By now, most of us are familiar with the usual categorization of MMOs: ‘Themepark’, ‘Sandbox’, ‘Sandpark’, ‘Themebox’. I’ve often seen EverQuest regarded as the ‘father’ of all themeparks, but as I sit here pining for Pantheon and reflecting on why, I realize none of these labels fit.
Looking at it from either extreme, if a themepark means carefully curated and isolated content meant to be digested-as-designed, and a sandbox means a ‘blank slate’ world left to player imagination and construction, neither of these labels seem applicable. Even if we try to fit early EQ somewhere in the middle, it’s not like the game ever had all that much ‘sand’ with which to build, but neither were it’s ‘rides’ ever on rails or self-contained.
If such labels are indeed necessary, EverQuest might best be regarded in a class all its own - or at least one shared with only a select few titles from a similar generation: a playground.
Like a child in a playground, a player starting in EverQuest is ushered forward with little more than their tools (or toys) and their imagination. At an early age, they may be cautioned against tackling challenges beyond their ability, but just as a toddler can still find their way onto the monkey bars, nothing prevents a low-level player from stumbling into Befallen...even if it inevitably ends in a bruised knee. But in the course of that journey, the player may get a glimpse of the ‘big kids’ effortlessly overcoming those challenges, and themselves be inspired towards one day doing the same.
To the degree that EverQuest’s dungeons and quests may have constituted ‘rides’, they were far closer to the experience of climbing a jungle gym than riding Space Mountain. There were no queues, your experience was not limited to a 4-seater car, and you were free to go in whichever direction you pleased. And yes, sometimes you might climb to the top and find a bully has already claimed the slide for himself and his friends.
Thankfully we already know Pantheon plans to adhere closely to this ‘playground’ philosophy in designing its world and dungeons. But something I haven’t seen discussed often are the tools/toys with which we interface with all of this.
Among my many frustrations with ‘modern’ MMOs, none is perhaps so great as the way class toolkits have been pared down solely to their value in combat. The ‘fantasy’ of being a sorcerer extends only so far as the number of fireballs at your disposal, your interactions with the world around you restricted to which enemies need to be slaughtered to fulfill the next quest on your shopping list.
I miss the utility and the ‘toys’ that enabled class fantasy to exist in the world at large. I miss necromancers existing as liches, and trees that were actually disguised druids casting SoW on random passers-by. I miss infiltrating places where I was KoS under the guise of another race. I miss gifting a newbie with a pack of summoned gear. I miss being able to target myself with an ice comet just to show off. I miss the adrenaline of using my tools to explore: of hoping invisibility didn’t wear off or that you wouldn’t run into anything that could see through it and angling yourself so that levitation would carry you just over that pit trap.
In order for the playground to reach its full potential, we need the toys that amplify our imaginations and change the way we interact with it: the towel that acts as our cloak of invisibility or slowfall, the paper-plate mask that turns us into a monster, the seeing-stone that lets us see what’s hidden around us. And while we know to expect things like illusions and summoning spells in Pantheon, I also hope to see the return of things like soulbinding, sentinel, invisibility (and its counters), levitate, and so on.
What ‘toys’ do you want to see in Pantheon?
I agree in almost all respects, other than the characterization of EQ. To me EQ was very much a sandbox. You could go in almost all directions (granted most would get you killed) and since you weren't the great hero or great hero's sidekick bound to a story line you had far more choices than in a game like LOTRO.
Didn't someone have a saying along the line of "we make worlds, not games" (chuckles)? These suggestions tie in very much with that saying.
I note that they will appeal to the player base a lot more because gaining levels will hopefully be very slow. I am more likely to take an hour just to do something useless if it costs me .01 level than if that hour could have gotten me to level 90 (and I often have gotten to 90 in an hour in EQ2 - not one of that game's most appealing features to me.)
AstralEcho said:I miss the utility and the ‘toys’ that enabled class fantasy to exist in the world at large. I miss necromancers existing as liches, and trees that were actually disguised druids casting SoW on random passers-by. I miss infiltrating places where I was KoS under the guise of another race. I miss gifting a newbie with a pack of summoned gear. I miss being able to target myself with an ice comet just to show off. I miss the adrenaline of using my tools to explore: of hoping invisibility didn’t wear off or that you wouldn’t run into anything that could see through it and angling yourself so that levitation would carry you just over that pit trap.
Everquest isn't the father in my eyes so much as Dungeons and Dragons. The entire idea was pretty much picked up from DnD. Everything you said are DnD mechanics that EQ was built to copy into a game engine. Some people want to go on an epic quest to find a holy grail, others want to go gather herbs to save a sick kid and encounter some goblins. You have the playground world and the tools/toys that make it fun. All of those tools point back to DnD and different class mechanics. Do you want to go with a magical illusion, that may be detected as magic or run out of time. Do you want to just go in a disguise anyone could see through? I think MMORPGs lost sight of their original goal, and focused more on combat for all things. Combat is known and safe. They don't allow for clever options as those are the "easy" tricks people just follow from the guide written online.
I hope we have the options to do these things again, but the world changes just enough from time to time to make you have to look around and see what is possible so guides are not turnkey.
What's it called or classified as doesn't need to be an argument. I agree with your idea of having toys to play with that immerse us into the world. The goal isn't just to level up and kill stuff (and craft stuff). the goal is to BE in the world. I have gotten the feeling from watching dev streams that they are on the same page as you. Their passion when they speak about exploring the world, danger, risk, checking things out, etc. is self evident. I get excited when I hear the excitement in their voices. I think we're in the right place!!
Ranarius said:What's it called or classified as doesn't need to be an argument. I agree with your idea of having toys to play with that immerse us into the world. The goal isn't just to level up and kill stuff (and craft stuff). the goal is to BE in the world. I have gotten the feeling from watching dev streams that they are on the same page as you. Their passion when they speak about exploring the world, danger, risk, checking things out, etc. is self evident. I get excited when I hear the excitement in their voices. I think we're in the right place!!
Agree... Well said sir.....
EQ was not a themepark by any stretch of the imagination.
Games like WoW and various WoW/GW clones that have quest driven storylines that move you from zone to zone without having to decide for yourself where to go are "themeparks".
I think it's disingenuous to use labels that were invented after the creation of EverQuest to attempt to describe EverQuest - or really, to use labels at all.
We can say that EverQuest was open-world because of the way the world was designed. Paths were not linear, and at any point, you had the option to attempt to travel anywhere you wanted to.
We can also say that EverQuest had directed content in the forms of quests and patterns of escalating challenge within individual zones, although frequently the quests were more obscure and less obvious than in many subsequent games.
We can say that EverQuest had a clear progression of difficulty in the form of character levels and associated content.
If we want to apply a game-style label to EQ, the closest modern label to use would be "sandpark". Essentially, sandbox with theme park elements. However, that label was invented well after EQ launched, and well after instancing and linear, quest-driven content became the norm in many games. Thus, while it's close, it's not really accurate either. And that's the problem with labels.
On the original/intended topic:
AstralEcho said:
Among my many frustrations with ‘modern’ MMOs, none is perhaps so great as the way class toolkits have been pared down solely to their value in combat. The ‘fantasy’ of being a sorcerer extends only so far as the number of fireballs at your disposal, your interactions with the world around you restricted to which enemies need to be slaughtered to fulfill the next quest on your shopping list.
I miss the utility and the ‘toys’ that enabled class fantasy to exist in the world at large. I miss necromancers existing as liches, and trees that were actually disguised druids casting SoW on random passers-by. I miss infiltrating places where I was KoS under the guise of another race. I miss gifting a newbie with a pack of summoned gear. I miss being able to target myself with an ice comet just to show off. I miss the adrenaline of using my tools to explore: of hoping invisibility didn’t wear off or that you wouldn’t run into anything that could see through it and angling yourself so that levitation would carry you just over that pit trap.
I do agree with the general sentiment that every aspect of class design tends to be focused on combat and that this is a missed opportunity. Allowing players to visually express their class identity is important. However, I think this goes beyond visual expression and even beyond classes themselves. If we want Pantheon to be a world rather than just a game, we need to think about how players can interact with that world, all-up. Both combat gameplay as well as non-combat gameplay. Cosmetic functions, utility functions, and social functions. Can you as a sorcerer flip through your spellbook while leaning against a wall? As a warrior can you take a few swings at the training dummy next to the guard post? As an adventurer, can you toast your friends with a mug of ale in the tavern? Can you sit on the chairs and benches? Can you haggle with merchants to try and get a little bit of a discount? Can you gather firewood and start a campfire to cook that rabbit you caught earlier? Can you try to convince the noble to go easier on the townsfolk to avert a rebellion, instead of violently putting down an armed rebellion. It's a lot bigger than just classes or just cosmetic/utility things that classes can do.
AstralEcho said:By now, most of us are familiar with the usual categorization of MMOs: ‘Themepark’, ‘Sandbox’, ‘Sandpark’, ‘Themebox’. I’ve often seen EverQuest regarded as the ‘father’ of all themeparks, but as I sit here pining for Pantheon and reflecting on why, I realize none of these labels fit.
Looking at it from either extreme, if a themepark means carefully curated and isolated content meant to be digested-as-designed, and a sandbox means a ‘blank slate’ world left to player imagination and construction, neither of these labels seem applicable. Even if we try to fit early EQ somewhere in the middle, it’s not like the game ever had all that much ‘sand’ with which to build, but neither were it’s ‘rides’ ever on rails or self-contained.
If such labels are indeed necessary, EverQuest might best be regarded in a class all its own - or at least one shared with only a select few titles from a similar generation: a playground.
Like a child in a playground, a player starting in EverQuest is ushered forward with little more than their tools (or toys) and their imagination. At an early age, they may be cautioned against tackling challenges beyond their ability, but just as a toddler can still find their way onto the monkey bars, nothing prevents a low-level player from stumbling into Befallen...even if it inevitably ends in a bruised knee. But in the course of that journey, the player may get a glimpse of the ‘big kids’ effortlessly overcoming those challenges, and themselves be inspired towards one day doing the same.
To the degree that EverQuest’s dungeons and quests may have constituted ‘rides’, they were far closer to the experience of climbing a jungle gym than riding Space Mountain. There were no queues, your experience was not limited to a 4-seater car, and you were free to go in whichever direction you pleased. And yes, sometimes you might climb to the top and find a bully has already claimed the slide for himself and his friends.
Thankfully we already know Pantheon plans to adhere closely to this ‘playground’ philosophy in designing its world and dungeons. But something I haven’t seen discussed often are the tools/toys with which we interface with all of this.
Among my many frustrations with ‘modern’ MMOs, none is perhaps so great as the way class toolkits have been pared down solely to their value in combat. The ‘fantasy’ of being a sorcerer extends only so far as the number of fireballs at your disposal, your interactions with the world around you restricted to which enemies need to be slaughtered to fulfill the next quest on your shopping list.
I miss the utility and the ‘toys’ that enabled class fantasy to exist in the world at large. I miss necromancers existing as liches, and trees that were actually disguised druids casting SoW on random passers-by. I miss infiltrating places where I was KoS under the guise of another race. I miss gifting a newbie with a pack of summoned gear. I miss being able to target myself with an ice comet just to show off. I miss the adrenaline of using my tools to explore: of hoping invisibility didn’t wear off or that you wouldn’t run into anything that could see through it and angling yourself so that levitation would carry you just over that pit trap.
In order for the playground to reach its full potential, we need the toys that amplify our imaginations and change the way we interact with it: the towel that acts as our cloak of invisibility or slowfall, the paper-plate mask that turns us into a monster, the seeing-stone that lets us see what’s hidden around us. And while we know to expect things like illusions and summoning spells in Pantheon, I also hope to see the return of things like soulbinding, sentinel, invisibility (and its counters), levitate, and so on.
What ‘toys’ do you want to see in Pantheon?
I know some of the toy's your talking about. And I agree with most everything your saying. As for Themepark/Sandbox, Don't care what it's called as I have seen moor argument's on what's themepark vs. what’s Sandbox than I can count.. really couldn’t care less... But your "Playground" description sounds good and makes as much if not more sense than those other two goofy names somebody started and 20 others interpreted.
What I find REALLY important in your post is your comment "class toolkits have been pared down solely to their value in combat." Exactly THIS. and you can see it already being asked for on this site... My Theory is that the kind of people that Raid, Rush to Max, Min/Max, those that concentrate solely, or at least mostly on the Battle aspect's of an MMO are also those most likely to frequent a web site for said MMO.... notice I sad MMO and not MMORPG. The "toys" as your referring to are more inviting to the RPG related group (here is where the MMO group says "then play on a RPG server") this group as a general rule doesn’t frequent Gaming web sites, doesn’t stick there neck out to have the competitive raid group bite it off instead we sit back and watch our "Worlds" be turned into "Games". This last group also makes up 85% of an mmorpg player base however, the silent majority
Lol.. Notice how many have actually totally ignored your question "What ‘toys’ do you want to see in Pantheon?" and instead nitpicked your use of Themepark vs. Sandbox vs. Playground, Thanks to them for displaying my point for me.
From the view of an EQ Wizard... here are some of the toys EQ had that I spent a lot of hours on and would like to see and improved on with Pantheon
Glimpse "Increase Magnification by 55%" (although execution of this in EQ was terrible, with these large Zones in Pantheon a spell like this and/or binoculars could be a useful toy to take up a bag slot)
ShadowStep "Causes you to momentarily step into the realm of shadow, reentering reality a short distance away." (a bit useless in regular combat but in a Duel was a Wizards only salvation against a Tank Class)
Eye of Zomm "Conjures a magical eye that allows you to scout dangerous areas." (had a lot of fun with this one, did a lot (hours upon hours) of "pre-raid, Dungun crawl" recon with it )
Identify (If they would include reason to use it)
Bind Sight "Covers your face in magical strands, allowing you to see through your target's eyes." (another Recon tool, could even jump from one Mob to another, with a range of 10000 and no LOS problems a level 16 could generally scout a complete higher level Dungun from the entrance if you tried hard enough. A Wizards Method to see if MOB-X was up when a Ranger wasn’t around.)
I think EQ was originally, the original, free-world themepark MMORPG but it was all brand new and the player base basically over-ran the theme park and made up their own way to do things.
Dropping items on the ground to trade between characters on same account
Multi-questing turn-ins
Quad kiting, swarm-kiting, root-rotting, fear-kiting, Pet pulling, charm turn-ins
Ninja-looting, training, auction houses, open raids
Heck, every imaginable behavior was created by the players and the Dev's didn't even imagine these in their themepark.
So, I htink that's the best way to do it. Create an ayslum and let the inmates run it.
> . < I cannot read the title of this thread without thinking the OP was starting a different type of thread. The NSFW kind.
On the point of the actual intend of the thread. What you are describing to me is more the difference between a MUD and a MUSH. Most MMOs are focused on the combat aspects of a MUD rather than the RP, skills, or shared imagination of a MUSH. There are plenty of interesting ideas for no combat effects but they are hard to code and hard to justify the development cost when the combat aspects are what pay the bills, and the bills are all late.
I'm having a hard time of even thinking of things - because it's been so long since this was part of a game I played. Even in my most recent DnD campaign that lasted two years, the DM just basically ignored everything I wanted to do that was outside the scope of his story. For example, I wanted my character to spend time foraging, collecting trophies, creating potions and such, but since none of that effected his story he just said "sure, you can do that" and it was just a waste of time so I stopped doing it.
Some things I'd like to see (non combat related) in this game? Hmmm...(just brainstorming here, I'm sure some will be bad ideas lol)
Well, traveling is a thing already I guess. Wizards and Druids (and others?) will have the ability to teleport themselves and later on their groups.
Run speed buffs
The other things I listed are already trade skills (potions, food)
I like the idea of collecting trophies but I'm not sure how that'll fit in with limitted storage space. And when I say trophies I'm specifically talking about things like bear teeth, dragon claws, evidence of kills your proud of.
How about scars on your character? But I also have no ideas how to implement that :) (I'm talking about after character creation, not during)
Or general changes in your character, height, weight, aging, skin color (sunburns? Tans?)
Could your character learn to do ticks? Backflips to show off?
I guess that's all I got for now, not feeling very creative at the moment lol.
One thing I liked about Everquest was that it was mostly all brand new territory for developers and players alike; game systems, game world, social aspects.
I remember reading somewhere at one point in time that the devs from EQ1 talked about unintended uses of many systems... Pet pulling, FD pulling, kiting etc.
These are all things that we take for granted these days. But they were things not intentionally added for the purpose they now serve.
My hope for Pantheon is that there is enough uncovered ground (mmo tropes/mechanics) that there are plenty of opportunities for the game to surprise us and make us think outside the standard MMO box as it has been implented / cloned over the years.
I would like to see taking the "toys" a step further, for instance: If illusioned,your name plate changes, and you become "an orc" or you have no name plate at all, so you can become that random tree in the forest that casts buffs or that storage box in the corner. Likewise, speech having an aggro radius, group speech a larger aggro radius than normal speaking out loud and tells only working if you are within close proximity of the person you are sending a tell to, like a hands breadth away as if whispering in their ear. If there is a way to tell if you are using discord or the like a larger radius, still. Let the NPC's behind the door wonder who is talking outside that door.
Manouk said:I would like to see taking the "toys" a step further, for instance: If illusioned,your name plate changes, and you become "an orc" or you have no name plate at all, so you can become that random tree in the forest that casts buffs or that storage box in the corner. Likewise, speech having an aggro radius, group speech a larger aggro radius than normal speaking out loud and tells only working if you are within close proximity of the person you are sending a tell to, like a hands breadth away as if whispering in their ear. If there is a way to tell if you are using discord or the like a larger radius, still. Let the NPC's behind the door wonder who is talking outside that door.
I kinda like where this is going, except for the "tells only working if your close" part. I'd like to be able to chat with my friends in-game while playing, even if we're not in the same part of the world.
I liked EQ because it was a cruel world that didn handhold you and it was very possible to die if u did something wrong.
It didn have many quests at all (but thoose it had where meaningfull) you could go wherever u been able to lvl wise and earn some upgrades / xps. Todays MMORPGS just say uh the cave is going to collapse ...but u can stay in there for an eternity and nothing happens ...in eq you would have died.
The risk is kinda missing in modern games and i hate quest driven content so much.... i rather go explore a dungeon and find some rare guy down there that drops his loot instead of being with the other 1000000 ppls that did the same quest and got the same reward.
And the mentioned tools/toys to play very much add in to that world of risk and imagination comes true, and isnt just limited to flavor text that just doesnt happen.
I like it OP. I was resilient to the idea EQ is a playground at first but with the explanation you made I've found myself in agreement. EQ is not a themepark - like what Blizzard popularized. It's not a sandbox - very little can be done to change the world. EQ is different.
I think a few similarities between a playground and EQ in a broader sense involve.
Voluntary Rules (to better play a game)
Co-operation
Challenge
Friendly Competition (Closest part to a Sandbox)
Curated Experiences (Closest part to a Themepark)
Transcendence or Make believe
Freedom
I also agree we need toys in pantheon in the same way EQ had class Toolkits
Do you expect these toys to come from a team who works towards the game for their own visions, messing around as often as they actually build?
Or from a team who works 9-5, reasonably working out the game's problems and fixing them?
VR, I think, will bring us some toys, they feed off Brad's vision, at least. They do allow for free thought in openly making the game for a niche of players.
However, VR also seems to spend a great deal of time and effort making the game familiar for those who feel that fun involves various anxieties like guild prestige or efficiently killing things. It is a very logical thing to do, I was guilty of it myself right here on these forums, not too long ago.
Monumental games, within their niche and time of course, might include EQ, FF11, Original WoW, PubG, Fortnite, original DOTA, Minecraft, Diablo 1/2, Demon/dark Souls 1, and so forth. These games all happen to be full of ridiculousness that looks like problems from the outside. Yet you play them, and they stick, so well that games are built simply to emulate them.
I'm sorry but I just don't see that level of quality in VR as it is. Alot of it really feels like business. The climbing system is as much there to gate content or increase play time as it is to make unique toys, same with the weather system, the prestige system, the perception system, the living codex, and so on. So beautifully logical, but fun? Yes, but probably not monumentally so. I wouldn't look forward to many actual toys.