Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

In Game Quest Book Issue

    • 1273 posts
    May 20, 2020 4:20 PM PDT

    When I first saw the quest book (in a dev stream I think) I had a thought that I just kept to myself.  Then in today's Producer's Letter (https://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2020_may_producers_letter/) I was reminded of that thought.  This time I'd like to share it and see what thoughts you have on the topic.


    Alright, my initial thought when I saw it was "Oh, cool, I like it! It'll be so organized, I won't have little scraps of paper all over my desk with notes about quests." etc.

    Then as I thought about it more I started feeling (sad?) about the quest book.  I feel like it takes away some of the mystery of the world. 
    Will the quest book be auto populated when you speak to an NPC? 
    Will you automatically know that that NPC has a quest for you?  
    Will the Objectives be spelled out for you in the quest book?

    One thing I liked about "old school" quests was that you had to decide after talking to an NPC if it really was a quest or not, and what exactly the NPC even wanted.  There was some problem solving, some guess and check, some asking around, etc.  

    So - I really like the idea of an organized quest book within the game, but I don't like the idea that it might take away some of the problem solving on our part.  I acknowledge the fact that we really don't know much about the quest book yet so my worries might be completely unfounded.  But for now, they are my worries.

    What are your thoughts?

    • 1921 posts
    May 20, 2020 4:49 PM PDT

    Will the quest book be auto populated when you speak to an NPC? I hope so.
    Will you automatically know that that NPC has a quest for you?  Yes, with what they've demo'd with perception, so far. (No, if you fail the perception check, ping, skill, whatever)
    Will the Objectives be spelled out for you in the quest book? I hope so.

    Personally, I have no interest in searching 400,000 locations and 10,000 NPCs with random phrases to determine step 2 of my task, quest, or story. 
    There's an entire separate genre of games like that, and if I want that experience, I will go play them. :)
    As the past 6 years of public design goals has indicated, a portion of Pantheon will be a 'theme park' experience.   As such, at least make it fun, and not tedious, in my opinion.

    • 416 posts
    May 20, 2020 6:03 PM PDT

    I am very happy that the quest books appears like it will be very well organized with the location of the quest giver and that it will keep the dialogues I've had with them all. It definitely alleviates the tedium of having to write it all down myself. This does not necessarily mean that we will be lead by the nose for what to do next, for that we will have to wait and see. And if each step is not clearly laid out, it makes having such a quest book even more important to review exactly what was said.

    • 1273 posts
    May 20, 2020 6:37 PM PDT

    Thorndeep said:

    I am very happy that the quest books appears like it will be very well organized with the location of the quest giver and that it will keep the dialogues I've had with them all. It definitely alleviates the tedium of having to write it all down myself. This does not necessarily mean that we will be lead by the nose for what to do next, for that we will have to wait and see. And if each step is not clearly laid out, it makes having such a quest book even more important to review exactly what was said.

    I definitely like the idea of being able to review exactly what was said.  I'm just not sure I like the idea of a list of objectives...unless maybe if they appear after completion just to keep track of what you've done so far. 

    • 416 posts
    May 20, 2020 7:06 PM PDT

    I don't mind the list of objectives knowing that we will not have a mini map nor markers over quest givers heads. Just because I know I need to find a particular individual in a particular region doesn't tell me exactly where they are. There still could be a good deal of exploration or problem solving to figure out exaclty where they are located.

    • 2756 posts
    May 21, 2020 2:36 AM PDT

    It's a valid concern and a good question. Whilst I do not want to be scratching notes on hundreds of bits of paper, I also don't want to be pulled around by the virtual nose and having my quest journal indicate when something is a quest or not.

    The answer I think is for the journal to not be a 'quest' journal, but to just be 'a journal'. It should log all dialogs for you, effectively being your digital memory.

    As with many things in game, I expect my character to be better than me and a lot of mundane skills are not 'fun' to reproduce. Memory is one of them. I don't have a great memory. It would be good if my character did. It wouldn't even break the game if my character's memory is, effectively, perfect.

    The thing VR can then do to make an immersive, useful quest journal, but not trivialise the whole thing, is to allow you to tag some comments you *think* are important and to remember quest steps you've been through *without* hinting at the next one.

    TL;DR: It's totally doable to have a journal and avoid scribbled notes without trivialising the quests.

    • 1479 posts
    May 21, 2020 3:29 AM PDT

    Agreeing with disposalist. The log could be sorted by zone then NPC and show dialogs and exchanges there without making it "pick active quest" etc... The wow quest system is too much of a themepark feature.

    • 1281 posts
    May 21, 2020 7:40 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    Will the quest book be auto populated when you speak to an NPC? I hope so.
    Will you automatically know that that NPC has a quest for you?  Yes, with what they've demo'd with perception, so far. (No, if you fail the perception check, ping, skill, whatever)
    Will the Objectives be spelled out for you in the quest book? I hope so.

    Personally, I have no interest in searching 400,000 locations and 10,000 NPCs with random phrases to determine step 2 of my task, quest, or story. 
    There's an entire separate genre of games like that, and if I want that experience, I will go play them. :)
    As the past 6 years of public design goals has indicated, a portion of Pantheon will be a 'theme park' experience.   As such, at least make it fun, and not tedious, in my opinion.

    There are two separate "quest systems".  There is the Perception system, which you talk about, *AND* a traditional quest system where you have to talk to NPCs.

    • 1921 posts
    May 21, 2020 8:34 AM PDT

    Have they demonstrated a "traditional question system where you have to talk to NPCs" in-game, yet?

    • 1785 posts
    May 21, 2020 8:48 AM PDT

    I think Ranarius has a valid concern.  However I'll also say that this depends as much on the way quests are written and implemented into the game as it does on the journal UI.

    I think it's ok for the journal to help us remember the name of the guy 3 zones over who said they would pay us a bounty for every bandit bandana we bring them.

    It's also appropriate for the journal to help us remember that in order to reforge the Sword of the Ancients, we need to find the jewel called the Eye of the Maelstrom, along with six of the blade fragments that were scattered long ago.

    It's not appropriate for the journal to tell us exactly which monsters to kill and where they live to get all of those things - at least, not unless we've actually done some manner of investigation in the game and 'learned' that knowledge.  Figuring that information out should be part of the quest itself, and not just something that's given to us for free.

    These are simplistic examples but my point is this.  Hand-holding is bad.  Leading us by the nose is bad.  Helping us remember the things we learn as we play through the game is fine.

    I consider this to be relevant whether we're talking about simple tasks, longer quests, or full-on perception storylines.

    • 368 posts
    May 21, 2020 9:23 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    Will the quest book be auto populated when you speak to an NPC? I hope so.
    Will you automatically know that that NPC has a quest for you?  Yes, with what they've demo'd with perception, so far. (No, if you fail the perception check, ping, skill, whatever)
    Will the Objectives be spelled out for you in the quest book? I hope so.

    Personally, I have no interest in searching 400,000 locations and 10,000 NPCs with random phrases to determine step 2 of my task, quest, or story. 
    There's an entire separate genre of games like that, and if I want that experience, I will go play them. :)
    As the past 6 years of public design goals has indicated, a portion of Pantheon will be a 'theme park' experience.   As such, at least make it fun, and not tedious, in my opinion.

    Agree

    If something is to be tedious, then let it be something tedious in the game world (a scripted encounter or something etc) and not a tedious time sink in a book.


    This post was edited by arazons at May 21, 2020 9:24 AM PDT
    • 1273 posts
    May 21, 2020 9:33 AM PDT

    If something is to be tedious, then let it be something tedious in the game world (a scripted encounter or something etc) and not a tedious time sink in a book.

    I'm not really sure what you mean by this.  How is a tedious encounter different than a tedious quest line?  Can you give an example or be more specific?  I'm just trying to understand your point.

    • 1921 posts
    May 21, 2020 9:51 AM PDT

    Nephele said:.. These are simplistic examples but my point is this.  Hand-holding is bad.  Leading us by the nose is bad.  Helping us remember the things we learn as we play through the game is fine.

    I consider this to be relevant whether we're talking about simple tasks, longer quests, or full-on perception storylines.

    Ideal points, yet, how do you handle it?  In this specific case, how do you handle it?  What I mean by that is..

    Let's say you don't want to hold the hand of the player.  Fair enough, good goal.  Do you want them to consume the content?  Yes/No?
    If No, then why does the content exist? :)
    If Yes, then via what method do you permit them to consume the content?

    Put another way, if they don't know about the quest, how are they going to do the quest?
    Further, say they just happen to "Hail, Job, Health, Task, Quest, Bank, Guards" every NPC in the game.  Now they know the quest is available.  Ok, that part is done.
    Now, you want them to actually do the quest.  The quest giver either says something cryptic, or they say something specific.  It's a step, task, goal, objective, whatever.  Or not.  This isn't a grey area.  It's a yes/no binary state machine.

    In the Quest book model/implementation/framework, after you speak to the quest giver, and they want you to do something, how do you indicate that?
    Either it's an objective or it's not an objective.  Ok, so it's a objective, but.. it's hidden?  Then how is the player supposed to know what to do if there's not some indication of location or goal?  If it says "You'll find more in zone ABC" then is that leading them by the hand or the nose?  Or simply allowing them to consume the content, at all?

    I am totally fine with things being challenging.  Yet, punishing a paying customer for ignorance they can't avoid is not challenging.  It's just punitive. 
    If there's no legitimate method for a player to acquire the knowledge they need to progress the quest, task, or story, then how are you enabling them to consume the content?
    Some answers are:  There's a probable path.  They might find it. 
    Sure, then are the odds in their favor?  Do they need to stand in one square meter of a 500,000 square meter world?  Bon chance, mon ami! Those odds aren't looking so good, without further context provided.

    If the book implementation is going to have value, then the Objectives need to be there. 
    If they're not there, you're simply punishing the player or forcing them into a very low odds guessing game, neither of which are particularly fun or challenging. 
    At least, that's how I see it. :)

    • 1273 posts
    May 21, 2020 9:58 AM PDT

    vjek I like your explanations and your arguments but I would like to counter one statement/idea if possible.  

    "I am totally fine with things being challenging.  Yet, punishing a paying customer for ignorance they can't avoid is not challenging.  It's just punitive."

    I just can't get behind this.  I don't consider it a punishment if a player can not figure out how to complete a quest as much as I'd consider it a punishment for a player to die in a dungeon.  If the dungeon should be challenging enough to kill players until they are strong enough to complete it why not a quest line?  I mean, I get where you're coming from, but isn't it OK for SOME quests to be tough enough in the problem solving/exploring deptarment that not all players will complete them?  I know my anaology isn't great because a player can simply gain levels and go back to the dungeon and complete it later where an unfinished quest can stay unfinished if the player doesn't figure out how to finish it. 

    There is such a huge spectrum of people's abilities to problem solve (or willingness to even try).  I just think it's ok for some players to simply say "no thanks, I'm not doing that quest" while others say "That sounds like a great challenge, I'm going to work on this for the next three months until I figure it out."  

    I'd like to quote one of my favorite Tenets here:  "An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding."  I just want quests to feel rewarding when I finish them.  If it's too simple I won't feel like I accomplished much.


    This post was edited by Ranarius at May 21, 2020 10:01 AM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    May 21, 2020 10:00 AM PDT

    How can it be tough enough without being completable, at all?
    I don't mean philosophically, I mean in the context of the book implemention being discussed in this thread.

    • 1273 posts
    May 21, 2020 10:02 AM PDT

    I am missing your point I think.  Whether there is a quest book in-game or not the quests will all be completable.  

    (or are you saying that for some players the quest will not be doable because they either can't solve the problem mentally or aren't willing to put in the work?)


    This post was edited by Ranarius at May 21, 2020 10:03 AM PDT
    • 1273 posts
    May 21, 2020 10:08 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    ...The answer I think is for the journal to not be a 'quest' journal, but to just be 'a journal'. It should log all dialogs for you, effectively being your digital memory...

    The thing VR can then do to make an immersive, useful quest journal, but not trivialise the whole thing, is to allow you to tag some comments you *think* are important and to remember quest steps you've been through *without* hinting at the next one...

    I really like these ideas...an interactive journal where it automatically logs the conversation text but you can interact with it how you like.  Highlight parts, grab and drag a part to the objective list, etc.  

    • 1921 posts
    May 21, 2020 10:11 AM PDT

    Ranarius said:

    I am missing your point I think.  Whether there is a quest book in-game or not the quests will all be completable.  

    (or are you saying that for some players the quest will not be doable because they either can't solve the problem mentally or aren't willing to put in the work?)

    No.  I mean, say you want them to either get the quest ( at all ) or complete the quest (at all).

    In the book implementation being discussed in this thread, how do you accomplish those goals.  As in, pixels on the screen, what makes that happen? 
    How do you give the paying customer the information they need to consume the content?  What specific words, images, or otherwise do you show the paying customer in the book?

    • 1273 posts
    May 21, 2020 10:20 AM PDT

    Ok, I understand the question, that's what I'm asking as well.  What I'm hoping for opinions on is how that question is answered :)  Your answer from earlier made it sound like you want them to give you all the details so you don't have to do any problem solving (which is fine if that's what you enjoy about questing).  My answer is that I don't want so many details.  Am I understanding correctly now?

    • 1921 posts
    May 21, 2020 10:29 AM PDT

    What amount of "I don't want so many details" would be put into the Book Interface, in-game, that wouldn't be leading them by the hand, or leading them by the nose?

    • 1273 posts
    May 21, 2020 10:56 AM PDT

    Umm...I thought I already answered that.  I don't know if we're just going in circles or what.  I'm wondering what your answer is (and other people's answers :))

    Here's mine (for now, definitely open for discussion!):  "an interactive journal where it automatically logs the conversation text but you can interact with it how you like.  Highlight parts, grab and drag a part to the objective list, etc."  Stolen from disposalist.  

    If you're asking what dialogue will look like, how vague or specific it should be, then my answer to that is the entire range.  Some quests should definitely be super specific, but some should be super vague.  It all depends on the quest, the NPC, what they want, what they know about what they want, etc.

     

    Edit:  Sorry for using the word "should" ... obviously this is just my opinion of what I would like.  


    This post was edited by Ranarius at May 21, 2020 10:57 AM PDT
    • 42 posts
    May 21, 2020 11:04 AM PDT

    Here are my thoughts on questing or the book in general:

     

    1.) When it comes to the quest acquistion, I'm ok with my quest log/journal identifying who gave me the quest and potentially what zone he was in.  I'm also good with even recording in the journal what was specifically said to you or the dialogue given.  What I don't want is for the quest log to identify what zone is needed to accomplish this quest.  Depending on the quest contents itself, I'm ok with identifying the individual in the quest dialogue, but I'd prefer descriptions of the character and not so much mentioning of them by name.  (If an NPC knows who they need to assist them in a quest, why would they not seek them out themselves.

    2.) My hope is the vagueness or cryptic nature of the quest will not define what zone is needed and also what steps are the upcoming steps of the quest.

    3.) Finally and I think this was a given, no markers or clear definitions that an obtained no drop item relates to a specific quest.  Also no notifications that you've got the necessary items to complete a quest.

     

    I'd say the way I've seen questing done in such manner the best most recently is Divinity Original Sin 2.  They leave it vague enough to make a person explore and talk to many people in most quests.  (I could be misremembering, but the quests where they keep it vague is the best)

    • 2756 posts
    May 21, 2020 11:18 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    Have they demonstrated a "traditional question system where you have to talk to NPCs" in-game, yet?

    Several streams ago when they first started showing the GUI for the Perception/Keeper stuff they also showed the alternative GUI for normal dialogs in the same situation.

    It did not show how those 'quests' or 'perceptions' might become anything like a quest journal, but they did make clear that the perception/keeper stuff was separate to the normal dialogs and did talk about being able to do the same quest lines with both traditional and perception-based dialogs.

    They did not say that *all* quests would have both ways. They did not say that there would not be quests only available to each method, but they did specifically show the same encounter giving dialog about the same situation in the two different ways.

    At the time I suggested that perhaps perception will simply give much more lore behind a quest or make quests easier to discover through insight or whatever, but the same stuff will be available and findable to 'normal' people too.

    • 416 posts
    May 21, 2020 11:20 AM PDT

    First, I would want to know whether I've received a quest or not, then the name of the person I need to find or items that I need to aquire and what zone they are in at least, as long as more specific details can be uncovererd through dialogue with other ncp's, exploration and/or perception triggers.

    • 1921 posts
    May 21, 2020 11:27 AM PDT

    Ranarius said: ... but some should be super vague.  ... 
    Ok, and what would an example of "super vague" look like, as an Objective, in your opinion?  As in, what words on the screen would fit that description or category of "super vague"?

    I'm not being pedantic purely for the sake of it.  Sincerely.
    Personally, I don't think there's a tunable surface area here for the mechanic.  It's either leading them by the nose, or it's not used at all. 
    Whatever you say for "super vague" will be "leading them by the nose" to someone else. 
    At least, that's what the opinions in this thread are indicating to me.