keeper can provide a tangible benefit to other players that they interact with. For example, crafting has a social value in that a skilled crafter can provide items for other players to use - potentially, items they may not be able to get any other way. It won't exist (at least not at launch) in Pantheon, but Vanguard's diplomacy sphere allowed skilled diplomats to trigger regional buffs that benefitted other players in the same part of the world.
I feel that Perception needs to do something for the player population at large as well. Can a skilled keeper help open shortcuts in dungeons or find secrets for their party? Trigger spawns? Intrinsically determine the weakness of a combat encounter? Can they learn of unique quests (with rewards) that can then be shared with their groups or raids? Can they open up access to new services from factions for other players? There are a lot of possibilities.
It would be awesome if VR could tell us what the social value of engaging in the Perception system will be.
I'm actually worried about the "Social Value" for what the Perception system might entail.
i've played with all kinds of players and well... I'm just imagining how such a system can work with a Murder Hobo and a "gotta go fast" type of player and they are in a group with you. I mean if your just a druid in the back healing and your aiding a group to go beat X mobs and you find a NPC you could interact with while the others only see it as a target they can only attack. Wouldn't that mean that you'll possibly miss out on a whole series of events you could do as well and would therefore have a window closed to you forever due to someone elses actions? it'll only take 1 person in your group to ruin a whole perception line for you, after all. Whether done on purpose or by accident, you'll still have to live with the flag on that toon of said action and the only way for you to remove it would be to reroll another toon.
I agree that it would be nice to know. As it seems right now the perception system is a solo game inside the game that doesn't effect anything except your own story. It would be cool if you could tell an npc "these guys are with me, they're cool" (in a more role play sort of way haha) which might open up something for your group as well.
Also good point znushu, that would be a shame. I actually remember when I first started playing EverQuest. I was a Ranger and my whole backstory was to protect nature and animals. I tried so hard for like 10 levels to never kill an animal (no wolves or spiders in the Kelethin area would die by my hands). It became obvious fairly early on that the only thing effected by my decision to protect animals was my own story and it was putting quite a strain on who I was willing to group with. If I was in a group that wanted to kill animals for exp I had to step out. It also became obvious that my own story didn't matter one bit in that game so I eventually made the choice to ditch that idea so that grouping and leveling would be easier.
I love the perception system as a storyline mechanic. But have concerns about the practicality of it. As others have pointed out what is going to be the value other than the storyline. Feal without some sort of reward that is a real part of improving one's character beyond just a personal story it will become too much a solo game within an MMO and is counter-intuitive to the basis of what has been pitched for Pantheon.
Personaly I am scratching my head a bit at the whole 'if you miss one single detail that may or may not be obvious you can get locked out of that storyline forever' concept. I don't understand the benefit of locking people out of content for mistakes or for not being perceptive in RL. its one thing to miss a skill check, its another to not see something on your screen and lose access to a questline by mistake. Makes me NOT want to do any perception work blind and just wait until other people have screwed it up in front of me. we'll see! obviously can't offer valuable quest rewards in situations like this? which diminshes the value of doing the quest in the first place? if its just storyline are we really going to let some people not access it? maybe that stuff seemed super obvious to Joppa, because they put it all in, but coming in blind I can see a lot of people missing details. weird. but the system does look cool!
OneForAll said:Personaly I am scratching my head a bit at the whole 'if you miss one single detail that may or may not be obvious you can get locked out of that storyline for ever' concept. I don't understand the benefit of locking people out of content for mistakes or for not being perceptive in RL. its one thing to miss a skill check, its another to not see something on your screen and lose access to a questline by mistake. Makes me NOT want to do any perception work blind and just wait until other people have screwed it up in front of me. we'll see!
He did mention several times after saying that that there would be ways to get that opportunity again. You wouldn't be locked out of it forever, you'd just have to prove your worth in some other way. At least that was my take away.
Ranarius said:OneForAll said:Personaly I am scratching my head a bit at the whole 'if you miss one single detail that may or may not be obvious you can get locked out of that storyline for ever' concept. I don't understand the benefit of locking people out of content for mistakes or for not being perceptive in RL. its one thing to miss a skill check, its another to not see something on your screen and lose access to a questline by mistake. Makes me NOT want to do any perception work blind and just wait until other people have screwed it up in front of me. we'll see!
He did mention several times after saying that that there would be ways to get that opportunity again. You wouldn't be locked out of it forever, you'd just have to prove your worth in some other way. At least that was my take away.
oh shoot i must of missed that
If Perception tells you theres a big treasure and you dont get a treasure i feel it will be ignored by many ...kinda useless....i like lore but i dont like lore that doesnt come true. I think its a bad decision to not reward a high perception. If you want something because of it just make a high perception char, whats bad about it ? Some might benefit from a high perception some might benefit from other skills whats wrong with it?
I understand the if you get good rewards it will be mandatory part ...so just dont make it the only skill that can give good rewards and its all fine. I kinda think about such systems as another form of alternate advancement.
The perception system seems like an awful big time and manpower investment for it to not have any effect on character progression, just personal lore discovery.
Rather than make it something people can just ignore if they are not interested I would do the oposite. Make perception the system that makes Pantheon different from Everquest. Drive almost everything through it in some way shape or form.
Want to find a clue for your epic quest? Thats a perception check based on your class lore rank.
Want to find a harvest cluster? Thats a perception check on your lore MineCraft (he he)
Want to know what those random animal body parts do? Thats a perception check on animal anatomy cross checked with crafting lore.
Want to hunt down/trigger this rare spawn? Thats a sequence of perception checks that require responses in a multi stage process.
Want to keep your group busy for 2-4hours? Issue a group quest with clues and different perception checks that pool each others different lore levels to unlock the next leg in the combat involved scavenger hunt.
If I recall correctly, in one of the early streams with Aradune and Coh in blackrose keep (or in Valnir's Cave), they actually talked about this.
And I do believe Coh had asked a similar question. It's that scene where they pass a fallen rock or pillar and someone gets a perception ping but some don't. And Coh needs to walk back and look again.
The idea behind it was that you don't have to be a Keeper. But if you have a Keeper in your group it could actually lead you to places where you would otherwise not end up. Or to content you otherwise would not encounter. (Somewhat similar to the pass-trough wall in another of Coh's streams. That was a less subtle method of offering things in 1 area.) This because a group without a keeper, can still function, grind, adventure and kill bosses.
Perhaps this is only part of an answer or no answer at all to you. But this to me, allows the Keeper design to offer a social aspect to players.
I like how HemlockReaper was creative enough to turn it into a profitable business. That is yet another way to look at it! :)
About the reward being linked to the perception design. To my understanding Joppa actually explained it well enough. Perception is more about your place in the world and understanding how the world works. You might get most rewards if you don't have perception. You just wouldn't have the flavour or depth of the game. Similar to how some players are devote min maxers and will avoid wasting time on things that do not provide them enough personal boost in the game.
The social value is that it gives players something to talk about, not everything has to be about some concrete reward. Dialog, communication, is how social relations are formed and reinforced. If VR aims to build a living breathing world of its own, with a community to support it, then the game needs something for players to bond over that is more than just player's value to one another in achieving technical progression.
I think the pereception system is a great and ingenious way of bringing players out of the gameplay-reward loop that players are conditioned to expect today.
I do like Trasak's suggestions of perception being tied into other mechanics like harvesting, mob conning, tracking, bascially anything that relies on being perceptive. And I agree with Nephele's original post that the more perception can somehow be tied into the wider social aspects of the game so that Lore Keepers are valued in a group setting would really be beneficial. That said, I really like the perception system and what we've seen so far, though as others have pointed out, I am concerned about inadvertantly getting locked out of percetpion lines and hope there are many ways to get triggers to open up again.
Joppa did mention a couple times that this system will teach you to slow down, enjoy the world, explore, etc. So it might also just be something that we naturally get used to and end up really enjoying. It's probably just hard to see right now because we haven't had a chance to try it ourselves yet....and most of us are in the mindset of "let's just get through the content and level up" because we've been conditioned to think that way by other games. Hopefully it works to help us slow down and enjoy :)
Thorndeep said:... That said, I really like the perception system and what we've seen so far, though as others have pointed out, I am concerned about inadvertantly getting locked out of percetpion lines and hope there are many ways to get triggers to open up again.
It's that blade that cuts both ways. If you want choices to matter, you want to experience that. You might have a different experience then your friend going from starter city to your first dungeon. The end goal however is reached by both. When it comes to end rewards, they already went into that during the stream. Players might follow different paths, but many times they'll lead up to equal rewards or of similar value. (This is me, sticking my neck out here. So don't generalize this.)
It can feel like you've missed out, however. They also stated that they are working on a way to get back to your perception ping at some point to continue forward. So if you're unsure that you're going to correct way, perhaps there are ways to reconnect. It might just not be all the time and between every Perception ping.
If I'm going to bet, the most "errors" that people want to go back on, would be made in the beginning of learning the game and how this perception system works. When players get more and more familiar with it, they might take their time more in order to really scan the place and think about the information that they have gathered before advancing.
You don't want full circles all the way. If there were, ones players figure that out, there is really no value in making a choice. You'd just run the mill untill you get it correct, the way you wanted to. Instead of experiencing the game, the way the devs want you to. It would hollow out many storylines, if you knew that you can just circle around and start over.
To take a certain perception path, is not extremely faulty. We're used to thinking this way, because we learned in other games..you need to follow strict lines to get the best value for your input. I think, we really need to keep a flexibel mind here. Don't stress about responding to a perception ping too much. It just helps you to become part of the world and form your characters identity. (again similar to a DnD campaign, it's not bad that you're not hitting all the boxes right, as the DM had imagined it. The campaign will continue without feeling that you're missing out on things. At the end you'll have your own story to tell about how you went trough that campaign.)
The way I have understood perception and keepers still hasn't changed. It seems to me to be a way of discovering lore. That lore may well lead you to encounters/content, but that content will be discoverable in other ways or just by stumbling over it, but via perception, you will be better lead (more directly? quickly?) and better armed (with information) when you get there.
It is a more immersive way of doing everything you can do anyway, the way lore always has been, though a lot of people have always ignored.
Some are largely uninterested in the lore and that's fine. Just find stuff and fight stuff. Just play the game. It'll be great fun and you will still get an appreciation for the world and some of its stories.
For those interested in the lore, this is a fun and interesting way of discovering it. You will feel more immersed and have a deeper appreciation of the world.
To answer Neph's OP, though, I too would be interested and happy to see a more tangible benefit to perception, *but*, it is almost against the point to make it somehow 'functional', so I'm good with it not being that way.
Barin999 said:Thorndeep said:... That said, I really like the perception system and what we've seen so far, though as others have pointed out, I am concerned about inadvertantly getting locked out of percetpion lines and hope there are many ways to get triggers to open up again.
It's that blade that cuts both ways. If you want choices to matter, you want to experience that. You might have a different experience then your friend going from starter city to your first dungeon. The end goal however is reached by both. When it comes to end rewards, they already went into that during the stream. Players might follow different paths, but many times they'll lead up to equal rewards or of similar value. (This is me, sticking my neck out here. So don't generalize this.)
It can feel like you've missed out, however. They also stated that they are working on a way to get back to your perception ping at some point to continue forward. So if you're unsure that you're going to correct way, perhaps there are ways to reconnect. It might just not be all the time and between every Perception ping.
If I'm going to bet, the most "errors" that people want to go back on, would be made in the beginning of learning the game and how this perception system works. When players get more and more familiar with it, they might take their time more in order to really scan the place and think about the information that they have gathered before advancing.
You don't want full circles all the way. If there were, ones players figure that out, there is really no value in making a choice. You'd just run the mill untill you get it correct, the way you wanted to. Instead of experiencing the game, the way the devs want you to. It would hollow out many storylines, if you knew that you can just circle around and start over.
To take a certain perception path, is not extremely faulty. We're used to thinking this way, because we learned in other games..you need to follow strict lines to get the best value for your input. I think, we really need to keep a flexibel mind here. Don't stress about responding to a perception ping too much. It just helps you to become part of the world and form your characters identity. (again similar to a DnD campaign, it's not bad that you're not hitting all the boxes right, as the DM had imagined it. The campaign will continue without feeling that you're missing out on things. At the end you'll have your own story to tell about how you went trough that campaign.)
For me, having the opportunity to open up perception paths is not so much about correcting a "faulty" decision but more about having a little flexibility in case things happen that are outside of your control or you happen to be off you game one day. Personally, I love exploring and taking my time but not all groups are like that. To get locked out of some lore because you were with a group that didn't care feels a little harsh. Or maybe one day I'm tired and miss some vine I was supposed to click so now I'm forever punished? That seems overly punative. It would be like saying once a group fails to defeat a boss they don't get to try again. If I want to put the effort into figuring something out, hopefully there will be a path to achieving that, not one chance and done.
Doford said:Maybe have a confirmation button and info telling you how many more clickies can be found so you dont miss out by accident. Or would that be too easy?
I'd prefer, using the scenario of the spriggen, if like the first attempt you just ran to the fallen tree and came back you would get the same response. But if later, you noticed the things she wanted you to see and you came back, the line would open up again giving you another opportunity to continue. It doesn't have to be made obvious that you missed something but the door is not closed if you later take your time and catch what you missed.
OK, so I understand the perception system like this. If I am not correct, then cool.
I did not click the vines and Vha Ryn uses dialogue 1.
Or I clicked the vines and I get dialogue 2. that leads me to Vay Mir.
Vay Mir now has 2 Diaolgue paths for me and I can now just run to the log and not try to percieve my environment or try to. The choices will lead me to 1 - 4 dialogue paths depending on how I play it out. I learn of the story and lore in the snippets given by what I have discovered and the path that opened to me at that time.
It was also mentioned that the dialogue paths are semi closed to me at that point after I make my choices and I move further with the path that I did choose. Say Path 3 out of the 4. I missed the Abomination Path and since it wasn't offered, I wouldn't have known of it. (assuming I did not google path choices) But some time in the future I am out and about and I happen to get a flag on me for killing Sleepless. Now I am back near Vay Mir again harvesting fungi and I decide to see if she has anything to say and see she offers the Abomination path now (because I am flagged from killing Sleepless) and I can choose to follow that to the unknown paths 1 through how ever many I open after that. Of these new paths again if I did not open certain choices I can be semi locked out, but things I do in the world can bring me back again or again to find closed paths now open or even that there are now paths 7 - 10 to choose from.
So it seems that perception lines open and close continuously based on my choices in game at all times and I as the player would have reason to keep coming back to all areas of the game to continue to intereact with NPC, much like a giant spiders web of dialogue lines in a choose your own adventure story path. So then there is no correct path to ever take as all the paths would be the correct one or correct for my Character and the path of another players Character would be just as correct.